Praying About the Book of Mormon - Is it Biblical?

[sablouwho]

The terms “conservative” or “liberal” don’t apply to the LDS Church. It is category all its own! Many of their policies however may be regarded by others to be “conservative”—e.g. traditional families, moral behavior, modesty in dress, anti-abortion etc.

There are other religious groups that embrace these same/similar values (some in Christianity, definitely traditional Jews, and no doubt others too). These groups are often referred to as traditional. Why would such a label be problematic in an LDS context? Frankly, LDS friends (real ones who I know personally, not on the internet ) appear to have no problem with the conservative label.

By the way, saying that the LDS is a category all its own when it comes to said morals/values seems like you are using yet another logical fallacy called Special Pleading.

Form:

Rule: Xs are generally Ys.
x is an X.
x is an exception to the rule because it is I (where I is an irrelevant characteristic).
Therefore, x is not a Y.

So, to apply this here:

Religious groups that support modest dress, the importance of the family, etc, are generally “conservative”.

The LDS Church is one such religious group.

However, LDS is an exception to the rule (or being thought of as conservative) because “it is a category all it’s own”.

Therefore, LDS is not conservative.

I just don’t understand this. Quite frankly, most LDS I know are proud of their conservative values.

 

[zerinus]

But in a post upthread you explicitly used the word “progressive”.

I will try and find that post # if I can so you can reference it.

ETA: The post is # 414. In that post, zerinus said (bold is my emphasis)

That said, I do not really know what zerinus meant here in his/her employment of the word “progressive.” Usually it tends to have a connotation that is associated with a non-conservative approach.

These are some of the definitions of “progressive” according to a Google search:

• favoring or promoting progress; “progressive schools”
• favoring or promoting reform (often by government action)
• gradually advancing in extent

I meant any of those.

 

[sablouwho]

You may think you are being “logical,” but you are anything but.

Zerinus, if I have incorrectly applied the rules of logic, I would be more than happy to have someone demonstrate how I have done so.

Perhaps instead of getting miffed and assuming (wrongly) that I am making a personal attack, you might instead consider the fact that I am simply saying that some of the points that you have made don’t seem to make much sense, at least not to me because as I see it, they appear to be based on faulty logic.

And, you might instead show me how I am applying these rules incorrectly? If you are not capable of doing so (or don’t have the time/inclination), I understand. But if that is the case, why not just be honest about it? Or maybe make a point to learn more about the rules of logical argumentation–it could only be a help to you to do so. Particularly when you find yourself in a “missionary situation”, knowing/following the rules of logic when discussing why you think the LDS church is true can only help you and your cause. It may help to remember that God likes order and logic is His invention (not mine!)

You are throwing a bunch of terminology around, and thinking that you are being “logical”. If you stopped trying to be “logiccal,” you might actually do better!

I am not sure what you mean by “do better” However, I am going to guess that it is meant as a put down, as I do not see a request on your part that I use particular criteria in order to do better.

As for “throwing a bunch of terminology around”, yes, I am indeed using terminology. I am really not sure why this is problematic. It doesn’t seem to be all that different from what you are doing. The only difference is the specific content of our arguments. You are using LDS prophecies and personal opinions/testimony to make your points, and I am using logical terminology to make mine.

On top of this, it is unfortunate that you seem to have added yet another logical fallacy onto the heap–you’ve just added an ad hominem (in what I am interpreting to be a snarky comment against me.) I really don’t see how that adds to the discussion.

Once again, I am interesting in the quality of the argument. If you feel that I was attacking you in my “throwing terminology around” I sincerely apologize to you at that was not my intent. However, this does not mean that I am going to give up on my desire to have discussions with CAF members that don’t violate the rules of logic.

 

[sablouwho]

These are some of the definitions of “progressive” according to a Google search:

• favoring or promoting progress; “progressive schools”
• favoring or promoting reform (often by government action)
• gradually advancing in extent

I meant any of those.

Okay, I see where you were going with this, it makes sense in the context you were using it. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[sablouwho]

Zerinus, just wanted to reference an example from someone else that shows referring to logical rules is not unheard of on a discussion board…(bold emphasis added below by me)

That’s quite a non-sequitur, Rebecca. I’m quite certain you are correct about this, but it has nothing to do with the point, does it?

I am not sure if you have interacted with dianaiad before, but she is LDS. Which is neither here nor there except for the fact that I would hate to think that someone would subscribe to a double standard in which it is considered ok for LDS to call out a logical fallacy but it is not okay for non-LDS to engage in the same practice?

 

[aspirant]

Ignore the “our missionaries” bit. It is the prophecy that followed that I was interested in.

