Praying About the Book of Mormon - Is it Biblical?

[dianaiad]

Are you implying that Truth is relative? How do you explain it if one individual believes he or she is led by God to an understanding that the Book of Mormon is correct and that another individual is led by God to an understanding that it is false? How do you reconcile this?

No, I am implying nothing. I am saying straight out that I trust God not to decieve. Your entire point seems to be 'don’t ask Him because you might not get the answer you want…"

For ANY Christian, the Book of Mormon is a false scripture. And it is neither biblical nor does it come from any Church tradition. It was created through the process of “automatic writing”.

Well, no, it wasn’t. the Book of Mormon is simply another volume of scripture…another Testament of Christ, the way the books of Luke and Mark are testiments of Christ. Your opinion of it is noted, of course, but I don’t agree with you. Unlike you, I HAVE prayed about it.

dianaiad:

The point is, you have to ask with some faith; that is, faith that God won’t steer you wrong. Don’t you have that?

Re-read my answer above.

How do you know that?

I ask God about things all the time. If the answer I get is not in conformity with my Catholic Faith, then it is wrong.

I see.

I’ve mentioned this story before, but your answer here brings it back. It was one of those defining memories of life; like 9/11, or the death of President Kennedy, or the space shuttle explosion…I was watching a televangalist one day (I don’t remember why, but I have made certain never to watch another!) and he held a copy of the bible up in his hands, He said “If Jesus Christ Himself came down and told me that this book was false, I would turn my back on Him and hold to the book!”

I remember the reaction of the audience/congregation and the approving "AMENS!’ he recieved, and I was absolutely dumbstruck. Wasn’t he aware of what he just said? Aren’t you?

Think about it; if you aren’t willing to actually listen to the answer, with faith that He will NOT guide you in error (having faith in Christ) why bother asking? Are you so afraid that He WOULD tell you that something you believed was in error? Where is your faith?

The ‘source’ of all Truth is Christ and what He revealed in the Bible, and His Church, as well as the Holy Spirit. There is no other ‘source’.

You are correct, He is the source. HE is. We recieve answers to prayer through the Holy Ghost…and everything we have of religious truth comes from Him. Including the Bible and anything else He wants to tell us. You are telling Him to shut up.

Example: it is very simple for me to understand that it is not the Holy Spirit that convinces a Catholic to leave the Church for another Christian denomination or nonChristian religion.

Of course it is simple for you, because you have never tested the matter. Have you ever prayed for confirmation of your own beliefs? Why ARE you a faithful Catholic? …and that is a very serious question. Catholicism has a great deal of truth in it; I can absolutely understand how a faithful Christian can be Catholic…but I do not understand how a faithful Christian can be anything at all if he or she doesn’t actively seek, and listen to, divine guidance and confirmation of his or her faith.

I don’t know what Book of Mormon you’ve read but it doesn’t sound like the one I read. then again, you are probably biased and read into it what you want to.

Actually, I believe the exegesis is mine, and the eisegesis is yours. Your bias is pretty obvious…you had no intention of giving that book the trial it asked of you. I was born of LDS parents, true; I’m a fifth generation Mormon. However, like all of us, I had to come to my beliefs and faith on my own. I had to read, and pray, and recieve my answer.

And I am willing to trust God to guide me.

You…aren’t. It’s a simple as that.

And again, a Catholic Christian has the full body of the Faith and does not need to “pray over” the Book of Mormon, or ask God if it is authentic. He already knows that it isn’t.

How do you know that? Again, a very serious question.

 

[zaffiroborant]

…and those who simply refuse to take that challenge and pray because 'Christians don’t need to do that…" has absolutely no idea what being a person of faith…a CHRISTIAN of faith…is. A Christian who is afraid to ask God to reveal truth to him is a Christian in name only: for he has no faith.

Why is someone who feels no need to take the challenge not a “CHRISTIAN of faith”? Why can’t they simply be someone who feels the need to live and explore their own faith and disregard the challenge to read the BOM?

 

[peary]

No, I am implying nothing. I am saying straight out that I trust God not to decieve. Your entire point seems to be 'don’t ask Him because you might not get the answer you want…"

The question was: How do you reconcile the dichotomy when one person prays over, say, the book of Mormon and seemingly concludes that God led him or her to accept it as the truth, and another person does the same but concludes that God led him or her to reject it as the truth. There cannot be two truths.

