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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
God only ‘partly’ redresses wrongs?
Was not even a potsherd left?
The Lord was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be. He is not confined by time.
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Was not even a potsherd left?
The Lord was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be. He is not confined by time.
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ParkerD
Guest
I agree with your last two sentences here, and with the implication that God will fully redress every wrong that has ever been done, fully and with complete justice balanced by mercy.
A “potsherd” means a “pottery fragment”, and that was hyperbole. (Isaiah used hyperbole sometimes, also, and figures of speech that had underlying meanings that were not the same as the literal words in the text.)
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Was ‘utterly overthrown and wasted’ another hyperbole?
Here’s another definition…
ut·ter·ly (tr-l)
adv.
Completely; absolutely; entirely.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 tells us how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one.
**Deu 18:20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain.
Deu 18:21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.**
One false prophecy makes a false prophet.
Can scriptures teach false prophecies and still be considered scriptures?
**Deu 18:20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain.
Deu 18:21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.**
One false prophecy makes a false prophet.
Can scriptures teach false prophecies and still be considered scriptures?
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ParkerD
Guest
ProdigalSon1,
When the Savior returns, perhaps we will see the fulfillment of that prophecy. He certainly will reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He will be the law-giver. All imperfect systems of government will eventually or rapidly be done away with, be as it may, when He reigns whose right it is to reign. That means the poor choices that have led to many wrong laws on the books in the United States, will be thwarted and correctly inspired laws and protections will be established, whether because the leaders finally get the Holy Spirit to guide them in enacting laws (as at the first), or because they are voted out.
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why_me
Guest
I am sure that the early christians did all that they could do not to be a martyr. To do nothing is the same as commiting suicide. There are many types of martyrs. Some die fighting and others do not. They are still martyrs if they die for their faith. JS died for his faith. And he saved two members by running to the window, directing the fire from the mob toward his back. Hyrum his brother was the first to be killed when a bullet hit his face. He did not fire a shot. He is a martyr. John Taylor was wounded. And JS killed. He was also a martyr. Another man started to beat the mobs with his kane. He survived when the mob killed JS by the window. It was a bloody act by americans painted in black faces.
And it is just one of many incidents where americans have blood on their hands.
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why_me
Guest
It has often been said that mormons are good people, adding to the good in this world. The world would be a worse place without mormons and their faith. The mormon church is not an evil church and the devil is not at its head. In the bible there are prophecies that did not come to pass. I posted a website that gives examples. But…it is always the case…no one reads them and no one wants to break through the comforts of their own preconceived ideas.
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ParkerD
Guest
ProdigalSon1,
The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price teach true prophecies, period. All the prophecies in them will be fulfilled, period, including those in the Bible such as that the house of Israel among the heathen who would “serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.” (Deuteronomy 4:28) Going back to Deuteronomy 18, those words certainly ought to have made the people in about 100 AD through 500 AD sit up and take notice, since Christ’s coming fulfilled Deuteronomy 18:15, and I suggest that some of those who placed themselves in a role of teaching the people during those centuries, who spoke that “which I have not commanded him to speak” or “shall speak in the name of other gods” such as was prophesied in Deuteronomy 4:28–gods that “neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell”–will indeed be subject to spiritual death unless they repent mightily in the spirit world.
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why_me
Guest
Well, it is an interesting story. Of course, Joseph just saw his brother shot and killed by a bullet that ripped through his face. If I were Joseph, I would have fired the gun also. We need to remember that there were at least a hundred people in the mob with black painted faces, all armed to the teeth. A six shooter would not do the trick. He was a brave man to stand his ground. And then, run to the window to save the two surviving members, one who was already shot and wounded. No one saw JS as a coward and all admired his bravery at that time.
This was frontier america. Values were just a tad different on the frontier.
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why_me
Guest
About the New Jerusulem revelation:
Criticism
Critics point to Joseph Smith’s prophecy that the Independence, Missouri temple “shall be reared in this generation” as an example of a failed prophecy that makes Joseph Smith a false prophet.
