Praying About the Book of Mormon - Is it Biblical?

[spn82756]

Mormons agree that Jesus and the Father are one, that He was in the beginning, the Word with God, and is God. Could you please quote the verse by John that says that Jesus was not created or born? .

Can you please explain who created the Father? It must be the same person that created the son…seeing as they are ONE and have been since the beginning.

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad,

Let’s take another approach to this discussion.

Anything you want to discuss about Catholicism is open for discussion, there is no subject we are not willing to discuss openly and honestly.

Is there anything about the Mormon faith we shouldn’t ask questions about; ceremonies, hand symbols, etc. etc.?

You may discuss anything you wish, Prodigal son. The Temple script is on the internet, y’know. We don’t sue anybody for publishing it. Feel free.

However, since I have BEEN to the Temple, and made certain promises, and since I prefer to keep the promises I make, and since, when I go to the Temple I don’t want any memory of contention and argument, not to mention mockery or belittling conversations to interfere with the spirit I feel when I am there, I simply will not be a participant to the conversation.

Go knock yourself out.

 

[dianaiad]

Ok, same, same… now tell us about the author of the Book of Mormon?

Well, the Book of Mormon had several authors, rather like the Bible does. However, unlike the Bible, the Book of Mormon was also compiled and abridged by ONE man…Mormon. This is why it is referred to as 'the Book of Mormon." It was translated by Joseph Smith.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You may discuss anything you wish, Prodigal son. The Temple script is on the internet, y’know. We don’t sue anybody for publishing it. Feel free.

However, since I have BEEN to the Temple, and made certain promises, and since I prefer to keep the promises I make, and since, when I go to the Temple I don’t want any memory of contention and argument, not to mention mockery or belittling conversations to interfere with the spirit I feel when I am there, I simply will not be a participant to the conversation.

Go knock yourself out.

Then there are limitations of what can be discussed? How do you explain those things to those Mormons seek to join them?

Certain promises one prefers to keep, like freemasonry?

 

[dianaiad]

I did, your D&C clearly says such a person has no priesthood authority.

So God thought the perfect thing to do was to restore a false priesthood authority to a philandering con-man? That’s an awesome belief you have going there.

Which they have. duh.

I wouldn’t come back if it were the last religion on the planet.

Rebecca, just because you want to interpret it that way doesn’t mean that your interpretation is correct, or binding upon us. That is NOT what the D%C 'clearly says." I certainly didn’t interpret it that way when I read it, and nobody but you has ever hinted that this was the correct interpretation of it. Sorry.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well, the Book of Mormon had several authors, rather like the Bible does. However, unlike the Bible, the Book of Mormon was also compiled and abridged by ONE man…Mormon. This is why it is referred to as 'the Book of Mormon." It was translated by Joseph Smith.

And where did Joseph Smith find this book and what education did he have in linguistics to translate?

 

[dianaiad]

Can you please explain who created the Father? It must be the same person that created the son…seeing as they are ONE and have been since the beginning.

Kindly remember that Theosis, who is one of the most accurate non-Mormon explainers of LDS doctrine and thought that I’ve ever come across, is still not LDS. Don’t go attacking him as if he were.

 

[TheosisM]

Can you please explain who created the Father? It must be the same person that created the son…seeing as they are ONE and have been since the beginning.

Can you please answer my last question-“Could you please quote the verse by John that says that Jesus was not created or born?”

I don’t think that Mormons disagree that the Father and the Son are “one”. The question is, what does “one” mean?

As a Catholic, I do not believe that anyone created the Father.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Rebecca, just because you want to interpret it that way doesn’t mean that your interpretation is correct, or binding upon us. That is NOT what the D%C 'clearly says." I certainly didn’t interpret it that way when I read it, and nobody but you has ever hinted that this was the correct interpretation of it. Sorry.

Oh, the D & C, that’s doctrines and covenants, correct? Are those considered scriptures by Mormons, or are they doctrines? Can Mormon’s change doctrines at will?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormons agree that Jesus and the Father are one, that He was in the beginning, the Word with God, and is God.

Could you please quote the verse by John that says that Jesus was not created or born?

