Praying About the Book of Mormon - Is it Biblical?

[Prodigal_Son1]

ProdigalSon1,
I for one am extremely grateful that there were men with enough resilience and desire for freedom from oppression and love for freedom for themselves and their children, that they were willing to fight for those freedoms and even die for those freedoms, in 1776-1787, in this great country of mine (despite its problems and short-comings at the present time).

Would a patriot desire the utter destruction of their own country?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormons have inherited an incomplete Bible. Otherwise, we could point them to 2 Maccabees 7. Then maybe they could understand what it means to be a martyr for God. (Which of course is entirely different than fighting for country, and being called a hero.)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The main problem critics have in interpreting D&C 84 is timing. They cannot understand that when the scriptures use words such as “this generation,” “a little season,” “nigh,” “soon to come,” “quickly,” and “in due time,” it can mean several years, or even centuries.

A Biblical generation was around 40 years. A Mormon generation can be centuries.

 

[ParkerD]

Would a patriot desire the utter destruction of their own country?

ProdigalSon1,
I consider that a patriot would desire that the United States Constitution, which was divinely inspired, would be practiced by the three branches of government in very deed. If so, there would be so many differences than the government we see today, that one could say the government of today would be unrecognizable compared with the government we would then have. Note the difference between “country” and “government”, and between living by the Constitution and living non-constitutional principles as has happened in so many ways. But hopefully, changes will be coming in the future, whether by desperation or by inspiration and voices in government that acknowledge the need for divine inspiration, and seek that with all their heart so that they can get it.

Ultimately, a true patriot desires freedom, and freedom cannot be had without freedom of conscience and without due process and judicial protection, unless everyone were perfect, which they’re not.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What are “all these things,” and have they come to pass?

Many shall come in Christ’s name, deceiving many (Matthew 24:5, Luke 21:8)

According to Mormons, there was such a corruption that the valid priesthood was lost due a ‘great apostasy’. Did these happen or not?

Wars and rumours of wars (Matthew 24:6, Luke 21:9-10)

Within 40 years, Rome totally destroyed Jerusalem.

Famines (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11)

Rome encompassed Jerusalem, cutting it off from all supplies, including food.

Pestilences (Mathew 24:7, Luke 21:11)

The war with the Romans caused unsantitary conditions, which produced many pestilences.

Earthquakes (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11)

Catapults shook the city of Jerusalem when it was under seige.

Apostles killed (Matthew 24:9, Luke 21:16)

What happened to the Apostles? Oh right, they were martyred. What does Luke 21:16 say specifically?

**Luk 21:16 And you shall be betrayed by your parents and brethren and kinsmen and friends: and some of you they will put to death. **

What did Matthew say specifically?

**Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. **

They were arrested, chained, and the first Apostle was martyred around 44AD.

Many shall be offended (Matthew 24:10)

I think those that lived in Jerusalem at the time of the destruction were highly offended to say the least.

Many shall be betrayed (Matthew 24:10)
Men will hate one another (Matthew 24:10)
False prophets will deceive many (Matthew 24:11)
Iniquity shall abound (Matthew 24:12)
Love of many shall wax cold (Matthew 24:12)
Gospel shall be preached in all the world (Matthew 24:14)
Distress of nations (Luke 21:25)
Men’s hearts will fail them because of fear (Luke 21:11)
Sun shall be darkened (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Moon shall not give her light (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Stars shall fall from heaven (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Sign of the Son of man shall appear (Matthew 24:30, Luke 21:27)

Check the Bible. When it speaks of Sun darkening, Moon not giving light and stars falling from the heaven, what had happened? Judgment! An empire or kingdom had fallen!

When Rome encompassed Jerusalem and ending up totally destroying it, all things came to pass.

When the Lord spoke about the second coming, when did He say it would happen? Oh yea, NO ONE would know.

Mormons try and falsify Jesus’ prophecies for the sake of Joseph Smith, who made many prophecies that did not come to pass and cannot, now that he is dead. To do this they pick the same event from the Bible as told by two separate authors, Matthew and Luke. There were two questions asked of the Lord,

**Mat 24:1 And Jesus being come out of the temple, went away. And his disciples came to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And he answering, said to them: Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you, there shall not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed.
Mat 24:3 And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the consummation of the world? **

**Luk 21:1 And looking on, he saw the rich men cast their gifts into the treasury.
Luk 21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in two brass mites.
Luk 21:3 And he said: Verily, I say to you that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all.
Luk 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast into the offerings of God: but she of her want hath cast in all the living that she had.
Luk 21:5 And some saying of the temple that it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said:
Luk 21:6 These things which you see, the days will come in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying: Master, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when they shall begin to come to pass? **

Was everything literal, as Mormons try to convey in their attempt to discredit Jesus’ prophecies?