Obviously I don’t believe it is a prophecy, but even if it were I don’t see any portion of the text the CC(RLDS) are “not fulfilling” that the LDS “are fulfilling.” Please clarify what portion of this text you think the LDS are accomplishing that the CC are not.

The LDS Church is the only one of them that has been, and is fulfilling this prophecy. The rest of them are floundering in the dust, and reduced to nothing.

I’ve interacted with members and missionaries of the CC(RLDS), so I know they are not “reduced to nothing.”

HOWEVER, my point still remains that even IF it were a prophecy, one can only say how it has been fulfilled in retrospect. The CoC/RLDS still exist, so in my opinion, it is too soon for the LDS to be doing their victory dance. If at some point in time that movement becomes extinct, it seems it would be more appropriate at that point to make the claims that you are making now.

Correct.

 

[rainman10]

I don’t think that the early christians were saying the trindentine mass during the early church. And most likely, it was not all said in latin but in the language of the people involved. I can not say that the early christian service resembled the Mass as catholic knew it before vatican II. I also have this understanding that the early service was also a communal event of love and fellowship where members could fellowship and experience the joy of each others company,especially during the time of persecution. Also, since many of the members were poor, I can not see the early christians going through a lot of pomp in priestly clothing.

The trindentine mass evolved and it evolved for a reason.

I don’t think early Christians served communion consisting of water in little paper cups and pieces of Wonder bread and they didn’t stand in front of the congregation professing that they knew that Joseph Smith was a true prophet

 

[rainman10]

ProdigalSon1,
How many of the church martyrs would have stood meekly by while their brother and friends were being massacred by a mob? Shame on them if they would have stood meekly by watching. Joseph Smith was a man of action–not a passive bystander when his brother and friends were being mobbed by men who had been allowed into a jail thus breaking the laws and any heart of justice that anyone has. It is an abhorrent act that they did. It is sickening to the soul of anyone with a sense of the dignity of humankind and the protection of the Constitution of the United States, including judicial protection.

Joseph Smith still holds those keys, and is using them in his role in the spirit world where there is a far greater work going on with far more people than in this world.

The Lord will indeed return to the earth triumphantly, and His words and promises will all be fulfilled.

I think a true martyr would have stepped up and voluntarily given himself up, to stand up for his belief and to save his friends and brothers.

 

[Answersplease]

mrm.org/10-questions

•I’ve read the Book of Mormon but have not prayed about it because the Bible tells me not to. The Bible says to test all things (1 Thess. 5:21; 1 John 4:1). God has given us a mind, and if a religion disagrees with God’s Word as found in the Bible, then it is to be rejected (Gal. 1:8; 2 Cor. 11:4).
•If I were to pray about the Book of Mormon and felt that God told me that it and your church were both wrong, would you leave? If not, what makes you think that your answer from the “Holy Ghost” is any better than mine?

 

[sablouwho]

•If I were to pray about the Book of Mormon and felt that God told me that it and your church were both wrong, would you leave? If not, what makes you think that your answer from the “Holy Ghost” is any better than mine?

Indeed, this is a very good question. One that I have myself.
hb

 

[TheosisM]

Indeed, this is a very good question. One that I have myself.
hb

That sort of question comes up all the time, not just in Mormon contexts. People will say that the Holy Spirit led them out of [insert any church], or told them that [insert any church] was not the one true church, and yet, the Holy Spirit apparently told other people that [insert any church] was the place to be, and is the one true church. People on this forum frequently say such things. So I think that the “bait” questions from MRM aren’t that great, since the same sort of statements/questioning is used within the Protestant-Catholic framework.

 

[peary]

How can the book be biblical, especially when it was supposedly written invisibly and the guy had to use sunglasses to view it? And Mormons take this seriously. Well, as P.T. Barnum says…

 

[sablouwho]

That sort of question comes up all the time, not just in Mormon contexts. People will say that the Holy Spirit led them out of [insert any church], or told them that [insert any church] was not the one true church, and yet, the Holy Spirit apparently told other people that [insert any church] was the place to be, and is the one true church. People on this forum frequently say such things.

Indeed–there seems to be a lot of musical chairs going on! I can’t expect to understand the HS and how he works.But what I do hope to get a better handle on is a sense of how this works in people, and how it relates to me specifically and my desire to become Catholic.

While I am very confident that the HS led me to believe in Jesus, and that I am therefore “meant” to be a Christian despite having Jewish blood, I cannot honestly say whether the HS is leading me to become Catholic.

But here is what I do know. In my 4 years as a Christian I’ve searched high and low for a church that seems to be a good fit for me. After my initial conversion to Christ, I wanted to go straight to the Catholic church but due to some advice I got from a dear and wise friend with a foot in both the Catholic and Protestant worlds (this was perhaps one of the only times that he could have steered me in a better direction) I went to a Protestant church that he recommended.

