Prayers to Mary

[mdifrancesco]

Of course Jesus did not sin. My point is that you took a Scripture passage and then interpreted it. You used your own words, not another passage. You did it again in the next part of this post. But you wanted only Scripture in responses made to you. We have to play by the same rules.

I know you’re new here and probably don’t know this, but when you quote from a website it’s considered good form to provide a link (or other reference) to that website.

Mary did need a savior, but not because she sinned. It’s not true that only sinners need saviors. Mary didn’t sin but she still needed to be protected from Satan. What do you think Satan would have done to Mary if he had gotten his claws on her? I think Satan would most likely have tried to stop the birth of Jesus. Mary definitely needed a savior, both before and after Jesus’ birth.

I didn’t state that prayer “is not like worship.” I said that prayer is not the same as worship.

Here is a definition (along with synonyms), from another website:

1. address to God: a spoken or unspoken address to God, a deity, or a saint. It may express praise, thanksgiving, confession, or a request for something such as help or somebody’s well-being.
2. addressing of God: the act or practice of making spoken or unspoken addresses to God, a deity, or a saint
   “kneeling in prayer”
3. religion
   Same as prayers
4. something wished for: something that is wanted or hoped for very much
   “My only prayer is that it doesn’t last too long.”
   PLURAL NOUN
5. religious service: a religious service at which prayers are said
   “attended evening prayers at seven”
   13th century. Via Old French preiere < Latin precarius “obtained by entreaty” < precari (see pray) ]
   not have a prayer to have not even a slight chance of achieving something
   I don’t have a prayer of getting the manager’s job.
   Thesaurus
   NOUN
   Synonyms: entreaty, appeal, plea, request, desire, hope, wish, supplication, imploration, petition
   Synonyms: invocation, meditation, contemplation, devotions, chant, petition, supplication, appeal, imploration"

bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+prayer&FORM=DTPDIA

I don’t see the word “worship” used at all in this definition. And I picked this site at random.

I will have to respond to this part of your post in another post. I’m sorry but I’m having computer problems and I keep losing my responses (and it’s also going very very slow).

No problem at all. But what is weird is that when I took the “Size” out of your post and then quoted it in my reply it showed up as very small. I’m not sure why that is. Maybe you can test different font sizes - maybe ‘2’ would be a good setting. It’s weird that this is happening because I haven’t seen it before but I have my computer zoom level at 150 percent (because it has a large screen) and with another member’s posts I found that her post was at the correct size but her signature was absolutely tiny. I could hardly see it. So I apologize for saying your font size is too large. Maybe someone who is more computer-literate can help.

Okay, first:
I know you’re new here and probably don’t know this, but when you quote from a website it’s considered good form to provide a link (or other reference) to that website.
I did not quote a website because I did not use a website (or a quote from anyone else for that matter). I happen to teach the Bible (for the last 22 years) and these are my own thoughts and references.
Second:
A Savior SAVES. Please tell me how you interpret this?
1 John 1:8-10
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”
The fact is that everyone EXCEPT Jesus has sin. There is NO scriptural reference that Mary (or anyone else for that matter) lived a sinless life.
The notion that ANYONE could be sinless defies the very nature and purpose of Jesus dying on the cross.

 

[Cristian_B]

To prove that, with God’ grace, we too can be sinless.

We will be sinless, we are not sinless. You are saying that she will be sinless and that she *was *sinless. And I fail to see why did she have to be sinless.

 

[mdifrancesco]

None of your quotes prove your point, nor are they the least bit convincing.

These are not MY quotes. These are from the Word of God (the Bible). It is not my job to convince anybody. that is the job of the Holy Spirit. If this offends you, I cannot apolgize for God’s word.

 

[mdifrancesco]

mdifrancesco,

Not a single scripture you provided indicates that all human beings with out exception are sinners. I realize you interpet it that way, at least to this point due to the fact that you hold this theological principal.

But I would ask you to re-read fairly, no where in any one of these passages does it say all human beings are sinless. The closest you got was with Romans 3, but it was proved that you did not understand the reference to the Psalms. The source material Paul quotes explicitly states it is that among “the fools who say in thier hearts: there is no God” there are none who do good.

And if you state that I can’t prove it, then how do you prove that there are (or were) any that were sinless?

 

[crazzeto]

And if you state that I can’t prove it, then how do you prove that there are (or were) any that were sinless?

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=1&l=6&f=s#x

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zachary, of the course of Abia; and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elizabeth. 6 And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame.

This is just one example from scripture, there are more if you want to see them.