**Luk 21:29 And he spoke to them a similitude. See the fig tree and all the trees: **

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

ProdigalSon1,
I consider that a patriot would desire that the United States Constitution, which was divinely inspired, would be practiced by the three branches of government in very deed. If so, there would be so many differences than the government we see today, that one could say the government of today would be unrecognizable compared with the government we would then have. Note the difference between “country” and “government”, and between living by the Constitution and living non-constitutional principles as has happened in so many ways. But hopefully, changes will be coming in the future, whether by desperation or by inspiration and voices in government that acknowledge the need for divine inspiration, and seek that with all their heart so that they can get it.

Ultimately, a true patriot desires freedom, and freedom cannot be had without freedom of conscience and without due process and judicial protection, unless everyone were perfect, which they’re not.

Where did you get that the constitution was divinely inspired? Do Mormons also consider the constitution scriptures?

Let’s see how patriotic the Doctrines and Covenants are:

**D&C 49:9-10. The nations of the earth shall bow to the Mormon gospel or they “shall come down” and “shall be laid low of power.”

D&C 133:42 “…all nations shall tremble at thy presence.”

D&C 71:7-10 Mormons are to call upon their enemies to meet them both in public and in private, and the shame of their enemies shall be made manifest. “No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper.”

D&C 84:114-115. New York, Albany and Boston will be destroyed if they reject the gospel. The “hour of their judgment is nigh…”

D&C 87. Prophecy of the rebellion of South Carolina, war between the states. The South will call on Great Britain for aid, and as a result war will be poured out upon all nations; slaves will revolt; the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations will result.

D&C 111. Joseph Smith received a revelation telling him to go to Salem, Massachusetts. This section is the revelation given to him when he and his companions had arrived there. It promises that they would receive the city and “have power over it” and “its wealth pertaining to gold and silver” should be theirs.

**

Patriotic as long as we’re willing to bow down?
Joseph Smith was no patriot, Joseph Smith was not the Messiah.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What are “all these things,” and have they come to pass?

Many shall come in Christ’s name, deceiving many (Matthew 24:5, Luke 21:8)
Wars and rumours of wars (Matthew 24:6, Luke 21:9-10)
Famines (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11)
Pestilences (Mathew 24:7, Luke 21:11)
Earthquakes (Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11)
Apostles killed (Matthew 24:9, Luke 21:16)
Many shall be offended (Matthew 24:10)
Many shall be betrayed (Matthew 24:10)
Men will hate one another (Matthew 24:10)
False prophets will deceive many (Matthew 24:11)
Iniquity shall abound (Matthew 24:12)
Love of many shall wax cold (Matthew 24:12)
Gospel shall be preached in all the world (Matthew 24:14)
Distress of nations (Luke 21:25)
Men’s hearts will fail them because of fear (Luke 21:11)
Sun shall be darkened (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Moon shall not give her light (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Stars shall fall from heaven (Matthew 24:29, Luke 21:25)
Sign of the Son of man shall appear (Matthew 24:30, Luke 21:27)

Read an eye witness account, excerpt, of the war of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus.

Throughout the city people were dying of hunger in large numbers, and enduring unspeakable sufferings. In every house the merest hint of food sparked violence, and close relatives fell to blows, snatching from one another the pitiful supports of life. No respect was paid even to the dying; the ruffians [anti-Roman zealots] searched them, in case they were concealing food somewhere in their clothes, or just pretending to be near death. Gaping with hunger, like mad dogs, lawless gangs went staggering and reeling through the streets, battering upon the doors like drunkards, and so bewildered that they broke into the same house two or three times in an hour. Need drove the starving to gnaw at anything. Refuse which even animals would reject was collected and turned into food. In the end they were eating belts and shoes, and the leather stripped off their shields. Tufts of withered grass were devoured, and sold in little bundles for four drachmas.