I’ve spent time looking in a lot of other churches–LDS included. And I’ve looked into some places that are not generally on the radar (such as the Swedenborgian Church, a fascinating place?!) So, I’ve really looked around!

And yet there are only a few places where I felt “at home” – Lutheran, Episcopal (liked their liturgy but they were too liberal even for me), Anglican (by that I mean mean some churches who have broken off from the Episcopal Church) and Catholic. Of these, I felt most at home in the Catholic context.

A lot of this has to do with how I was raised – I had extensive contact with Catholics growing up and my experiences with them were very positive.

I can’t even say that I truly believe that the CC is the “True Church” because I don’t believe that ANY church is 100% True. All I know is that I feel strongly that this is where I belong.

So I think that the “bait” questions from MRM aren’t that great, since the same sort of statements/questioning is used within the Protestant-Catholic framework.

Theosis, am I right to assume MRM is a web site? I am guessing it is either pro-LDS or anti-LDS?

 

[TheosisM]

Indeed–there seems to be a lot of musical chairs going on! I can’t expect to understand the HS and how he works.But what I do hope to get a better handle on is a sense of how this works in people, and how it relates to me specifically and my desire to become Catholic.

While I am very confident that the HS led me to believe in Jesus, and that I am therefore “meant” to be a Christian despite having Jewish blood, I cannot honestly say whether the HS is leading me to become Catholic.

But here is what I do know. In my 4 years as a Christian I’ve searched high and low for a church that seems to be a good fit for me. After my initial conversion to Christ, I wanted to go straight to the Catholic church but due to some advice I got from a dear and wise friend with a foot in both the Catholic and Protestant worlds (this was perhaps one of the only times that he could have steered me in a better direction) I went to a Protestant church that he recommended.

I’ve spent time looking in a lot of other churches–LDS included. And I’ve looked into some places that are not generally on the radar (such as the Swedenborgian Church, a fascinating place?!) So, I’ve really looked around!

And yet there are only a few places where I felt “at home” – Lutheran, Episcopal (liked their liturgy but they were too liberal even for me), Anglican (by that I mean mean some churches who have broken off from the Episcopal Church) and Catholic. Of these, I felt most at home in the Catholic context.

A lot of this has to do with how I was raised – I had extensive contact with Catholics growing up and my experiences with them were very positive.

I can’t even say that I truly believe that the CC is the “True Church” because I don’t believe that ANY church is 100% True. All I know is that I feel strongly that this is where I belong.

If you feel strongly that the Catholic Church is where you belong, then you should follow that.

Theosis, am I right to assume MRM is a web site? I am guessing it is either pro-LDS or anti-LDS?

Yes MRM=Mormonism Research Ministry, and was where Answersplease got the two statements about the Holy Spirit and Mormonism from. It’s “anti-LDS”.

 

[wyp8riot]

Okay, I see where you were going with this, it makes sense in the context you were using it. Thank you for the clarification.

I didn’t see the context of how the word was used?

I do see a problem with words Conservative and liberal , and progressive for the reasons you pointed out. they come with lots of assumptions and different meanings to different people and need CLARIFICATION.

It is a bit off topic but I consider myself a Constitutional Moderate.
As an LDS I believe the Original Intent of the Founding fathers and that they were inspired by God.
I do not agree that government is the solution to everything and is generally more of the problem than the solution.

That could be another thread if there is interest in discussion of the topic.

 

[sablouwho]

If you feel strongly that the Catholic Church is where you belong, then you should follow that.

I am!

I am just drawn to it. Even despite not agreeing with some teachings, and finding some of the history to be very bad. I’m drawn to it nonetheless…

 

[LestWeForget]

I am interested in why Sola Scripture is an acceptable add to authority but not the Mormon bible.

I may be misunderstood of both stand points. I don’t want 7 paragraph long answers, please.

Thank you.

 

[sablouwho]

I am interested in why Sola Scripture is an acceptable add to authority but not the Mormon bible.

I may be misunderstood of both stand points. I don’t want 7 paragraph long answers, please.

Thank you.

Well, Catholics don’t accept sola scriptura, which is a Protestant notion that originated, I believe, with Martin Luther. So from the Catholic perspective sola scriptura is not authoritative at all.

 

[LestWeForget]

Ah, thank you.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Is the question about whether it is Biblical to pray about the Book of Mormon? Well, if that is the question, might I answer with some other questions? Biblically, didn’t Jesus tell us to pray “lead us not into temptation?” Also did He tell us to do the Father’s Will or to pray about it? Does that mean we should pray about whether or not we should obey the Ten Commandments? Isn’t to continue to question when we have already have already been told, presumptuous?