Praying for someone who is in mortal sin?

[mommamaree]

On another thread in Moral Theology, I saw that someone made a comment about St. Paul informing us that it does no good to pray for someone who is in mortal sin. Is this true? Which epistle would I find that in?
I am very curious about this because I am sure that I would not be in a state of grace today were it not for the prayers of people who loved me and who persisted in praying for me as I wandered in a spiritual wasteland for several years. Those prayers, I am confident, were effective in my conversion to Catholicism and in learning about sin. I am thankful no one wrote me off as a bad egg and despaired of the effectiveness of their earnest prayers for me. But maybe this is a different situation? Since I did not have a clear understanding of sin, nor did I know certain things were mortal sins?

 

[LoyalViews]

No, Praying for someone mortal sin is helping them get out of it. What Paul means is that there is no sense in praying for those who are always, and always will be sinful.

Then again, I could be wrong.

 

[Bookcat]

On another thread in Moral Theology, I saw that someone made a comment about St. Paul informing us that it does no good to pray for someone who is in mortal sin. Is this true? Which epistle would I find that in?
I am very curious about this because I am sure that I would not be in a state of grace today were it not for the prayers of people who loved me and who persisted in praying for me as I wandered in a spiritual wasteland for several years. Those prayers, I am confident, were effective in my conversion to Catholicism and in learning about sin. I am thankful no one wrote me off as a bad egg and despaired of the effectiveness of their earnest prayers for me. But maybe this is a different situation? Since I did not have a clear understanding of sin, nor did I know certain things were mortal sins?

Of course we are to pray for those in mortal sin!
JOHN did not mean one could not pray for those in mortal sin…

by all means do.

 

[mommamaree]

Of course we are to pray for those in mortal sin!
JOHN did not mean one could not pray for those in mortal sin…

by all means do.

By JOHN, do you mean St. John, and his Gospel? Please forgive my ignorance, but the poster in the other thread said St. Paul, so I don’t know who said what regarding praying for others. It’s weird that I do not recall this, as I have read through the Bible several times, and never remember such a statement. I would love the correct reference, and a better explanation regarding the meaning of any such statement by an apostle. Thanks to those who have reassured me, and thanks in advance to any who can give me the reference and/or clarify my understanding.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

By JOHN, do you mean St. John, and his Gospel? Please forgive my ignorance, but the poster in the other thread said St. Paul, so I don’t know who said what regarding praying for others. It’s weird that I do not recall this, as I have read through the Bible several times, and never remember such a statement. I would love the correct reference, and a better explanation regarding the meaning of any such statement by an apostle. Thanks to those who have reassured me, and thanks in advance to any who can give me the reference and/or clarify my understanding.

16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

1 John 5:16-17

 

[mommamaree]

1 John 5:16-17

Thank you Joe Kelley!

Now…does anyone know what to make of this reference? How does the Church teach that we are to pray for those we know are in sin? And how can we ever know if someone else’s sin is mortal, if we are exhorted to pray for even our enemies, rather than hate them? Wouldn’t sitting around trying to judge the status of a person’s sins be hateful and judgemental when it would be so much easier to just sit down and pray for them? I hope someone can point me in the right direction to learn what the Church teaches regarding this scripture. Thanks.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The foot note in the new RSV-CE, which fortunately arrived this week, New Testament notes:

…It is unclear why John does not ask believers to pray for persons guilty of deadly sins. Whatever the reason, his words do not imply that such a one is beyond the reach of God’s mercy or incapable of future repentance. … Venial offenses can be forgiven by prayers of contrition and other means, but, ordinarily, mortal sin can not be forgiven apart from the absolution and restorative grace of the Sacrament of Reconciliation… See 1 John 1:9.