You should first learn what mormons believe by “beginning”, or even “eternal”. They use the same words but apply very different meaning to these words.

There are a number of reasons why the Nicene Creed came into being. Speaking of “being”, I think that Mormons would agree with everything that the Nicene Creed states,

No, mormons call all Christian creeds an abomination.

though there would be some debate about what it means for the Father and the Son to be “consubstantial”. If that is defined (essentially it is referring to the divine essence, the divine nature),

Mormons do not understand these terms, at all.

I think that Mormons would agree with it, though they believe (from my understanding) that we are all of the divine nature.

mormons believe everything is made form existing matter. gods, you, planets, stars, etc.

Traditional Christians would disagree.

No doubt.Christians understand God is uncreated, and the Creator of all things. Nothing exists outside of Him.

 

[TheosisM]

No, mormons call all Christian creeds an abomination.

Understood, however I’m referring to the content of the Nicene Creed. The Apostle’s Creed is even more agreeable.

Mormons do not understand these terms, at all.

In general, I agree. I’ve also come to realize that many Trinitarians do not understand what these terms mean either, in my numerous discussions about the Trinity on this very board (with Mormons and non-Mormons alike). By both, there is frequent confusion of the Trinity with modalism. Then I start hearing about three leaf clovers, apples, and water/steam/ice that further confuse the matter for people that don’t understand what “being”/“consubstantial”/etc, “person”, etc. refer to. Everyone should read Theology and Sanity by Sheed.

mormons believe everything is made form existing matter. gods, you, planets, stars, etc.

Right.

No doubt.Christians understand God is uncreated, and the Creator of all things. Nothing exists outside of Him.

 

[aspirant]

Could you please quote the verse by John that says that Jesus was not created

Sorry I missed this before. Here’s a few of them:

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”

John 1:3 “All things were made through [the Word], and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

Colossians 1:16 & 2:9 “For by [Christ] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him… For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

Only one of those is from John, but they’re all related. All created things are created by Christ, through Christ, and for Christ. He cannot be a creature himself. He is God.

Hope that helps!

Could you please quote the verse by John that says that Jesus was not… born?

The Word became flesh and was born of the virgin Mary.

 

[dianaiad]

Then there are limitations of what can be discussed? How do you explain those things to those Mormons seek to join them?

Certain promises one prefers to keep, like freemasonry?

We explain them by telling them the purpose of what happens in the Temple, and the nature of what happens. There’s nothing secret about any of it, though I doubt that you will accept that idea. It is, however, sacred to me, and I will not discuss them with you for the reasons I mentioned.

There are many pictures on the internet of Temple interiors. The nature of the promises we make are explained. The reason we make these promises is explained. People are told that the Temple experience is very different from the everyday LDS meeting; extremely scripted, loaded with symbolism, and extremely dense in meaning. Since nothing is taught in the Temple that is NOT taught elsewhere, the only reason I can see for talking about the details is to satisfy voyeuristic curiousity…and by doing so, belittle the very special religious and spiritual nature of the experience.

If you want to dismiss it as ‘like freemasonry’ go right ahead, The ceremonies have some similarities in feel, I suppose–or so I have been told. (shrug) it is my faith, and frankly, you do not have the right to demand that I go against it in order to satisfy the itch of antis to make fun of it.

 

[dianaiad]

And where did Joseph Smith find this book and what education did he have in linguistics to translate?

Prodigal Son, go to LDS.org and read the “Joseph Smith story” for yourself to get this information.

 

[spn82756]

As a Catholic, I do not believe that anyone created the Father.

I think that being ONE with the Father is for all eternity. Backward in time (our concept since there is no time to God) and forward.

Jesus was not created or born. He is one with the Father for all time. I don’t see how the beginning of the Gospel according to St John could be read any other way. Neither does the rest of Christianity. And again…I do not consider mormonism to be Christian.

 

[spn82756]

Can you please answer my last question-“Could you please quote the verse by John that says that Jesus was not created or born?”

I don’t think that Mormons disagree that the Father and the Son are “one”. The question is, what does “one” mean?