Well, no, it wasn’t. the Book of Mormon is simply another volume of scripture…another Testament of Christ, the way the books of Luke and Mark are testiments of Christ. Your opinion of it is noted, of course, but I don’t agree with you. Unlike you, I HAVE prayed about it.

The book of Mormon was written centuries after the canonical Scriptures. It was written through an occult process called automatic writing which is a form of spiritualism. It is not a relevent ‘testament’ of Christ, and no Christian denomination accepts it.

I’ve mentioned this story before, but your answer here brings it back. It was one of those defining memories of life; like 9/11, or the death of President Kennedy, or the space shuttle explosion…I was watching a televangalist one day (I don’t remember why, but I have made certain never to watch another!) and he held a copy of the bible up in his hands, He said “If Jesus Christ Himself came down and told me that this book was false, I would turn my back on Him and hold to the book!”

As a Catholic Christian, that is why I believe there is the validity of the Church which gave us the canonical scriptures. The scriptures grew out of the Church, not the other way around. I don’t watch televangelists either. They have nothing to say to me.

Think about it; if you aren’t willing to actually listen to the answer, with faith that He will NOT guide you in error (having faith in Christ) why bother asking? Are you so afraid that He WOULD tell you that something you believed was in error? Where is your faith?

The answer is there. My faith is that He will not guide me into error. My faith in Christ and His Church reveals this to me in a very profound way. There is nothing in the Faith that I profess that is error-prone.

You are correct, He is the source. HE is. We recieve answers to prayer through the Holy Ghost…and everything we have of religious truth comes from Him. Including the Bible and anything else He wants to tell us. You are telling Him to shut up.

That is quite laughable. I have never told God to shut up. YOU are the one, actually, telling ME to shut up because I don’t agree with you.

Of course it is simple for you, because you have never tested the matter. Have you ever prayed for confirmation of your own beliefs? Why ARE you a faithful Catholic? …and that is a very serious question. Catholicism has a great deal of truth in it; I can absolutely understand how a faithful Christian can be Catholic…but I do not understand how a faithful Christian can be anything at all if he or she doesn’t actively seek, and listen to, divine guidance and confirmation of his or her faith.

I am a faithful Catholic Christian because Faith is a gift from God. You cannot ‘do’ Faith and you cannot ‘make’ Faith. It is a gift of Grace. All my life I have actively sought, and listened to Divine guidance, not only personally, but also through the Church. Christ has confirmed my Faith. The Catholic Church contains the full body of Faith that has come down to us from the times of the apostles. It doesn’t have “bits and pieces” of it. What is more, putting Faith into practice is a personal thing, and that is the challenge.

Actually, I believe the exegesis is mine, and the eisegesis is yours. Your bias is pretty obvious…you had no intention of giving that book the trial it asked of you. I was born of LDS parents, true; I’m a fifth generation Mormon. However, like all of us, I had to come to my beliefs and faith on my own. I had to read, and pray, and recieve my answer.

**It’s not a matter of bias. It’s a matter of understanding the Truth the way the Lord desires us to understand it. I cannot help you but will pray that you break out of the tomb that your religion has built around you. **

And I am willing to trust God to guide me.

You…aren’t. It’s a simple as that.

You assume a lot. Of course, you know about ‘assume’…

 

[dianaiad]

Why is someone who feels no need to take the challenge not a “CHRISTIAN of faith”? Why can’t they simply be someone who feels the need to live and explore their own faith and disregard the challenge to read the BOM?

This point was made to the larger question…not simply about the Book of Mormon, but about all religious truth, even that which you accept as your own. If you aren’t willing to ask God about religious truth, how can you call yourself a person of faith?

 

[Stephen168]

I don’t see the point of praying to see if something is true when we already know it is false. It would be like praying to see if “Alice in Wonderland” is true.

 

[dianaiad]

The question was: How do you reconcile the dichotomy when one person prays over, say, the book of Mormon and seemingly concludes that God led him or her to accept it as the truth, and another person does the same but concludes that God led him or her to reject it as the truth. There cannot be two truths.