Speculation: Maybe we can join in their prayer for forgiveness of venial sins, but can only pray that they will be given the grace to repent of mortal sins. My :twocents:

 

[mommamaree]

The foot note in the new RSV-CE, which fortunately arrived this week, New Testament notes: Speculation: Maybe we can join in their prayer for forgiveness of venial sins, but can only pray that they will be given the grace to repent of mortal sins. My :twocents:

Gotcha! So praying for the forgiveness of venial sins of others is a legitimate request we may ask of God, but praying for forgiveness of a mortal sin of another is not going to accomplish anything on its own, so we would do better to pray for the person to repent of their sin and reconcile and seek their own forgiveness? Have I gotten it right this time?
Thanks so much for everyone who has helped me. It made sense when I became aware of the different possible prayer intentions we may have on behalf of someone else.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Gotcha! So praying for the forgiveness of venial sins of others is a legitimate request we may ask of God, but praying for forgiveness of a mortal sin of another is not going to accomplish anything on its own, so we would do better to pray for the person to repent of their sin and reconcile and seek their own forgiveness? Have I gotten it right this time? . . .

That is strictly my idea. I don’t think it violates any Church teaching, but I can’t guarantee it as the answer.

I am building on something I got from Sister Ann Shields. She suggests that those who are far from God cannot pray for themselves. Thus we should intercede with God that He give them the graces needed to be open to His message. If they do open up to Him they can then pray for the rest themselves. She also cautioned that to be truly fruitful in your prayer for them you will have to share their suffering. [Don’t seek the suffering; God will provide it unasked.]

 

[thistle]

Thank you Joe Kelley!

Now…does anyone know what to make of this reference? How does the Church teach that we are to pray for those we know are in sin? And how can we ever know if someone else’s sin is mortal, if we are exhorted to pray for even our enemies, rather than hate them? Wouldn’t sitting around trying to judge the status of a person’s sins be hateful and judgemental when it would be so much easier to just sit down and pray for them? I hope someone can point me in the right direction to learn what the Church teaches regarding this scripture. Thanks.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 16. A sin which is not unto death…and life shall be given to him. It is hard to determine what St. John here calls a sin which is not unto death, and a sin which is unto death. The difference cannot be the same as betwixt sins that are called venial and mortal; for he says, that if a man pray for his brother who commits a sin that is not unto death, life shall be given to him: therefore such a one had before lost the life of grace, and been guilty of what is commonly called a mortal sin. And when he speaks of a sin that is unto death, and adds these words, I do not say that any one should ask for that sin, it cannot be supposed that St. John would say this of every mortal sin, but only of some heinous sins which are very seldom remitted, because such sinners very seldom repent. By a sin therefore which is not unto death, interpreters commonly understand a wilful apostacy from the faith, and from the known truth, when a sinner hardened by his own ingratitude becomes deaf to all admonitions, will do nothing for himself, but runs on to final impenitence. Nor yet does St. John say that such a sin is never remitted, or cannot be remitted, but only has these words, I do not say that any one should ask for the remission of that sin; that is, though we must pray for all sinners whatsoever, yet man cannot pray for such sinners with such a confidence of obtaining always their petitions, as St. John said before, ver. 14. Whatever exposition we follow on this verse, our faith teaches us from the holy Scriptures, that God desires not the death of any sinner, but that he be converted and live. See Ezechiel xxxiii. 11. Though men’s “sins be as the scarlet, they shall be made as white as snow.” (Isaias i. 18.) It is the will of God that every one come to the knowledge of truth and be saved. See John vi. 40. There is no sin so great but which God is willing to forgive, and has left power in his Church to remit the most enormous sins; so that no sinner need despair of pardon, nor will any sinner perish but by his own fault. (Witham) — A sin unto death. Some understand this of final impenitence, or of dying in mortal sin, which is the only sin that never can be remitted; but, it is probable, he may also comprise under this name the sin of apostacy from the faith, and some other such henious sins as are seldom and hardly remitted: and therefore he gives little encouragement to such as pray for these sinners, to expect what they ask. (Challoner)

Ver. 17. All iniquity[4] is sin. The sense here is, that sin is always an injury or an injustice done to God; but though every sin implies such an injury and an offence against God, yet there are different degrees in such injuries, which are not always such an injustice as St. John calls the sin unto death. (Witham)

 

[ready]

— A sin unto death. Some understand this of final impenitence, or of dying in mortal sin, which is the only sin that never can be remitted; but, it is probable, he may also comprise under this name the sin of apostacy from the faith, and some other such henious sins as are seldom and hardly remitted: and therefore he gives little encouragement to such as pray for these sinners, to expect what they ask. (Challoner)

)

When people we know stop going to Church and believe their own truths, deviating from orthodox Church teaching, are they the apostates from the faith whose sin is seldom or hardly remitted that is mentioned in the above passage?..and what other sins would be sins that are seldom and hardly remitted I wonder?