With these words she killed her son, roasted the body, swallowed half of it, and stored the rest in a safe place. But the rebels were on her at once, smelling roasted meat, and threatening to kill her instantly if she did not produce it. She assured them she had saved them a share, and revealed the remains of her child. Seized with horror and stupefaction, they stood paralyzed at the sight. But she said, “This is my own child, and my own handiwork. Eat, for I have eaten already. Do not show yourselves weaker than a woman, or more pitiful than a mother. But if you have pious scruples, and shrink away from human sacrifice, then what I have eaten can count as your share, and I will eat what is left as well.” At that they slunk away, trembling, not daring to eat, although they were reluctant to yield even this food to the mother. The whole city soon rang with the abomination. When people heard of it, they shuddered, as though they had done it themselves.

 

[why_me]

Do you forget the mobs that arrested, persecuted, whipped and crucified Jesus? Did He have His Apostles draw swords and help Him, or did He tell them to put them away for those who live by the sword, die by the sword?

One apostle cut off a soldier’s ear. Why was he carrying a weapon if he was with Jesus? We know very little of Jesus and the apostles. Everything we know is in a small amount of writings. I think that we would all be shocked with what may have been left out of the gospel writings because the authors thought them non-important…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

One apostle cut off a soldier’s ear. Why was he carrying a weapon if he was with Jesus? We know very little of Jesus and the apostles. Everything we know is in a small amount of writings. I think that we would all be shocked with what may have been left out of the gospel writings because the authors thought them non-important…

So, Mormons find no fault in speaking ill of Jesus or the inspired word of God?

**Mat 26:52 Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot ask my Father, and he will give me presently more than twelve legions of angels?

Luk 22:51 But Jesus answering, said: Suffer ye thus far. And when he had touched his ear, he healed him.**

 

[FabiusMaximus]

FabiusMaximus,

I’ll respond to your question in two parts that are something I had already posted:

The sequence of being able to receive a witness from the Holy Spirit regarding the Book of Mormon and thus whether Joseph Smith was a prophet called by God who continued to receive guidance from God through the Holy Spirit, so that God who is in charge could reveal His will and not have men do whatever they wanted and say they “had the Spirit”, is that one would be obliged to read the Book of Mormon honestly and sincerely with no preconceived answer in their mind and heart, have love for all men including people of long ago all over the world and including the House of Israel long ago, have love for the Bible as a true record about God’s dealings with humankind and God’s covenant promises to humankind, have faith in Christ and His atonement, have humility and patience and a desire to really do what God wants one to do and be willing to do it even if it means “leaving father and mother” or “brothers and sisters” or “friends”, then with all that in place–pray about what one has read whether it is from God.

Otherwise, posting on this thread is a waste of time and the time would be better spent reading the Bible and treasuring up its message of love and peace and salvation through Christ, the Lord Omnipotent whose Second Coming is indeed coming, perhaps in our lifetime.

This doesn’t really answer my question.

The early Church dealt with a similar ordeal with the rise of Montanism. Granted, Mormonism is not the same as Montanism, but they do have a point of unity - that of continued revelation. Montanus believed that he received prophecy directly from the Holy Spirit, and that his prophecies superseded the Apostles’ writings. This is quite similar to what Joseph Smith alleged with the writing of the Book of Mormon, though with a different spin.

But this heresy was already bashed in by the Christian Church in the 4th century.

Plus, given that I am but a weak man, I don’t tend to trust my own feelings. Often, they fail me. My feelings are frequently misguided. The heart is difficult to understand (Jeremiah 17:9), and therefore untrustworthy.

Additionally - what if two Mormon missionaries came by my home, we prayed over the Book of Mormon, but instead of a “burning bosom” which confirmed Mormonism, what if I had the opposite feeling - one that told me to reject it? Or what if I prayed over the Qur’an and got a “warm and fuzzy” feeling? Would that make Islam the religion to which I should adhere?

I’m not saying that all feelings are going to fail us all the time, and indeed, I doubt not that God gives us all tremendous emotional experience through the Holy Spirit. But given that there are so many spirits around, we must be able to discern. We must be rational, and we must examine the scriptures.

Remember the Bereans, who joyfully received Paul’s word, but studied aggressively:

“Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” (Acts 17:11)

Additionally, it seems clear that our faith is one, and that it has been final:

“Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.” (Jude 3)

We have a faith. It has been given once and for all. This means that there is nothing new coming in. If there is nothing new coming in this means that there is no more revelation that is expanding our canon.