Response
The main problem critics have in interpreting D&C 84 is timing. They cannot understand that when the scriptures use words such as “this generation,” “a little season,” “nigh,” “soon to come,” “quickly,” and “in due time,” it can mean several years, or even centuries. They have no problem with accepting a long time when the Bible makes these statements, but they refuse to interpret Joseph Smith with the same standard. To criticize such terminology is to claim the Bible false. The four hundred years of Israel’s Egyptian captivity was a “little season” to the Lord. All the scriptural terms of time (nigh, shortly come to pass, at the doors, about to be, soon to be, in due time, not many days, a little season, near, close at hand, time will come, not many years, and generation) are not specific in numbers of years. Most of them are conditional. To say that “next generation” as used in the Bible can mean thousands of years, and turn around and say these very same words mean only a hundred years when used in the Doctrine and Covenants is hypocritical. Scripture comes from one source, God. His prophets write as they are inspired by the Holy Ghost. The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Bible use the same terms, with the same meaning, because they come from the same source. You cannot interpret one in one way, and another in a different way. When the Lord wants something accomplished, it will be done, in the Lords time.
And…
Double standard when applied to the Bible
Note the double standard of interpretation critics use against Joseph Smith, for Jesus Christ used the very same terminology. Let’s look at what Jesus himself said to the people of his day concerning prophecies of His second coming. Matthew 24:34 quotes Christ as saying, “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Luke 21:32 repeats this prophecy.
What are “all these things,” and have they come to pass?
Many shall come in Christ’s name, deceiving many (Matthew 24:5, Luke 21:8)
Wars and rumours of wars (Matthew 24:6, Luke 21:9-10)
Famines (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11)
Pestilences (Mathew 24:7, Luke 21:11)
Earthquakes (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11)
Apostles killed (Matthew 24:9, Luke 21:16)
Many shall be offended (Matthew 24:10)
Many shall be betrayed (Matthew 24:10)
Men will hate one another (Matthew 24:10)
False prophets will deceive many (Matthew 24:11)
Iniquity shall abound (Matthew 24:12)
Love of many shall wax cold (Matthew 24:12)
Gospel shall be preached in all the world (Matthew 24:14)
Distress of nations (Luke 21:25)
Men’s hearts will fail them because of fear (Luke 21:11)
Sun shall be darkened (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Moon shall not give her light (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Stars shall fall from heaven (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Sign of the Son of man shall appear (Matthew 24:30, Luke 21:27)
Some of “these things” occurred during Christ’s time period. Some have continued since then. Some have escalated into our time. Some have not occurred yet. So we must ask, since Joseph Smith is charged with false prophecy concerning “this generation,” did Jesus Christ utter a false prophecy? Absolutely not! But, according to the critics’ rules of interpretation, he did, because “this generation” passed away without “all these things” being fulfilled. So, if Joseph Smith uttered a false prophecy about “this generation” so did Christ. I have never read anything from anyone who is a critic of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that attacks Jesus Christ, or the Bible, for making a prophecy of “this generation” which has not yet occurred. Yet it has been many centuries longer from the time of Christ until now, than it has been from the 1830’s till today. It should be noted that D&C 84 does not say the “people now living,” it says “this generation.” The word “generation” has different meanings. According to scripture, the word “generation” can have reference to a time frame, a people, or even a dispensation. Without specific wording which would indicate exactly what the word “generation” means, it is dishonest to accuse one (Joseph Smith) of false prophecy, while accepting another (Jesus Christ) when both use it in a general form.
en.fairmormon.org/Independence_temple_to_be_built_%22in_this_generation%22
Mormons have addressed all critic complaints.
Criticism
Critics point to Joseph Smith’s prophecy that the Independence, Missouri temple “shall be reared in this generation” as an example of a failed prophecy that makes Joseph Smith a false prophet.