 

[Salvatore123]

Pardon me for throwing in my two cents after such good responses . . . I hope the following is considered a contribution and helps.

Remember: when we pray for others, we are not praying for bodies, we are praying for SOULS and an OBJECTIVE regarding that soul. This, by definition AND teaching of the Church, means we are praying for those bodily alive and may confess (which IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR THAT PERSON if he is in a state of mortal sin) before he dies, AS WELL AS THOSE WHO HAVE ALREADY DIED AND ARE WAITING IN PURGATORY TO GAIN ENTRANCE INTO HEAVEN (which, by definition, CANNOT be someone who died in a state of mortal sin).

We KNOW those in purgatory will ultimately get into heaven - it is simply a matter of “degree of purification” that is necessary, and the understanding that Church teaching tells us that we may partially or fully remit with our prayers the “captive souls” that Peter refers to in one of his letters.

The preceding paragraph relies heavily on the teaching that prayers are considered as “gold added to the treasury”.

Also, we must keep in mind that our final destination is determined IMMEDIATELY upon our bodily death.

ready said: " . . . and what other sins would be sins that are seldom and hardly remitted I wonder?"

I do not mean to sound like a “know it all” with this statement, but I simply do not see the “difficulty” with determining what sins “are seldom and hardly remitted”. To me (and I may be a simpleton for thinking this is so simple) the key is NOT to try and think of an all encompassing itemized listing of mortal sins that are “seldom and hardly remitted”. Those sins, by definition, can ONLY be mortals sins (remember: venials sins are ALWAYS remitted), and by reasoning with the above teachings I pointed out, and ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE contrition on the part of the sinner.

My conclusions (and again - call me simpleton if it fits) depend heavily on the OBJECT of our prayers:

1. Praying for the forgiveness of venial sins of others, both live and dead, helps to remit the purification that takes place with purgatory.
2. Praying for the forgiveness of mortal sins of others who have already died, does NO GOOD, as they are already in hell. No amount of praying will get them out. Thus, no remittance can occur for the soul of a dead man who died with mortal sin on his soul.
3. Praying for the forgiveness of mortal sins of others who have NOT YET DIED, (and the key here is my wording) does NO GOOD WITHOUT CONTRITION BEFORE DEATH by others.
4. Finally, the last “object” (again - NOT a listing) is praying that one who is in mortal sin AND IS STILL ALIVE come to his senses before he physically dies and confesses. Here, you are not asking God to forgive a living person’s mortal sins, as that cannot happen without the cooperation of that person’s soul. You are praying that a “minor miracle” occurs before physical death.

Caveats:

A. Do not get lost on the “time” or “place” aspect of purgatory. Those have no real meaning for souls as they do for live beings who walk the earth. I have always considered purgatory as “degree” or “amount” of purification. This is like finally growing up as an adult and “realizing” the literal heaven is not above us with the literal hell below us. Dante did too well a job in describing the afterlife

B. I mentioned the word “object” above and I believe it is crucial as to WHAT we are actually praying for. Now, does that mean that the prayers of someone who does not “articulate” a proper object will not be heard by God? Of course not - God will see into the souls of those praying and understand immediately.

I hope this helps - and is considered orthodox Catholic teaching and reasoning

 

[ready]

When I know people who are objectively commiting mortal sins (not attending Mass weekly, contacepting, holding beliefs contrary to Church’s teaching on abortion, etc.) I pray for their conversion and salvation, I pray that they repent…and a priest once told me to pray for final penitence for them, which is similar to my usual prayer for these people. These prayers would be the best prayers I could pray for these souls.