 

[Cristian_B]

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=1&l=6&f=s#x

This is just one example from scripture, there are more if you want to see them.

That doesn’t mean that they were sinless. That means that they had their sins forgotten. Read Ezequiel:
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live." ~Ezequiel 18:21-22

Now, because they lived in righteousness (the Bible tells us they were just, thus righteous), their sins have been forgotten, and that is why they had no blame, because their blames have been forgotten. All forgiveness of sins comes from the blood of the Lamb, so, directly (or perhaps indirectly), they have been cleaned by His blood. They have been forgiven because Jesus payed the price of their sins. Therefore, they are without blame, but not because they didn’t sin, but because of the righteousness they lived in.

 

[crazzeto]

That doesn’t mean that they were sinless. That means that they had their sins forgotten. Read Ezequiel:
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live." ~Ezequiel 18:21-22

Now, because they lived in righteousness (the Bible tells us they were just, thus righteous), their sins have been forgotten, and that is why they had no blame, because their blames have been forgotten. All forgiveness of sins comes from the blood of the Lamb, so, directly (or perhaps indirectly), they have been cleaned by His blood. They have been forgiven because Jesus payed the price of their sins. Therefore, they are without blame, but not because they didn’t sin, but because of the righteousness they lived in.

But they would not be blameless, as Zacharia and Elizabeth are. I for instance am a sinner. I hope one day to be Justified, because hell doesn’t sound like fun. But even assuming I obtain my goal, one could not say that I “walk[ed] in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame”. I didn’t, that statement would be a lie about my life, regardless if whether I go to heaven.

More over, I think that you and I can both agree that the wages of sin are death right? Well how do you explain this about Elias in Ecclesiastes Ch 48?

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=26&ch=48&l=9&f=s#x

9 Who wast taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses

Doesn’t sound to me like he died.

Edit
Of course, this ignores the fact that until Christ’s death on the cross the victory over death had not yet happend, the gates of heaven were closed thus you could not be "justified’ in the sense that we talk about it today. Certainly there was no way to be just if you ever broke a commandment.

 

[Cristian_B]

But they would not be blameless, as Zacharia and Elizabeth are. I for instance am a sinner. I hope one day to be Justified, because hell doesn’t sound like fun. But even assuming I obtain my goal, one could not say that I “walk[ed] in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame”. I didn’t, that statement would be a lie about my life, regardless if whether I go to heaven.

Yes, they would be blameless. If your sins are not remembered it means means they are forgotten. If you forget something, you forget that what you forgot exists. That would be like if it disappeared from your mind, right? If you forget they exist then you just simply can’t find it. Now, if the blame is forgotten, and it cannot be found, then it is true that ‘they can find no blame in him’. If they find no blame in him, then he is blameless, since the blame cannot be remembered nor found. But this applies only to those who have not heard the Gospel. Those who have heard it, are saved trough faith in Christ.

More over, I think that you and I can both agree that the wages of sin are death right? Well how do you explain this about Elias in Ecclesiastes Ch 48?

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=26&ch=48&l=9&f=s#x

Doesn’t sound to me like he died.

He died.

truthontheweb.org/elijah.htm

Read this article. Seems to explain it pretty well.

This one seems to explain it pretty well as well, or even better:

ucg.org/booklets/hl/elijah-heaven.asp

 

[mdifrancesco]

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=1&l=6&f=s#x

This is just one example from scripture, there are more if you want to see them.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He is not talking about sinless people. Here are two scriptures that talk about christians in general.It is a call to holiness NOT a confirmation of sinlessness.

And also:
Job 1:8
“…Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
Are you saying that job was sinless (using your same analogy)? He contended with God and admitted it himself:
Job 42:6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

I stick to my reasoning…

 

[crazzeto]

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He is not talking about sinless people. Here are two scriptures that talk about christians in general.It is a call to holiness NOT a confirmation of sinlessness.

Except they weren’t Christians, they were the parents of John the Baptist. They were Jews bound to the old testament covenant law, and this statement is made prior to the establishment of the new covenant.

Your interpetation, in context, makes no sense.

 

[mdifrancesco]

Except they weren’t Christians, they were the parents of John the Baptist. They were Jews bound to the old testament covenant law, and this statement is made prior to the establishment of the new covenant.

Your interpetation, in context, makes no sense.

It makes plenty of sense.

Galatians 2:16
“nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”

 

[crazzeto]

It makes plenty of sense.