Also, I’m a little suspicious of angels trying to change the norm in terms of the faith:

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:8-9)

Given this, who am I to trust my feelings over the words of scripture?
See, I don’t doubt necessarily that Joseph Smith saw something. I don’t think he was just some con artist. I think he saw a couple spirits that appeared to him claiming to be the Father and the Son, and then a spirit acting as a heavenly angel gave him the “revelation” which became the Book of Mormon.

But I think they’re clearly demonic spirits. They seem to contradict everything the Bible says in every step. And I should trust my weak feelings over the words of scripture? Why?

 

[ParkerD]

Where did you get that the constitution was divinely inspired? Do Mormons also consider the constitution scriptures?

Let’s see how patriotic the Doctrines and Covenants are:

Patriotic as long as we’re willing to bow down?
Joseph Smith was no patriot, Joseph Smith was not the Messiah.

ProdigalSon1,
Have you no ability to figure out whether you are reading something that has been doctored up by someone with the deliberate intent to deceive someone such as yourself?

Here are the verses which were misrepresented by those whom you quoted (such an easy thing to figure out–go to the source, not some deceiver–why be so significantly and easily deceived?):

49:8 Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of.
9 Wherefore, I say unto you that I have sent unto you mine everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
10 And that which I have promised I have so fulfilled, and the nations of the earth shall bow to it; and, if not of themselves, they shall come down, for that which is now exalted of itself shall be laid low of power.

133:41 And it shall be answered upon their heads; for the presence of the Lord shall be as the melting fire that burneth, and as the fire which causeth the waters to boil.
42 O Lord, thou shalt come down to make thy name known to thine adversaries, and all nations shall tremble at thy presence—
43 When thou doest terrible things, things they look not for;
44 Yea, when thou comest down, and the mountains flow down at thy presence, thou shalt meet him who rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, who remembereth thee in thy ways.

71:6 For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power.
7 Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest.
8 Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord.
9 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper;
10 And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time.

84:114 Nevertheless, let the bishop go unto the city of New York, also to the city of Albany, and also to the city of Boston, and warn the people of those cities with the sound of the gospel, with a loud voice, of the desolation and utter abolishment which await them if they do reject these things.
115 For if they do reject these things the hour of their judgment is nigh, and their house shall be left unto them desolate.

111:2 I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.
3 Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.
4 And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

10 For there are more treasures than one for you in this city.

“Treasure” in D & C 111 involves spiritual treasures, such as family history records and the blessings available to people who embrace the full gospel covenants.

All the other passages are similar to passages in the Bible about the power and glory and Kingship of Jesus Christ, and the spiritual “burning” that is going to happen to those who ignore the message of hope and salvation that He has offered so lovingly to the world. So if you don’t like the words, then it’s because you dislike the Bible because it has the same message.

By the way, yes the LDS believe the United States Constitution as originally written, was divinely inspired through men whom “God raised up for that very purpose.” That does not make it scripture, but it does make it a sacred treasure and something to be grateful for.

 

[ParkerD]

FabiusMaximus,
Based on the situation that you have an incorrect translation of the Bible that makes it harder to understand, and that you seem not to have understood my meaning anyway about how the Holy Spirit which was promised to the early saints is still promised (very much so) even to weak mortals, because of the strong efficacy of prayer with sincere intent and faith in Christ and the power He can absolutely bring to a righteous, earnest person–then I would say you are correct that you would never be able to get at the truths promised in the gospel as testified by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 (King James Translation), through the approach you have in mind. So keep what you have, but I suggest you never let your mind think that there aren’t those who actually understand the Holy Spirit and how He communicates to the hearts and minds of people who are sincere in their prayers.

 

[Answersplease]

Answersplease:

You are misrepresenting what I said.

I NEVER said that Paul died last. In fact I think the original Apostle John died last.
Public revelation stopped at the death of the last of the original Apostles who was John

My statement still stands. I can not say that god is now on a coffee break after the death of John when it came to public revelation. Of course, in mormon apostacy interpretation god did perhaps remain silent until the restored church was formed. So, you do have a point with the stoppage of public revelation. But mormons would now claim that god speaks through his prophets as they did in ancient times.

The prophecy is complete, nothing else needs to be added to be generally known in order to be saved.

Can you say that Joseph Smith has not added to the words fo the prophecy of the Book of Revelation?

Revelation 22:18

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

 

[Answersplease]

According to the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-5, Joseph Smith prophesied a temple, to be known as the city of the New Jerusalem, would be built in the Western boundaries of the state of Missouri. I have underlined parts of this passage, below, for emphasis.