Response
The main problem critics have in interpreting D&C 84 is timing. They cannot understand that when the scriptures use words such as “this generation,” “a little season,” “nigh,” “soon to come,” “quickly,” and “in due time,” it can mean several years, or even centuries. They have no problem with accepting a long time when the Bible makes these statements, but they refuse to interpret Joseph Smith with the same standard. To criticize such terminology is to claim the Bible false. The four hundred years of Israel’s Egyptian captivity was a “little season” to the Lord. All the scriptural terms of time (nigh, shortly come to pass, at the doors, about to be, soon to be, in due time, not many days, a little season, near, close at hand, time will come, not many years, and generation) are not specific in numbers of years. Most of them are conditional. To say that “next generation” as used in the Bible can mean thousands of years, and turn around and say these very same words mean only a hundred years when used in the Doctrine and Covenants is hypocritical. Scripture comes from one source, God. His prophets write as they are inspired by the Holy Ghost. The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Bible use the same terms, with the same meaning, because they come from the same source. You cannot interpret one in one way, and another in a different way. When the Lord wants something accomplished, it will be done, in the Lords time.
And…
Double standard when applied to the Bible
Note the double standard of interpretation critics use against Joseph Smith, for Jesus Christ used the very same terminology. Let’s look at what Jesus himself said to the people of his day concerning prophecies of His second coming. Matthew 24:34 quotes Christ as saying, “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Luke 21:32 repeats this prophecy.
What are “all these things,” and have they come to pass?
Many shall come in Christ’s name, deceiving many (Matthew 24:5, Luke 21:8)
Wars and rumours of wars (Matthew 24:6, Luke 21:9-10)
Famines (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11)
Pestilences (Mathew 24:7, Luke 21:11)
Earthquakes (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11)
Apostles killed (Matthew 24:9, Luke 21:16)
Many shall be offended (Matthew 24:10)
Many shall be betrayed (Matthew 24:10)
Men will hate one another (Matthew 24:10)
False prophets will deceive many (Matthew 24:11)
Iniquity shall abound (Matthew 24:12)
Love of many shall wax cold (Matthew 24:12)
Gospel shall be preached in all the world (Matthew 24:14)
Distress of nations (Luke 21:25)
Men’s hearts will fail them because of fear (Luke 21:11)
Sun shall be darkened (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Moon shall not give her light (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Stars shall fall from heaven (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Sign of the Son of man shall appear (Matthew 24:30, Luke 21:27)
Some of “these things” occurred during Christ’s time period. Some have continued since then. Some have escalated into our time. Some have not occurred yet. So we must ask, since Joseph Smith is charged with false prophecy concerning “this generation,” did Jesus Christ utter a false prophecy? Absolutely not! But, according to the critics’ rules of interpretation, he did, because “this generation” passed away without “all these things” being fulfilled. So, if Joseph Smith uttered a false prophecy about “this generation” so did Christ. I have never read anything from anyone who is a critic of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that attacks Jesus Christ, or the Bible, for making a prophecy of “this generation” which has not yet occurred. Yet it has been many centuries longer from the time of Christ until now, than it has been from the 1830’s till today. It should be noted that D&C 84 does not say the “people now living,” it says “this generation.” The word “generation” has different meanings. According to scripture, the word “generation” can have reference to a time frame, a people, or even a dispensation. Without specific wording which would indicate exactly what the word “generation” means, it is dishonest to accuse one (Joseph Smith) of false prophecy, while accepting another (Jesus Christ) when both use it in a general form.
en.fairmormon.org/Independence_temple_to_be_built_%22in_this_generation%22
Mormons have addressed all critic complaints.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
There are some good atheists in this world. They do not lead people to God though.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Your biggest problem is that there is no way for some of those prophecies to happen as foretold. Too many variables and they cannot happen with some of the passing events to prevent them.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Instead of copying and pasting propaganda from a biased site, bring up the issues one at a time as I did. I’ll be glad to go over them with you. For instance, alot of Matthew 24 prophecies by CHRIST happened in the destruction of Jerusalem. Maybe you can see if through private interpretation.
