Prayers to the Saints

[Prodigal_Son1]

Do you realize that this sounds just like the Egyptian sun god Ra? Ra passed through all cycles of life. I understand what you are explaining to me, but Christ was never an old man. Aren’t we to pray to Jesus as He is, and not as He was born?

Actually, I’ve never studied the Egyptian sun god.

Read the line immediately following the part I bolded and underlined.

So likewise He was an old man for old men, that He might be a perfect Master for all, not merely as respects the setting forth of the truth, but also as regards age, sanctifying at the same time the aged also, and becoming an example to them likewise. Then, at last, He came on to death itself, that He might be the first-born from the dead, that in all things He might have the pre-eminence, Colossians 1:18 the Prince of life, Acts 3:15 existing before all, and going before all.

I tried to explain it to you, that Jesus, being God, is outside of time as we are. He was God through all ages on earth.

 

[MeekandHumble]

Actually, I’ve never studied the Egyptian sun god.

Read the line immediately following the part I bolded and underlined.

I tried to explain it to you, that Jesus, being God, is outside of time as we are. He was God through all ages on earth.

Okay,I understand that God is outside of time completely.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever

What I meant is (let me see if I can word this better) How can we claim to pray to an infant Jesus according to the Hebrews 13:8? Does not this verse mean that He is not an infant anymore?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Okay,I understand that God is outside of time completely.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever

What I meant is (let me see if I can word this better) How can we claim to pray to an infant Jesus according to the Hebrews 13:8? Does not this verse mean that He is not an infant anymore?

If Jesus, according to the writing of Paul, was the same yesterday, then, wasn’t He younger then? Jesus is God, He was the same, always; from before His infancy, through His infancy, through His life, now and forever.

 

[MeekandHumble]

If Jesus, according to the writing of Paul, was the same yesterday, then, wasn’t He younger then? Jesus is God, He was the same, always; from before His infancy, through His infancy, through His life, now and forever.

I’m just asking…If He is not an infant, why worship Him as an infant?

Yes He is the same person(sinless and etc…) but He is no longer an infant.

 

[Zooey]

It doesn’t take being Catholic, or even agreeing with the invocation of saints to understand it.

Depends on what you mean by prayer. To pray can also mean to ask with ernestness. “I pray the court show mercy”. Prayers to saints are requests for prayers to God, in the same way that we all pray for others.

Exactly. The Church, which includes the saints, were praying for them (who knows, maybe they asked the Church to do so.)

Catholics, I believe, would agree with this, but asking others to pray for you is a good thing. The issue with invocation of saints is not that it is idolatry (its not), but do the saints hear individual requests for intercession.

Jon

 

[The_Geographer]

I did not say Christ didn’t teach us the Lord’s Prayer, just that he didn’t teach praying as if it were a formula, pray X prayer, Y times, for Z result.

Four living creatures, could that not refer to the four corners of the earth? Of course we should pray for each other, I was saying that we can only rely on God to grant us our needs, not men.

And you are exactly right about the red text.

 

[The_Geographer]

???

Not even once does the Bible teach us to pray to any man.

It doesn’t? How much more bible reading you need my friend. It tell us to pray for one another, doesn’t it? Of course it does.

Acts 12:5 So Peter was kept in prison, but the church was earnestly praying** to God** for him.

Exactly! The church is the body of Christ which consists of the following:
The church militant [on Earth]
The church suffering [those being purified or purgatory ]
the church triumphant [those glorified in heaven]

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints).

1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames*. *

Acts 16:25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them.

Acts 4:24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God.

Prayers are ALWAYS directed straight to God. ONLY.

You mean Worship is only rendered to God, ONLY
And see above about scripture telling us to pray for one another.

Man -------> Jesus/God.

Where are the Saints and Angels in Heaven? in relationship to this. You obviously do not understand the early Church, the Jews or any of what actually happened in the form of “VENERATION” of those that have fallen before us. They gathered bones of them and venerated them. If you open history books you’ll learn these things to be absolutely true. But if you don’t trust anything that is written outside of the bible, then you obviously don’t know anything because if the premise that nothing outside the bible can be referenced then neither is English, or any other language, not math, not science, not Josephus, Not Philo, not anything. So you might as well go bury yourself because you can not communicate with anyone without committing a sin, based on your interpretations of what it means to ignore anything outside the bible.

 

[Mosacked]

It doesn’t? How much more bible reading you need my friend. It tell us to pray for one another, doesn’t it? Of course it does.