It is clearly a prophecy, ‘…spoken by the mouth of his prophets…’

We know Joseph Smith was killed by a mob, with a gun in his own hand, one he fired at his attackers. His hand will not be dedicating this Temple.

Now, this Temple has not been built unto this day. In fact, the ‘lot’ is not even owned by the LDS Church. It is owned by another ‘sect’ of Mormons that claim there was an apostasy of Mormons who split away from the one true ‘restored’ Church. Now, forgetting the legalities of who owns the lot and the possibility that ownership might change, where is that generation who would not pass until this came to pass? This was over 160 years ago? A Biblical generation is around 40 years…

“It is owned by another ‘sect’ of Mormons that claim there was an apostasy of Mormons who split away from the one true ‘restored’ Church.”

That pretty much settles that “prophecy.”

 

[why_me]

So, Mormons find no fault in speaking ill of Jesus or the inspired word of God?

**Mat 26:52 Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot ask my Father, and he will give me presently more than twelve legions of angels?

Luk 22:51 But Jesus answering, said: Suffer ye thus far. And when he had touched his ear, he healed him.**

But why was he carrying a sword in the first place? And certainly christ knew that he was carrying a sword. And yes, in this instance since prophecy was being fulfilled jesus told him to put the sword away, But he was still carrying a sword. Any comments?

 

[why_me]

Mormons have inherited an incomplete Bible. Otherwise, we could point them to 2 Maccabees 7. Then maybe they could understand what it means to be a martyr for God. (Which of course is entirely different than fighting for country, and being called a hero.)

There are many definitions of martyr and it does not necessarily mean submission in death. A martyr is one who dies for his or her faith. Was Joan D’ Arch a martry? Yes, she was. And yet, she killed many men and she is a saint.

But nice try, Rebecca.

I just love Americans. Here we have a man in prison with his brother and two other volunteers. A mob of hundred men in black painted faces storm the prison, armed to the teeth, firing randomly at the door of the prison to kill as many people as possible. Joseph, seeing his brother murdered, picks up the pistol and fires six shots. He is murdered.

And yet, the catholic americans find no fault with the mob but with Joseph. How to figure that out?

 

[RebeccaJ]

There are many definitions of martyr and it does not necessarily mean submission in death. A martyr is one who dies for his or her faith. Was Joan D’ Arch a martry? Yes, she was. And yet, she killed many men and she is a saint.

But nice try, Rebecca.

Joan of Arc was burned at the stake, sans any weaponry. But nice try why me.

 

[why_me]

Joan of Arc was burned at the stake, sans any weaponry. But nice try why me.

Well, she was taken prisoner, not much to do about that and put in chains and raped. No chance to smuggle anything in. But she killed many people and she was a fighter. And she was still a martyr. Again, many definitions of a martyr. Not just the humble and peace loving types you are trying to portray.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, she was taken prisoner, not much to do about that and put in chains and raped. No chance to smuggle anything in. But she killed many people and she was a fighter. And she was still a martyr. Again, many definitions of a martyr. Not just the humble and peace loving types you are trying to portray.

why me, martyrs accept death for their beliefs, without fighting and with bravery in how they answer their accused. Joan of Arc was given the chance, an out, all she had to do was deny her experiences. She did not, she accepted death instead.

Why build this strawman? Tyring to make Joseph Smith look like Joan of Arc? Well, you would have to start with the fact that he lied to cover what he was teaching. He did not face his accusers with bravery. He sought a way out, first by denying his own teachings that he claimed had divine origin.

You do St. Joan no favor comparing her to someone like Joseph Smith.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

FabiusMaximus,
Based on the situation that you have an incorrect translation of the Bible that makes it harder to understand, and that you seem not to have understood my meaning anyway about how the Holy Spirit which was promised to the early saints is still promised (very much so) even to weak mortals, because of the strong efficacy of prayer with sincere intent and faith in Christ and the power He can absolutely bring to a righteous, earnest person–then I would say you are correct that you would never be able to get at the truths promised in the gospel as testified by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 (King James Translation), through the approach you have in mind. So keep what you have, but I suggest you never let your mind think that there aren’t those who actually understand the Holy Spirit and how He communicates to the hearts and minds of people who are sincere in their prayers.

I understand that God gives us experiences through the Holy Spirit.

However, the Bible tells us how to discern them. How do we discern them in Mormonism?