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why_me
Guest
Reporter John Hay, of the Atlantic Monthly identified three men who were shot by Joseph Smith: John Wills in the arm, William Vorhees in the shoulder, and William Gallagher in the face. Hay was a son of Charles Hay, a surgeon of the Carthage militia and apparently a member of the mob.
“Smith had two loaded six-barrelled revolvers in his room. How a man on trial for capital offences came to be supplied with such luxuries is a mystery that perhaps only one man could fully have solved; and as General Deming, the Jack-Mormon sheriff, died soon after, and left no explanation of the matter, investigation is effectually baffled. But the four shots which I have chronicled, and two which had no billet, exhausted one pistol, and the enemy gave Smith no time to use the other. Severely wounded as he was, he ran to the window, which was open to receive the fresh June air, and half leaped, half fell, into the jail yard below.”
John Hay, “The Mormon Prophet’s Tragedy,” Atlantic Monthly (December 1869) 671-678
The other pistol was Hyrums. He never had a chance to use it since he was murdered in cold blood as the mob stormed the stairs and opened fire…hitting Hyrum in the face. Joseph bent over him and said something to his dead brother and got the gun and opened fire toward the door. The above post in red is rather heartless in its interpretation being baffled about the guns and not the mobs.
“Smith had two loaded six-barrelled revolvers in his room. How a man on trial for capital offences came to be supplied with such luxuries is a mystery that perhaps only one man could fully have solved; and as General Deming, the Jack-Mormon sheriff, died soon after, and left no explanation of the matter, investigation is effectually baffled. But the four shots which I have chronicled, and two which had no billet, exhausted one pistol, and the enemy gave Smith no time to use the other. Severely wounded as he was, he ran to the window, which was open to receive the fresh June air, and half leaped, half fell, into the jail yard below.”
John Hay, “The Mormon Prophet’s Tragedy,” Atlantic Monthly (December 1869) 671-678
The other pistol was Hyrums. He never had a chance to use it since he was murdered in cold blood as the mob stormed the stairs and opened fire…hitting Hyrum in the face. Joseph bent over him and said something to his dead brother and got the gun and opened fire toward the door. The above post in red is rather heartless in its interpretation being baffled about the guns and not the mobs.
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why_me
Guest
From a biased site? What is there to go over. It is either true or not. The work as been done on mormon sites addressing critics like yourself who gleam information from antimormon sites. It is not my wish nor desire to debate with you. I gave you the counter information to the antimormon propaganda from antimormon sites that you are throwing into this thead. The bible is filled with possible interpretations which can be batted around until doomsday.
I gave you the mormon apologetic position. You will need to deal with it, not me.
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why_me
Guest
Actually, some do. Humanistic atheism is very christian or faith centered. And many atheists who are also humanists have wonderful godly values, without the stigma of religion. But because they do have such values they can be converted later.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Oh, want me to list a huge list AT ONCE of failed prophecies so you can respond? It’s clearly an attempt to show, ‘look at me, I have huge list’ and ‘no one can possibly respond to this mess with a single thread, much less a single post’ smoke screen.
As I said, one at a time and they can be explained, much easier than the twisting and turning I’ve seen about Joseph Smith’s ‘prophecies’.
The Bible is not filled with many possible interpretations, unless everyone decides to do it for themselves. Show me where scriptures teaches us to intepret scriptures for ourselves.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Are you saying faith in Christ is a stigma?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Do you forget the mobs that arrested, persecuted, whipped and crucified Jesus? Did He have His Apostles draw swords and help Him, or did He tell them to put them away for those who live by the sword, die by the sword?
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ParkerD
Guest
ProdigalSon1,
I for one am extremely grateful that there were men with enough resilience and desire for freedom from oppression and love for freedom for themselves and their children, that they were willing to fight for those freedoms and even die for those freedoms, in 1776-1787, in this great country of mine (despite its problems and short-comings at the present time).
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