 

[Salvatore123]

ready:

First, and I mean no disrespect in saying this, you don’t KNOW the soul of another person. Only God has a window into the other person’s soul.

Second, even if you were correct in your “guess” about someone being in objective mortal sin, the answer to your question, given your premises, is “none”.

Mortal sin REQUIRES contrition on the part of the person in mortal sin. No amount of prayer can replace contrition.

A hard teaching, but a fact of life.

 

[ready]

ready:

First, and I mean no disrespect in saying this, you don’t KNOW the soul of another person. Only God has a window into the other person’s soul.

Second, even if you were correct in your “guess” about someone being in objective mortal sin, the answer to your question, given your premises, is “none”.

Mortal sin REQUIRES contrition on the part of the person in mortal sin. No amount of prayer can replace contrition.

A hard teaching, but a fact of life.

I was careful to use the word “objectively” because I do not judge people’s souls - I know I can only see their actions…and as Fr. Corapi says: we can judge people’s actions. If someone is objectively commiting a mortal sin (and we can judge this) I have enough love for the person to pray for their conversion and salvation, even though they may not actually be in mortal sin. Praying for a person’s conversion when they are only objectively commiting mortal sin is not wasteful, but a good thing…they might actually truly be in mortal sin and be in need of the grace of conversion.

 

[ready]

Also, I want to say that I pray for my own conversion, my own salvation, my own repentance, and my own final penintance…though I can say with moral certitude that I am not in mortal sin. We all are in need of the graces of conversion, salvation, repentance, and final penitance because we are all sinners and must repent and convert every day. Also, even though we may be penitant of all our sins at this very moment who is to say we won’t need this grace at the end of our lives.

If I pray for these things for myself it is good and right that I pray for these graces to be bestowed upon others, as well - especailly those who are objectively commiting mortal sins and whose souls might, in fact, be in real danger of damnation. If we can’t see into a person’s soul to make sure they are safe and right with God we can at least pray for them in the way we do for ourselves to assure them the special graces we all need.

 

[po18guy]

Thank you Joe Kelley!

Now…does anyone know what to make of this reference? How does the Church teach that we are to pray for those we know are in sin? And how can we ever know if someone else’s sin is mortal, if we are exhorted to pray for even our enemies, rather than hate them? Wouldn’t sitting around trying to judge the status of a person’s sins be hateful and judgemental when it would be so much easier to just sit down and pray for them? I hope someone can point me in the right direction to learn what the Church teaches regarding this scripture. Thanks.

We have no authority to judge - that remains with our Lord. We do have five senses, logic, reason, intelligence and our perceptions. If we know that someone is in sin, we are called not only to offer brotherly correction, but also to pray for them. After all, God does not want to lose even one soul. If we fail to offer correction, we bring judgment upon ourselves for our failure to act. From the penitential rite at the beginning of mass: “I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault; in my thoughts and in my words; in what I have done and in what I have failed to do…”

 

[Salvatore123]

ready:

I misinterpreted your use of the word “objectively”. I thought you meant that one could, using reason and one’s senses, conclude that if a certain person died, then based on what you had seen before that person’s death, “objectively” (relying solely on what you had seen) conclude whether that person would ultimately go to heaven or hell. I think that, by definition, reaching such a conclusion that you feel is definitive, for anyone other than yourself, would automatically subjective.

Otherwise, I agree completely with everything you said. I see absolutely no harm in praying for all people that you know, whether they are “objectively” sinning or not, pricesely because we do NOT know, subjectively, if they are commiting mortal sin (which requires that window to be able to know their conscience).

Finally, I don’t think anyone would argue that it is good and right that we pray for ourselves. The Our Father is the “primary” prayer taught us to pray, and its words clearly indicate praying for oneself by the person praying.

 

[ready]

Thanks for understanding what I meant by the word “objectively”, Salvatore123.

 

[gavanhe]

Perhaps related to your query
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6785682#post6785682
Gerry