Exactly! The church is the body of Christ which consists of the following:
The church militant [on Earth]
The church suffering [those being purified or purgatory ]
the church triumphant [those glorified in heaven]

.

You mean Worship is only rendered to God, ONLY
And see above about scripture telling us to pray for one another.

Where are the Saints and Angels in Heaven? in relationship to this. You obviously do not understand the early Church, the Jews or any of what actually happened in the form of “VENERATION” of those that have fallen before us. They gathered bones of them and venerated them. If you open history books you’ll learn these things to be absolutely true. But if you don’t trust anything that is written outside of the bible, then you obviously don’t know anything because if the premise that nothing outside the bible can be referenced then neither is English, or any other language, not math, not science, not Josephus, Not Philo, not anything. So you might as well go bury yourself because you can not communicate with anyone without committing a sin, based on your interpretations of what it means to ignore anything outside the bible.

Geographer, there’s a BIG difference between praying for and praying TO.

The bible says the followers pray TO God. It never said to pray to any man. Of course, you can pray FOR someone else, but even then still your prayer will be directed TO God.

Perhaps you have some serious problem understanding how prayers work.

PS. I don’t have to understand how your history works, because to me its invalid.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

The bible says the followers pray TO God. It never said to pray to any man.

But Scripture also clearly teaches that Christ and his members are ONE! So prayer (of petition) to the members is, in a certain sense, prayer to the Head.

Let us not divide Christ. The saints in heaven are now glorified, are now exalted. They share in Christ’s power. They reign with him. Indeed, they are him! This is true of all the members, even of those still in this life.

Listen to St. Augustine: “Let us rejoice and give thanks. Not only are we become Christians, but we are become Christ”.

Even so, who in this life can begin to imagine the heavenly saints’ power and glory: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him” (1 Cor 2:9)?

To speak therefore of those saints in glory as being merely “man” is to denigrate and divide Christ, for Head and members form, as Augustine tells us, but “ONE MAN”! * And what God has joined together…*

From Emile Mersch’s, The Whole Christ (pp. 422-423), Augustine’s Sermons to the People:

[Mersch quoting Augustine here]:

Why, does He speak thus, if not because we are in Him and because the Church is the body of Christ? …

Why does He say “the words of My sins” (Ps. 21:2)? Is it not because He Himself is praying for our sins, and because He has made our sins His sins, that He might make His justice our justice. 26

Augustine addresses the same question directly to Christ:

Why, Lord, dost Thou ask pardon for Thy sins? Why prayest Thou in this way? What sins hast thou to expiate? And He replies: “Each time that one of My members prays thus, it is I who pray.” Has He not said, “Inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least of these My brethren, ye did it to Me”? (Matt. 24:40.) 27

A good lesson for the Pelagians-and for the faithful as well:

Therefore, on hearing His words let no one say either: “These are not Christ’s words,” or “These are not my words.” On the contrary, if he knows that he is in the body of Christ, let him say: “These are both Christ’s words and my words.” Say nothing without Him, and He will say nothing without thee. 28

“We must not consider ourselves as strangers to Christ, or look upon ourselves as other than Himself”. 29

His prayer is our prayer, and our prayer is His, provided we do not cut ourselves off from him.

Therefore as soon as our Head begins to pray, let us understand that we are in Him, that we may unite our prayers with His as we share in His tribulation. 30

From these and other like passages one might build up a treatise on Christian prayer. Let us listen as he begins his explanation of the eight-fifth Psalm.

No greater gift could God bestow on men than to give them as their Head His Word, by whom He made all things, and to unite them as member to that Head. Thus the Word became both Son of God and Son of man: one God with the Father, one Man with men.

Hence, when we offer our petitions to God, let us not separate ourselves from the Son; and when the body of the Son prays, let it not detach itself from its Head. Let it be He, the sole Saviour of His body, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who prays for us, who prays in us, and is prayed to by us.

He prays for us as our Priest; He prays in us as our Head; He is prayed to by us as our God; He prays in the form of a slave. There He is the Creator; here He is the creature. He changes not, but takes the creature and transforms it into Himself, making us one man, head and body, with Himself.

We pray therefore to Him, and through Him, and in Him. We pray with Him, and He with us; we recite this prayer of the Psalm in Him, and He recites it in us." 31

Just as the Scriptures are the authentic expressions of our most interior prayer, so, too, are they the expression of catholic life of the whole Church, because they are the expression of Christ’s thought and because the same Christ who prays in each one, prays in all. So each of us can say: “To Thee have I cried from the ends of the earth” (Ps. 60:3):

Who is this that cries from the ends of the earth? Who is this one man who reaches to the extremities of the universe? 32

He is one, but that one is unity. He is one, not one in a single place, but the cry of this one man comes from the remotest ends of the earth. But how can this one man cry out from the ends of the earth unless he be one in all? 33

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Perhaps you have some serious problem understanding how prayers work.