First…would you mind using the standard protocol for quoting and answering posts? I realize that it might be easier for you to simply change fonts and comment, but it makes replying to your posts a LOT more complicated for the person to whom you are writing. I’m having to do a lot of fiddling around here in order to get the format back to where you can easily do what you do, and, quite frankly, it’s your turn to fiddle.

Now, as to the question…there are several possible answers to that one…and it is a false dichotomy you are setting up. In fact, the Book of Mormon could be true–and God could confirm it. It could be false, and God could confirm that. It could be true, but God thinks you would grow in faith better elsewhere. It could be true, and God could confirm it, but you aren’t listening. It could be true, but you sabotaged the process of asking because the last thing on earth you want to know is that it is true. Both the Book of Mormon and the faith you are coming from could be false. The book’s origins could be false–but it could contain some really good moral teachings (I don’t know anybody who argues with that one, actually…about it containing good moral teachings, that is.) There could be no God and you are simply fooling yourself no matter what answer you come back with.

My personal theory is that, since the Book of Mormon IS true, the possibilities are narrowed considerably: you get the confirmation, you sabotaged the process (and that one encompasses all the varied shades of prejudice, fear and scepticism) , God wants you elsewhere for now, at least,

One thing I have had lots of experience with is this: those who tell me that they got a ‘witness’ that the Book of Mormon was utterly and completely false with no truth in it are, in every single case, coming from a prejudiced and antagonistic viewpoint; they either refused to try the ‘challenge,’ or sabotaged the process. Those who sincerely try it and come back saying ‘it’s not for me,’ or “I don’t think that this is scripture the way the bible is…” but who acknowledge that it does have some good teachings in it…they may have sabotaged the process, OR they may simply need to be elsewhere for now.

You are correct; there cannot be two truths…but the context in which one finds the truth might not be the same for everybody. For instance, I know of no religion on the planet that does NOT have some form of 'do unto others as you would have others do unto you." That is TRUTH…and it remains so no matter what else is attached to it. I know of few Christian faiths that do not have “Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, the Savior of mankind” at the very core of their faiths. That’s Truth. It’s not relativism…it’s pure truth.

The book of Mormon was written centuries after the canonical Scriptures.

Actually, no…some of it was written at the same time the gospels were. Some of it was written later. It was TRANSLATED in the early 1900’s. there is quite a difference.

It was written through an occult process called automatic writing which is a form of spiritualism. It is not a relevent ‘testament’ of Christ, and no Christian denomination accepts it.

First, this is the second time you have made this claim. It is not factual, not even factual if you believe that JS was indeed a fraud. Second, you are begging a huge question here about the “no 'Christian denomination accepts it.” Mormons are Christians, because Jesus Christ is the center of our faith. Mormons accept it. Ergo, some Christians accept it.

As a Catholic Christian, that is why I believe there is the validity of the Church which gave us the canonical scriptures. The scriptures grew out of the Church, not the other way around. I don’t watch televangelists either. They have nothing to say to me.

THIS one should, because you sound just like him. Tell me: if you get your testimony of the scriptures as a result of your testimony of your church, how do you know your church is true? Really…HOW DO YOU KNOW? What process was there that instilled in you your belief?

The answer is there. My faith is that He will not guide me into error. My faith in Christ and His Church reveals this to me in a very profound way. There is nothing in the Faith that I profess that is error-prone.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT???

That is quite laughable. I have never told God to shut up. YOU are the one, actually, telling ME to shut up because I don’t agree with you.

I dare you to show me where I have told you to shut up, stop writing or anything else. Tell me; do you often use such blatant untruths in your debate style?

…and on that note, I"m done.

 

[peary]

First…would you mind using the standard protocol for quoting and answering posts? I realize that it might be easier for you to simply change fonts and comment, but it makes replying to your posts a LOT more complicated for the person to whom you are writing. I’m having to do a lot of fiddling around here in order to get the format back to where you can easily do what you do, and, quite frankly, it’s your turn to fiddle.

I have macular degeneration and it is much easier for me to see with a darkened font than regular. If this bothers you, then I suggest that you just put me on ignore. No one else in these forums seems to have a problem with my handicap.

