Praying About the Book of Mormon - Is it Biblical?

[aquabatix]

Be fair and don’t twist words around. It was a question if the LDS thought that the priesthood was lost after the Apostles, not an affirmation that the CC thinks that as well because WE DON’T. The priesthood has been passed on by the laying of hands since pentecost. It never stopped and continues today. It is an LDS belief that the authority was taken away, perhaps even without the Church’s knoledge. But it remains. No need for restoration after 1800 years because it never left.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If YOU don’t think that the average person needs the priesthood in order to have a personal relationship with Christ, why in the world are you insisting that WE do?

We are all called to the royal priesthood to share the Gospel. However, Christ chose 12 and appointed them. Scriptures go into detail on the imposition of hands with the ordination of others.

As for the length of time…I’m sure that there WERE a great many faithful and good men who would have honored and been worthy of, the priesthood all during those years. God chose not to give it to them.

You kind of avoided a direct question. We have writings from the early Church fathers. Do you reject all of them as without a valid priesthood? If not, where did the valid priesthood end? What early Church fathers are you discounting?

God does things in His own time. Consider…HOW many generations of people lived and were faithful on the earth before Christ came, after all? Who are you, or me, to tell God when He should do things?

So, why does scriptures, that I provided of Jesus speaking and making promises, not mention that the priesthood could be lost, or that He didn’t really mean until the consummation of the world? It’s really that simple. It kind of seems that you think there are errors, either with what Christ said, or what is written. You know we believe Christ is God. Maybe now would be a good time for you to explain the Mormon view of Jesus’ divinity.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I would be happy to back that up, Rebecca. It’s right there in our missionary lessons and is the basic idea behind our existance. Don’t you think it’s a little silly for you to insist that I ‘back up’ the claim that ‘we claim’ that such an apostasy happened?

Yes, I am quite aware what is in your manuals. That is not what I am asking. I am asking you to actually look at what God has done for His Church and through His Church, through the ages. Rather than blindly accept what is in your manuals.

As to God guiding His church (if "his church’ is defined as ‘Catholicism…’)…well, no. Individuals may have been guided by Him…and I’m quite certain that they were. If individuals were guided, THEY, as individuals, certainly influenced the church. However, even the CATHOLICS admit that God has not been guiding the church itself, because the only way that can be done is by public revelation–and there hasn’t been any.

No Catholic has ever admitted God does not guide His Church. The Holy Spirit does indeed guide individuals, and these individuals lead the Church. What do you find wrong with this?

Public revelation refers to revelation that is essential to Salvation. Yes, we believe this Revelation was made complete by Jesus Christ, given once and for all to His Church, which has carefully guarded and taught all that Apostles knew and experienced. This includes laying on of hands for the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Again I ask the question, WHAT DID HE FORGET TO TELL US?

http://www.cantius.org/uploads/documents/holy_orders.jpg

 

[aspirant]

The Mormons who visited me asked me to do it. I did it just for fun. Nothing happened. But on top of that, it was also because I had studied some Church history and the gospels, and knew that their teachings were false.

I’ve prayed it, at the request of some missionaries I used to invite over. It says “ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true.” So I asked “are these things not true?” And, as I told the missionaries, God has faithfully answered “these things are not true.”

I loved having the missionaries over to talk theology. We convinced them to read the Church Fathers and go to Catholic liturgies. It was great until the LDS leaders caught wind of it and they were removed from the mission.

Likewise, a decision based on a burning sensation in prayer cannot be taken seriously. That allows us to be creatures of passion, which the Lord does not advise.

I agree completely.

even the CATHOLICS admit that God has not been guiding the church itself, because the only way that can be done is by public revelation–and there hasn’t been any.

False premises lead to erroneous conclusions.

 

[aspirant]

Revelation was made complete by Jesus Christ, given once and for all to His Church

“Contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.”

 

[Catholic_to_LDS]

ok…read all the posts and I would like to answer the original question. First I was never a “dough eyed” missionary! I would ask those with whom we were studing with to ask God if the LDS church was true or not, to ask weaher or not the BOM is true, and if there was anything else that they questioned about the church, that they would pray about it. I never asked them to pray a “specific” prayer. If they recieved what they thought to be an answer but was still queationing, I would encourage them to pray some more. If they came back and said that they didn’t belive it, then I completely respected their dission and I encourageed them to find a church that was in tune to their christian belieffs.