Galatians 2:16
“nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”

No, it really doesn’t. The law was put in place by God for a reason, it was to prepare Israel for the comming messiah who would fulfill (not destroy) the law.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Okay, first:
I know you’re new here and probably don’t know this, but when you quote from a website it’s considered good form to provide a link (or other reference) to that website.
I did not quote a website because I did not use a website (or a quote from anyone else for that matter). I happen to teach the Bible (for the last 22 years) and these are my own thoughts and references.

This is what you stated in Post 269:

And as for Mary being a sinner (and again, we are talking original sin - not a SINNER),
Mary even acknowledged that she needed a Savior. “And my spirit rejoices in God my SAVIOUR, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed” (Luke 1:47-48).** Mary knew that she was a sinner and that what was being done through her was by God’s grace and not any merit on her part. God did not choose Mary because of her “blessedness,” Mary became blessed when she submitted unto the LORD and carried the Lamb of God.** (only sinners need saviours)

The word “mediator,” which is found in six places in the New Testament comes from a Greek word that means; an action by someone on behalf of another in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant, a medium of communication, arbitrator or what we would call an intercessor.

This is what I found on the following website:

allaboutreligion.org/intercession-of-blessed-virgin-mary-faq.htm

What does the Bible say about the intercession of blessed virgin Mary? We find the answer to that question by studying several different Scriptures.** The word “mediator,” which is found in six places in the New Testament comes from a Greek word that means; an action by someone on behalf of another in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant, a medium of communication, arbitrator or what we would call an intercessor.**

In addition, Mary called herself a sinner in her “magnificent” because she acknowledged that she needed a Savior. “And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed” (Luke 1:47-48).** Mary knew that she was a sinner and that what was being done through her was by God’s grace and not any merit on her part. God did not choose Mary because of her “blessedness,” Mary became blessed when she submitted unto the LORD and carried the Lamb of God. **

They are identical, even the punctuation marks and the upper-case letters in the word “Lord.” I found this to be very strange.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Second:
A Savior SAVES. Please tell me how you interpret this?

Sure, a savior saves. Even Mary, who did not sin. As I mentioned before, Mary needed to be safe from Satan. God (and Jesus who is God) saved Mary from Satan.

1 John 1:8-10
“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”
The fact is that everyone EXCEPT Jesus has sin. There is NO scriptural reference that Mary (or anyone else for that matter) lived a sinless life.
The notion that ANYONE could be sinless defies the very nature and purpose of Jesus dying on the cross.

Your Scripture passage doesn’t say anything about Mary having sin. And you are arguing from silence when you state that there “is NO scriptural reference that Mary (or anyone else for that matter) lived a sinless life.” Simply because the Bible doesn’t state something does not mean that something isn’t true. Arguing from silence is a fallacy.

Your last statement makes it appear that it isn’t enough for Jesus to die for everyone who sinned (and as I stated before, Mary did need a savior and Jesus was her Savior) and the one woman who didn’t - Mary. Jesus performed the most perfect sacrifice - He gave His life for us. The fact that His mother didn’t sin doesn’t detract in the least from His sacrifice.

 

[davidv]

We will be sinless, we are not sinless. You are saying that she will be sinless and that she *was *sinless. And I fail to see why did she have to be sinless.

Starting right now, with a pure act of contrition and full use of God’s grace we could lead the rest of our lives sin free.

Technically speaking, she didn’t “have to be sinless” (as in logically necessary). It was, however, “fitting”.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Starting right now, with a pure act of contrition and full use of God’s grace we could lead the rest of our lives sin free.

Technically speaking, she didn’t “have to be sinless” (as in logically necessary). It was, however, “fitting”.

You are absolutely correct. Thank you. It wasn’t necessary. It was “fitting” and it happened.

 

[Cristian_B]

Starting right now, with a pure act of contrition and full use of God’s grace we could lead the rest of our lives sin free.

Technically speaking, she didn’t “have to be sinless” (as in logically necessary). It was, however, “fitting”.

Why was there a necessity for Mary’s sinlessness? Why was it ‘fitting’? For no reason?

 

[crazzeto]

Why was there a necessity for Mary’s sinlessness? Why was it ‘fitting’? For no reason?

To prove the divine nature of Christ Jesus’s birth, do you think that the ancient Jews would have just taken the Apostles (or I hate to say it, but even Christ) at their words regarding the divine nature of the birth? The Holy Mother’s? Women weren’t even allowed to testify legally!

There needed to be no doubts that this was a divine birth. Mary would be ever virgin, ever sinless, for the greater glory of God.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Where is the OP, Fair Lady??

 

[Cristian_B]

Where is the OP, Fair Lady??

Working perhaps?