Now, as to the question…there are several possible answers to that one…and it is a false dichotomy you are setting up. In fact, the Book of Mormon could be true–and God could confirm it. It could be false, and God could confirm that. It could be true, but God thinks you would grow in faith better elsewhere. It could be true, and God could confirm it, but you aren’t listening. It could be true, but you sabotaged the process of asking because the last thing on earth you want to know is that it is true. Both the Book of Mormon and the faith you are coming from could be false. The book’s origins could be false–but it could contain some really good moral teachings (I don’t know anybody who argues with that one, actually…about it containing good moral teachings, that is.) There could be no God and you are simply fooling yourself no matter what answer you come back with.

You are writing in circles and not making any sense.

My personal theory is that, since the Book of Mormon IS true, the possibilities are narrowed considerably: you get the confirmation, you sabotaged the process (and that one encompasses all the varied shades of prejudice, fear and scepticism) , God wants you elsewhere for now, at least,

God wants me where I am supposed to be: in His one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.

Actually, no…some of it was written at the same time the gospels were. Some of it was written later. It was TRANSLATED in the early 1900’s. there is quite a difference.

There is no historical validation that the book of mormon was written during the time the gospels were written. No written records exist of this book. And again, how was it translated? With gold-colored glasses? And from a vision? Oh please.

First, this is the second time you have made this claim. It is not factual, not even factual if you believe that JS was indeed a fraud. Second, you are begging a huge question here about the “no 'Christian denomination accepts it.” Mormons are Christians, because Jesus Christ is the center of our faith. Mormons accept it. Ergo, some Christians accept it.

Unfortunately, mormons are not Christians as they do not baptize in accordance with neither the Church nor the New Testament scriptures. Mormon baptisms are irrelevent.

THIS one should, because you sound just like him. Tell me: if you get your testimony of the scriptures as a result of your testimony of your church, how do you know your church is true? Really…HOW DO YOU KNOW? What process was there that instilled in you your belief?

SANCTIFYING GRACE.

 

[twopekinguys]

I don’t see the point of praying to see if something is true when we already know it is false. It would be like praying to see if “Alice in Wonderland” is true.

I was going to say a Stephen King novel…

 

[Stephen168]

I was going to say a Stephen King novel…

I like to read but I’ve always found it hard to read fiction, which is why I’ve never been able to read the Book of Mormon. One of the very few fiction books I’ve ever read was ‘Alice in Wonderland’ My wife likes Stephen King, but I wait for the movie.

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad;6493368:

First…would you mind using the standard protocol for quoting and answering posts? I realize that it might be easier for you to simply change fonts and comment, but it makes replying to your posts a LOT more complicated for the person to whom you are writing. I’m having to do a lot of fiddling around here in order to get the format back to where you can easily do what you do, and, quite frankly, it’s your turn to fiddle.

I have macular degeneration and it is much easier for me to see with a darkened font than regular. If this bothers you, then I suggest that you just put me on ignore. No one else in these forums seems to have a problem with my handicap.

It isn’t the darkened font that is the problem, peary. I don’t care if you make the font do Pilates and every other letter is pink with yellow polka dots. Make your font as dark, or as large, as you want to. I was not trying to offend you…I was trying to help you so that this whole thing is easier for your readers AND for you. It is easier if your readers do not have to use extensive cut and paste plus html tagging in order to convert your posts. However,if that is a problem for you, I’ll deal with it–(and I was supposed to know you had vision problems, how, exactly?) .

You have macular degeneration. That is unfortunate and I’m sorry. If it interferes with using the quote function, which is that little yellow icon that looks like a cartoon dialogue bubble at the top next to the ‘insert image’ picture of a mountain, then it does. (shrug) We’ll deal.

You are writing in circles and not making any sense.

Actually, I believe I am, but not everybody agrees with me on that.

God wants me where I am supposed to be: in His one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.

How do you know that?

This question is not meant to be a challenge…it’s not a demand for proof or anything like that. It is a sincere question. How did you come to believe that your personal beliefs are the one and only true ones? What was the process? What happened? What did you do…who did you believe, what happened?

Faith never occurs in a vacuum…I don’t care what you’ve heard. So…where did you get yours?

There is no historical validation that the book of mormon was written during the time the gospels were written. No written records exist of this book. And again, how was it translated? With gold-colored glasses? And from a vision? Oh please.