On the contrary, one must understand the Incarnation in order to see the rational for prayer to the saints.

St. Athanasius, writing against the Arians, says that, because of the Incarnation, of God becoming man, “the Lord may now be adored even in us.” (I Contra arianos, 43, P. L., Vol. 26, 100.). *

Think about this astounding truth! It is the Incarnation which has radically and eternally changed man’s relationship to God. By means of the Incarnation, God has marvelously incorporated his creatures into himself, such that they even (incredibly!) become one with Him – yet without ever effacing the Creator-creature distinction! Is this not truly astounding?

Again, Fr. Mersch (The Whole Christ, ch. IV, St. Athanasius. The Divinity of the Word and the Divinization of His Mystical Body, pp. 271-276):

There is no dividing line drawn between the Incarnate Word and the faithful; in Him the divinity deifies the human race. And the saint continues in the same strain:

Union with a creature could not have made man divine. (St. Athanasius)

… It is the flesh of the Word, says Athanasius, the flesh which through contact with the divinity has been delivered from its infirmities. But at the same time the Saint is thinking of the unique realty which consists of the Head united with the members, and he describes both in the same development. Of this the concluding words leave no doubt; from the beginning to the end he had all the faithful in mind, and “the flesh of the Word” signifies them all. (p. 275)

Therefore they are something sacred. Because of Christ, the adoration that is due to God alone must also include humanity, the Sacred Humanity of Christ and ourselves.

In other words, Athanasius remains faithful to his habit of associating Christ’s humanity with our own. According to the Saint, the Scripture refers to this extension of cult when it tells us that after His death Jesus was exalted by God and that He was adored by the angels.

The fact that the Lord became INCARNATE, that Jesus is adored, that He is believed to be the Son of God and the Revealer of the Father, show clearly that this exaltation was not conferred upon the Word in His capacity as Word, but upon ourselves.

By reason of our kinship with His body we too are become the temple of God and are made sons of God; so that the Lord may now be adored even in us, and whosoever sees us can cry, in the words of the Apostle: ‘God is indeed within them’” (1 Cor. 14:25). 18

Christ’s body makes our own bodies precious in the eyes of God and of men; that body is of itself a kind of mute intercession, and THROUGH IT Jesus says unceasingly to the Father:

"I am Thy Word, and Thou art in Me. But I am in them through My body, and by Thee man’s salvation has been wrought in Me. Therefore I ask that they may be one according to the body that is in Me and according to the perfection of this body; that being united with this body and becoming one in it, they too may be made perfect man, as if I bore them all in Myself.”

For since we all partake of the same Christ and possess within us the one Lord, we all become one body.” 19

Such, continues the Saint, is the true sense of the text, ‘That they may be one, as We are one’ (John 17:22). This unity is the unity of Christ, which embraces us all.

• “For because of our relationship to His Body we too have become God’s temple, and in consequence are made God’s sons, even in us the lord is now worshipped and beholders report, as the Apostle says, that God is in them of a truth’.” - Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse I.

And more on the “Whole Christ” in my post here.

 

[Mosacked]

But Scripture also clearly teaches that Christ and his members are ONE! So prayer (of petition) to the members is, in a certain sense, prayer to the Head.

Let us not divide Christ. The saints in heaven are now glorified, are now exalted. They share in Christ’s power. They reign with him. Indeed, they are him! This is true of all the members, even of those still in this life.

Listen to St. Augustine: “Let us rejoice and give thanks. Not only are we become Christians, but we are become Christ”.

Even so, who in this life can begin to imagine the heavenly saints’ power and glory: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him” (1 Cor 2:9)?

To speak therefore of those saints in glory as being merely “man” is to denigrate and divide Christ, for Head and members form, as Augustine tells us, but “ONE MAN”! * And what God has joined together…*

From Emile Mersch’s, The Whole Christ (pp. 422-423), Augustine’s Sermons to the People:

Firstly, I didn’t see your answer on why you reject that man should only pray TO God.
Secondly, Augustine is only recognised by the Catholics.
Thirdly and finally, please write coherently and in relevance to the subject mentioend.

 

[fbl9]

Firstly, I didn’t see your answer on why you reject that man should only pray TO God.
Secondly, Augustine is only recognised by the Catholics.
Thirdly and finally, please write coherently and in relevance to the subject mentioend.