Maybe this makes me a “different” LDS…I don’t know. But I would encourage anyone to pray about something they needed to know was true in their church’s beliefs. To ssek out councel from that church’s leadership, etc. What one person believes can be very different from another peron of the same church. Even the “mainstream” denominations differ slightly from another. And that’s ok with me.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I loved having the missionaries over to talk theology. We convinced them to read the Church Fathers and go to Catholic liturgies. It was great until the LDS leaders caught wind of it and they were removed from the mission.

I actually asked the missionaries who came to me about the Church Fathers when they talked about the apostasy. Their eyes glazed over like they hadn’t even considered that, and they stuttered out an answer that amounted to, “They tried, but they didn’t do enough.”

Of course, a preservation of beliefs from St. Irenaeus all the way to St. John Damascene told me otherwise.

False premises lead to erroneous conclusions.

And a straw men (ie falling back on the apostasy) displays that you can’t respond to the argument presented.

 

[aspirant]

I actually asked the missionaries who came to me about the Church Fathers when they talked about the apostasy. Their eyes glazed over like they hadn’t even considered that, and they stuttered out an answer that amounted to, “They tried, but they didn’t do enough.”

Of course, a preservation of beliefs from St. Irenaeus all the way to St. John Damascene told me otherwise.

They’re really not trained to talk with informed Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

One time a missionary showed me his “priesthood” lineage with all the names from Joseph Smith to himself. I nodded and showed him a list of all the bishops of Rome from Peter to the present.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

They’re really not trained to talk with informed Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

One time a missionary showed me his “priesthood” lineage with all the names from Joseph Smith to himself. I nodded and showed him a list of all the bishops of Rome from Peter to the present.

If I had been spiritually/ecclesiastically knowledgeable then as the Lord has granted I be now, I might have done something similar. As it stands now, if those missionaries come back or new ones come visit my family, I have a library that has been fruitful and multiplied since then, complete with the works of the Church Fathers and masters of the Greek language, all of which I’m willing to share with them.

 

[aspirant]

I have a library that has been fruitful and multiplied since then, complete with the works of the Church Fathers and masters of the Greek language, all of which I’m willing to share with them.

near occasion of covetousness

 

[zaffiroborant]

It’s not a case of whether Christ could not, Rebecca. Of course He COULD…if He abrogated every idea of free will we have. We do not claim that He COULD Not have done so. We simply claim that He DID not…because His followers made their own choices.

I still don’t see how the idea that if a prophet tried to lead the church astray God would remove him from his place(just read that recently on MADB) doesn’t abrogate free will. The LDS claim that the church won’t fail abrogates free will just as much as the Catholic churches claim does.

I don’t think any LDS here has a clue as to what Catholics believe about how the Holy Spirit guides the church.

 

[SteveVH]

I have asked this question before concerning the priesthood within the LDS church but have never received an answer. A priest is one who offers sacrifice; that is an essential element in the priesthood. If you do not offer sacrifice you are not a priest. It is kind of like calling someone an Olympic swimmer who has never jumped into a pool. Is there a Mormon out there who can tell me when a Mormon “priest” offers sacrifice and exactly what he is offering? Thanks.

 

[evanfaust]

SteveVH
I have asked this question before concerning the priesthood within the LDS church but have never received an answer. A priest is one who offers sacrifice; that is an essential element in the priesthood. If you do not offer sacrifice you are not a priest. It is kind of like calling someone an Olympic swimmer who has never jumped into a pool. Is there a Mormon out there who can tell me when a Mormon “priest” offers sacrifice and exactly what he is offering? Thanks.

Evanfaust
Jesus offered the ultimate sacrifice! The sacrifice before Christ was a simbology of Christ’s atonement. Now the priests are to offer obedience and service to others! That is what LDS priesthood does…serve our fellowman and be clean before God! That is sacrifice!

I appeal to you, brethren, by the mercies of God to present your bodies as living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God which is your spiritual worship.(Romans 12:1)

 

[ParkerD]

I have asked this question before concerning the priesthood within the LDS church but have never received an answer. A priest is one who offers sacrifice; that is an essential element in the priesthood. If you do not offer sacrifice you are not a priest. It is kind of like calling someone an Olympic swimmer who has never jumped into a pool. Is there a Mormon out there who can tell me when a Mormon “priest” offers sacrifice and exactly what he is offering? Thanks.

Hi, SteveVH,
The law of sacrifice within the law of Moses was fulfilled through Christ’s atonement and infinite sacrifice, so the new “law of sacrifice” is a “broken heart and a contrite spirit” and is shown when one partakes of the emblems of Christ’s body and blood through communion. That is why He presented the Last Supper to the apostles after He was resurrected.