I don’t give a hoot whether you believe in it or not, m’friend. Just consider this: there is no, and I repeat, NO, historical validation of any of Jesus’ miracles, or for any of the miraculous happenings of the Old or New Testament. In fact, many people claim that there is no, repeat, NO, historical validation of the existance of one Jesus of Nazareth at all.

…yet you and I believe in all those miracles; that they did happen. I know why I believe in them. Why do you?

The point is, you can’t use two different standards here…one set for your beliefs and another for mine. Whatever it is you use to validate the divine nature of the miracles of Christ, or even that those events happened in any way at all, THAT is what you have to use to validate the truth of any other religious claim. You can’t use science and archeology unless you will accept their judgment for your own beliefs…and that is going to cause problems for you.

cont. on next post…

 

[dianaiad]

cont. from previous post…

Unfortunately, mormons are not Christians as they do not baptize in accordance with neither the Church nor the New Testament scriptures. Mormon baptisms are irrelevent.

Well, we believe that Catholic baptisms are ‘irrelevent’ (though ‘invalid’ is the more accurate term). However, we do not consider Catholicism to be unChristian. The definition of ‘Christian’ does NOT include 'valid baptism." Look it up in the dictionary.

…and do NOT tell me that the dictionary doesn’t define Christianity, because it most certainly does. One group, no matter how large, does NOT get to reserve a title that clearly applies to all who share the basic requirement for itself. All that is required to be a Christian is to follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as he believes them to be, and to claim the name.

That doesn’t make him ‘saved.’ It doesn’t mean he’s RIGHT. It doesn’t mean that he is better or more righteous than any other being. It simply means that he is a Christian, because Christ is at the base of his religous beliefs.

…and you, sir, do not get to insist that I accept your definition, because I do not, and I’m the one who has the defining definition used in the English language to back me up. You don’t.

dianaiad:

THIS one should, because you sound just like him. Tell me: if you get your testimony of the scriptures as a result of your testimony of your church, how do you know your church is true? Really…HOW DO YOU KNOW? What process was there that instilled in you your belief?

SANCTIFYING GRACE.

Sorry, but no.

As unctuous as your yell might sound…no.

If that were all there was to it, it wouldn’t matter what you believed to be true, would it? It would all be God–and you could be a Mormon, or a Jehovah’s Witness, or a Budhist, or a member of a Mayan death cult…if "Sanctifying Grace’ were all that was required, nobody would need to be taught religion at all.

Please do not get me wrong…I’m not being disrespectful of the concept of grace. I believe it exists…but you aren’t telling us how you understand that you have been the recipient of it.

The question isn’t “How does God do this?” It’s “how do YOU know?”

And yes, I am pushing you to the wall here. I know it…but you need to be pushed there and need to be made to THINK about why you believe what you do, and why your belief is as fervent as it seems to be, so that you are not willing to even look at different ideas. Why?

Because a man who doesn’t understand why is faith is as it is will lose it. It is exactly what the Savior was talking about when He spoke of building houses upon sand and upon rock. If you don’t KNOW why you believe what you believe, your house is based upon the driest and shiftiest of sand dunes.

I know why I believe what I do; I studied (and I studied more than my own faith!) and I prayed, and I thought, and I ‘pondered,’ and I studied some more…and all the time I did that I prayed for guidance. I got that guidance through the Holy Ghost, and that is why I believe as I do. I had it confirmed for me.

Because of that personal confirmation and answer to prayer, and because I continually study and pray about these things, I find truth in Catholicism, in every Christian faith I’ve seen, in every belief system I’ve seen, as well…and all those truths end up being the same Truth…that God is, that He sent His Only Begotten Son to suffer and die for us, and that this Son arose on the third day. No matter what strange things may be hung ON these things, those statements are TRUTH.

And that makes me a Christian whether you like it or not. It makes YOU one, whether the Baptists like it or not.

…and I didn’t come to believe these things because of archeology or history, or because centuries of priests (who, for over 1000 years made very certain that the common person wasn’t allowed to see the scriptures…) told me so, or even because my mother and father taught me from childhood. I came to believe these things because I studied, and I asked…and I got the answer.

…and "sanctifying grace’ is available for everybody who accepts it, peary. Everybody. So…since you seem to believe that you have it and I don’t, would you care to tell me why you do and I don’t?