As a Catholic, I do not believe that anyone created the Father.

The Word Incarnate was born as human. But always existed as God. So…in that sense Jesus was born…but not as a god.

 

[spn82756]

Kindly remember that Theosis, who is one of the most accurate non-Mormon explainers of LDS doctrine and thought that I’ve ever come across, is still not LDS. Don’t go attacking him as if he were.

I don’t remember making a personal attack.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, just because you want to interpret it that way doesn’t mean that your interpretation is correct, or binding upon us. That is NOT what the D%C 'clearly says." I certainly didn’t interpret it that way when I read it, and nobody but you has ever hinted that this was the correct interpretation of it. Sorry.

It is something I noticed a long time ago, on my own, without any help from “antis” (whoever they are). Mormons claim priesthood authority can fail for certain reasons, this is how the apostasy is explained. You yourself go off on bigoted tirades about how Catholics are moral failures and therefore that is proof to you of an apostasy. Yet, when I bring up the same for your so-called priesthood, all of the sudden it’s a different story. Even show you side by side, two almost exact explanations, one for Catholic priesthood, the other for mormon priesthood. Yet, here you are, telling me they are different.

I understand, I really do. You put on one hat for one thing, another hat for another, and you hope to GOD that the two hats never happen to sit on your head at the same time.

 

[TheosisM]

Sorry I missed this before. Here’s a few of them:

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”

John 1:3 “All things were made through [the Word], and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

Colossians 1:16 & 2:9 “For by [Christ] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him… For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

Only one of those is from John, but they’re all related. All created things are created by Christ, through Christ, and for Christ. He cannot be a creature himself. He is God.

Hope that helps!

Thanks, it does. Perhaps a Mormon can comment on this, however I don’t see that they disagree with any of this. It’s an interpretation issue, especially with the issue of when “the beginning” was (i.e., is Genesis 1:1 referring to an absolute “beginning”, or is it referring to a relative “beginning” when creation began).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We explain them by telling them the purpose of what happens in the Temple, and the nature of what happens. There’s nothing secret about any of it, though I doubt that you will accept that idea. It is, however, sacred to me, and I will not discuss them with you for the reasons I mentioned.

There are many pictures on the internet of Temple interiors. The nature of the promises we make are explained. The reason we make these promises is explained. People are told that the Temple experience is very different from the everyday LDS meeting; extremely scripted, loaded with symbolism, and extremely dense in meaning. Since nothing is taught in the Temple that is NOT taught elsewhere, the only reason I can see for talking about the details is to satisfy voyeuristic curiousity…and by doing so, belittle the very special religious and spiritual nature of the experience.

If you want to dismiss it as ‘like freemasonry’ go right ahead, The ceremonies have some similarities in feel, I suppose–or so I have been told. (shrug) it is my faith, and frankly, you do not have the right to demand that I go against it in order to satisfy the itch of antis to make fun of it.

We both know what we’re discussing, but it always seems wrong, to me, to bring people in and not tell them everything up front. Christ commanded the Apostles to go out and preach the Gospel. There was nothing to hide, nothing to hold back. Holding back certain things is like, wait until they’re in too deep, then through peer pressure we’ll get them into the rest of it.

You brought up a ‘race’ issue earlier as if only the Catholic Church had a history of race issues, even though you brought up a misconception, but I see you avoided discussing the ‘mark of Cain’ in the early Mormon Church, early being in the 1800s, as there is no evidence of ‘Mormon’ prior to that.

Don’t continue to try and paint the Catholic Church as evil, unless you wish to discuss the evils within your own Church. There were and are not any Churches without sinful people in them, the Mormon Church included. Glass house arguments don’t get us anywhere. As you say, there are mutltiple websites giving detailed information about every aspect of either religion, even though Mormons try to paint ex-Mormon websites as lies.

I have been trying to reason with scriptures, and yes I’m going to limit it to what I believe are scriptures. We both accept them as such, there’s no need to demand that we accept other writings ‘translated’ in the 1800s, that are not around for anyone else to inspect, as the same. If that’s too much to ask, maybe some shouldn’t join in the discussion.