Communion is a sacred ordinance done by the authority of the priesthood who do the acts of preparing and breaking bread and praying over it and passing it to the members, so they are officiating in the new “law of sacrifice” when they do that, and the members take upon themselves the name of Christ and covenant in a way that means they are willing to give of themselves and stay “broken-hearted” which they promise to do when they partake of the broken bread and a cup of water (used now instead of wine).

 

[evanfaust]

SteveVH…This is a better answer than my previous one…

“And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart . . . , him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost” (3 Nephi 9:19–20).

What are a broken heart and a contrite spirit? And why are they considered a sacrifice?

The Savior’s perfect submission to the Eternal Father is the very essence of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Christ’s example teaches us that a broken heart is an eternal attribute of godliness. When our hearts are broken, we are completely open to the Spirit of God and recognize our dependence on Him for all that we have and all that we are. The sacrifice so entailed is a sacrifice of pride in all its forms. Like malleable clay in the hands of a skilled potter, the brokenhearted can be molded and shaped in the hands of the Master.

lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-11,00.html

 

[Xavierlives]

The Mormons who visited me asked me to do it. I did it just for fun. Nothing happened. But on top of that, it was also because I had studied some Church history and the gospels, and knew that their teachings were false.

I don’t think you can really make a discernment as to what allegiance you have over a simple prayer, let alone something based off one prayer that ignores scriptural and historical study.

The Mormons that visit me ask for me to pray, and quite honestly, every time I pray for God’s wisdom and understanding, I am always pointed to the falsity of their faith. It is really to the point where it is humorous to me (although I am not sure if God is laughing).

If the Mormons ask again for more prayer on the subject, I doubt I will, because while I am stumped on other mind boggling issues, It seems the clearest message being sent is, you need to share your faith with these men, not cogitate about theirs.

 

[why_me]

The Mormons who visited me asked me to do it. I did it just for fun. Nothing happened. But on top of that, it was also because I had studied some Church history and the gospels, and knew that their teachings were false.

Praying just for the fun or heck of it, may not be the way to go when it comes to prayer. Just an observation.

6
But he should ask in faith, not doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed about by the wind.

I don’t think that you followed this advice from James.

 

[why_me]

I understand this doubt to be of the kind that doubts what God has done and can do. Mormon’s very foundation is doubt. Of the sort that Christ could not keep His own Church together.

Christian faith is grounded in Hope, not doubt. This Hope is a person, Jesus Christ.

The foundation of mormonism is far from doubt. What are mormons doubting? Most of the mormons that I know have no doubt that Christ lives and that there is a god who answers prayers. It seems that the foundation of mormonism is faith in the lord, jesus christ.

 

[why_me]

Prayer, wonderful as it is, does not necessarily give us all the answers. A little reading has its place.You can do all the research on the BOM you want without even going to religious sources. Those will leave you no doubt that the BOM is not of divine origin. Try, for example, “Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon”, web sites offering comparison of original versions with today’s, textual analysis, anachronisms such as the presence of bees in the BOM before the Spanish brought them to America, and so on.

I can go to atheist websites and be confirmly convinced that there is no god based on their scientific reasoning. Such is life when one goes to anti sites. However, mormons generally have answers to anti questions and statements. Mormons are not stupid people. in fact they are usually highly educated and they do not live in a bubble. Religion take faith and with faith there is always doubt. Do we have proof that there was a flood that destroyed the human race at the time of Noah? I don’t think so. Do we have proof that christ was the son of god and performed miracles? I don’t think so.

However mormons are generally a hopeful people who have strong testimonies of god and christ and the miracles that god works in their life. But it all still takes faith.

And intelligent atheist could win any agrument about whether god exists because they base their understanding on fact and reason and not on faith.

 

[why_me]

The challenge to pray Moroni’s prayer and ask the truthfulness of the BOM is a double edged sword that pushes the investigator into the answer the missionaries desire. A couple of dough-eyed boys or girls claim that they “know the BOM is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet of god” and because their testimony is confirmed by the “burning in the bosom”, if you don’t receive the same answer, there is something wrong with you. It’s an unfortunate trap.

This is not true at all. There are many ways in which the spirit can confirm the truthfulness of something. When I prayed about the book of mormon I received a powerful witness that it was true. It was not a burning in the bosom but a powerful (hard to describe) feeling that was quite overcoming. It knocked me off my feet.

But for others the truthfulness can be experienced more calmly. But to my knowledge, no one thinks that there is something wrong with a person who claims not to receive a witness.