 

[dianaiad]

I was going to say a Stephen King novel…

Neither Caroll nor King claim to have written a book of scripture. There is no intent in either book to be taken as anything but what they are; the one a particularly disturbing children’s story (brother, the Jungian archetypes run more rampant than watch wearing rabbits!), and the other the author of really scary horror tales.

You might at least TRY to compare apples to apples.

 

[Stephen168]

You might at least TRY to compare apples to apples.

We did. fiction to fiction. I thought it was obvious.

 

[Answersplease]

**I have macular degeneration…
**

**
God bless you.**

 

[Answersplease]

I don’t see the point of praying to see if something is true when we already know it is false. It would be like praying to see if “Alice in Wonderland” is true.

Answersplease:

You are correct.

There is no point in praying whether or not Jim Jones’ religion the “People’s Temple” was the one true religion.

There is no point in praying about the truth of any cult that clearly goes against The Holy Bible.

I saw a movie where Satan sort of befriended a man.
There is no point in praying about whether Satan is your friend.

There is no point in praying about whether phlegm from a used handkerchief will get up and dance around when you are not looking.

 

[Answersplease]

Why would Catholics want to ‘pray’ over an invalid scripture?

"Answersplease:

If you refute all the arguments of a Mormon missionary, they might ask you to pray about the Book of Mormon as a last resort.

Some people might confuse heartburn with the “burning in the bosom”, or by the power of suggestion some people might “think” they feel something when they read and pray about the Book of Mormon.

If you refuse to pray about the Book of Mormon, then your trust in God might be called into question like one poster is doing here.

The test of Moroni 10:4, however, is a “NO WIN SITUATION”, because the verse gurantees that ONLY A PRO-MORMON OUTCOME IS VALID.

A negative outcome would prove the Book of Mormon and the Mormon religion as being FALSE. Therefore a negative outcome (The Holy Spirit telling you that the Book of Mormon is false) is INVALID.

A negative outcome means that you were not sincere or had some other defect that prevented you from getting a pro-Mormon outcome.

I don’t see the point of praying to see if something is true when we already know it is false. It would be like praying to see if “Alice in Wonderland” is true.

Answersplease:

You are correct.

There is no point in praying whether or not Jim Jones’ religion the “People’s Temple” was the one true religion.

There is no point in praying about the truth of any cult that clearly goes against The Holy Bible.

I saw a movie where the devil sort of befriended a man.
There is no point in praying about whether the devil is your friend.

There is no point in praying about whether a handkerchief will get up and dance around when you are not looking.

 

[Stephen168]

The test of Moroni 10:4, however, is a “NO WIN SITUATION”, because the verse gurantees that ONLY A PRO-MORMON OUTCOME IS VALID.

A negative outcome means that you were not sincere or had some other defect that prevented you from getting a pro-Mormon outcome.

I believe this is the Catch-22 joke of the test.

 

[Xavierlives]

Answersplease:
I think I’ve said it on this thread before, this is why you pray for truth. This is why you pray for wisdom from God.

You don’t seek affirmation of the truth. You seek the truth and affirmation will follow. This trick was used in the Garden and mankind has still not learned? Satan said to the woman, “Blah! You won’t die! God’s word is faulty. Seek affirmation of my truth and bite of this fruit.” But we know God’s word is truth.

 

[dianaiad]

I think I’ve said it on this thread before, this is why you pray for truth. This is why you pray for wisdom from God.

You don’t seek affirmation of the truth. You seek the truth and affirmation will follow. This trick was used in the Garden and mankind has still not learned? Satan said to the woman, “Blah! You won’t die! God’s word is faulty. Seek affirmation of my truth and bite of this fruit.” But we know God’s word is truth.

Brother, do you have a strange version of the Bible, if you think that’s what Satan said to Eve.

 

[sablouwho]

I believe this is the Catch-22 joke of the test.

Unfortunately, (and I know you didn’t mean it this way, though) it winds up not being all that funny when LDS that I know personally do think there must be something wrong with me, or my sincerity or earnestness or prayer methods when, despite praying intensely, sincerely, and over a long period of time about whether I should join the LDS church, God was silent.

Whereas, when I started seriously investigating the Catholic thing, many prayers were answered in “coincidental” ways that were I believe, as they say, God masquerading as coincidence.