How is it one is able to ask another to pray for him/her?
And those who at his time (Augustine’s) that did not regard his voice, were not christians.
You are missing the point of the unity amongst beleivers.

 

[Vile_Servant]

**Prayer of Confidence in Saint Joseph **

With childlike confidence I present myself before thee, O holy Joseph, faithful foster father of Jesus! I beg thy compassionate intercession and support in this, my present necessity. [Name your petition.]

I firmly believe that thou art most powerful near the throne of God, Who chose thee for the foster father of His well-beloved Son, Jesus Christ. O blessed Saint, who saved that Treasure of Heaven, with His virginal Mother, from the fury of His enemies, who with untiring industry supplied His earthly wants and with paternal care accompanied and protected Him in all the journeys of His childhood, take me also, for the love of Jesus, as thy child. Assist me in my present difficulty with thy prayers before God. The infinite goodness of our Savior, Who loved and honored thee as His father upon earth, cannot refuse thee any request now in Heaven.

How many pious souls have sought help, from thee in their needs and have experienced, to their joy, how good, how ready thou art to assist. How quickly thou dost turn to those who call upon thee with confidence! How powerful thou art in bringing help and restoring joy to anxious and dejected hearts! Therefore, do I fly to thee, O most worthy father of Jesus, most chaste spouse of Mary! Good St. Joseph, I pray thee by the burning love thou hadst for Jesus and Mary upon earth, console me in my distress and present my petition, through Jesus and Mary, before the Throne of God! One word from thee will move Him to assist my afflicted soul. Then most joyfully shall I praise Him and thee, and more earnest shall be my thanksgiving!

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Firstly, I didn’t see your answer on why you reject that man should only pray TO God.

Did I ever say that Christ’s body shouldn’t pray only to God? All prayers are directed ultimately to God.

But let me ask you this:

Is the following the word of God, or the word of “man”?

“All generations shall call me blessed.” (Luke 1:48)

Secondly, Augustine is only recognised by the Catholics.

And why not? Was not Augustine a great Christian bishop? Was he not one of the greatest Doctors of the Church (if not the greatest)? Did he not have and teach the “pure gospel”?

Thirdly and finally, please write coherently and in relevance to the subject mentioend.

Could you be more specific?

 

[Mosacked]

Did I ever say that Christ’s body shouldn’t pray only to God? All prayers are directed ultimately to God.

But let me ask you this:

Is the following the word of God, or the word of “man”?

“All generations shall call me blessed.” (Luke 1:48)

And why not? Was not Augustine a great Christian bishop? Was he not one of the greatest Doctors of the Church (if not the greatest)? Did he not have and teach the “pure gospel”?

Could you be more specific?

How to be more specific unless you can understand the difference between FOR and TO ?

Can I say that I am giving you now raumzeitmc, this piece of birthday cake while you’re already standing at my door waiting for me but instead of passing it to you, I pass it to someone else FIRST (who may or may not eventually pass it onto to someone else whom he thinks is better esteemed for the job) whom I THINK or claims to know you very well?

Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

Eventually, the cake (prayer) never reaches you. It ends up in the garbage can.

.

 

[firstmode]

Why are we directing our prayer to the infant Jesus instead of the incarnate Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father?

Why pray to little infant Jesus, or pimply pre-teen Jesus, etc. Why not just pray to the Jesus that ascended to heaven into the clouds?

 

[fbl9]

Why are we directing our prayer to the infant Jesus instead of the incarnate Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father?

Jesus was incarnate when He was an infant.

Why pray to little infant Jesus, or pimply pre-teen Jesus, etc. Why not just pray to the Jesus that ascended to heaven into the clouds?

Cause it is still the same Jesus, Jesus is God no matter what age of His life He was at.

 

[JonNC]

=Mosacked;6437443]
Secondly, Augustine is only recognised by the Catholics.

I don’t know. Lutherans are kind of fond of him, too.

Jon

 

[MeekandHumble]

Jesus was incarnate when He was an infant.Cause it is still the same Jesus, Jesus is God no matter what age of His life He was at.

Jesus didn’t die on the cross as an infant nor did He overcome the temptations of satan as an infant. Also, He wasn’t baptized as an infant. Really, why pray to Him as an infant?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Jesus didn’t die on the cross as an infant nor did He overcome the temptations of satan as an infant. Also, He wasn’t baptized as an infant. Really, why pray to Him as an infant?

Jesus became the Son of God, in the flesh, as an infant.