Praying for the dead is useless?

[FreakyLocz14]

My Protestant grandfather was earlier talking about how it’s useless to pray for the dead because their condition (Heaven or Hell) is eternal and can’t be changed.

How should I answer him?

 

[DavidFilmer]

Your protestant grandfather is correct, up to a point. There is no prayer on earth that can redeem anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin, and is thus consigned to hell.

But your protestant grandfather has an incomplete idea of the afterlife. He believes in heaven and hell, but (presumably) not purgatory. Purgatory is a place where we go if we carry the stain of venial sin to our graves. The experience of purgatory (whether you accept the Latin idea of a punitive existence, or the Greek idea of an empty existence) can be mitigated by our prayers.

Even if we pray for someone who is actually condemned to hell, our prayers are not “wasted.” No prayer is wasted. All prayer has merit, and merit which is unable to be applied as intended is applied to the “Spiritual Treasury” of the Church, which the Church can dispense through Indulgences.

HOWEVER, I will borrow from a famous philosopher: A man comes to his house to find it engulfed in flames. He prays that his family has escaped safely. But, of course, the fate of his family is already determined - if they are in the house, they are dead, and if they escaped the house, they are alive. One might argue that his prayer cannot possibly have any effect. But God sees everything in the eternal “now.” He could hear the prayer of the man and apply its merits to the man’s family, even though the man has not “yet” made his prayer.

“Time” is a tricky thing to apply to God.

 

[Heart_Foam]

Well, did the dead person accept Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross as payment for his sins, or not? How will praying change that? He/she will be judged on his own faith, not the faith of others. Otherwise, God is not fair.

If praying for the dead has any bearing on salvation or time spent in purgatory, then some dead people are just lucky in that more people back on earth are praying for them than others. They’ll get out sooner, and through no merit of their own.

 

[JerryZ]

Well, did the dead person accept Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross as payment for his sins, or not? How will praying change that? He/she will be judged on his own faith, not the faith of others. Otherwise, God is not fair.

If praying for the dead has any bearing on salvation or time spent in purgatory, then some dead people are just lucky in that more people back on earth are praying for them than others. They’ll get out sooner, and through no merit of their own.

That is an assumption that fails what Jesus really wants of us. We are His body and we are all connected. Catholics are encouraged to offer prayers for the souls in Purgatory no matter if we do not know them. They are “family” non the less and we should pray for them.
Who knows we might end up one day in the same situation. I hope my future brothers and systers will not forget me if I am so lucky to merit to be saved.
Remember those in purgatory ARE saved, final stop Heaven.

–

 

[Heart_Foam]

What part of that rises beyond mere assertion that what Rome says is true because Rome says so?

This whole system rests on the assumption God, who is perfectly holy and just, will not judge people according to what we, individually, deserve. Which is death. The wages of all sin is death. Will God not repay everyone according to what they have done? (Proverbs 24:12) Or will God judge you according to what others have done? Catholic soteriology undermines the principle that God is just.

 

[Memaw]

My Protestant grandfather was earlier talking about how it’s useless to pray for the dead because their condition (Heaven or Hell) is eternal and can’t be changed.

How should I answer him?

He doesn’t believe in Purgatory and he wouldn’t say that if he were there!!. I always pray for those who have no one to pray for them, mainly those who don’t believe in praying for their dead loved ones. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Well, did the dead person accept Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross as payment for his sins, or not? How will praying change that? He/she will be judged on his own faith, not the faith of others. Otherwise, God is not fair.

If praying for the dead has any bearing on salvation or time spent in purgatory, then some dead people are just lucky in that more people back on earth are praying for them than others. They’ll get out sooner, and through no merit of their own.

One MUST repent of ALL sin, before dying. Purgatory does NOT forgive sin. It gives us the chance to atone for the sins we have already repented of before death. The Catholic Church has always taught it from the beginning, (2,000 years). The term “Rest in Peace,” is actually a prayer for the dead. We’re praying that the person will “rest” in God’s Peace. It is a longing in the hearts of all of us to “pray” for our dead. In the Obituaries, many people place adds to their loved ones saying , Johnny, you have been gone for 5 years and we love you and miss you every day. or something similar. Can Johnny read it??? Most of the time it’'s like they are talking to that person. They may not believe in Purgatory but they pay good money for those adds, hoping to communicate with their loved one. Well the Catholic Church believes we can communicate with them thru prayer, which is God’s way of doing it and it’s free. And it is Biblical. God bless, Memaw

 

[Misplaced_Book]

SINCE we don’t know whether those departed will end up in Heaven or Hell, there is always the hope that they will be saved, and asking for God’s mercy for their Soul is a laudable and necessary thing to do.

 

[Randy_Carson]

What part of that rises beyond mere assertion that what Rome says is true because Rome says so?

This whole system rests on the assumption God, who is perfectly holy and just, will not judge people according to what we, individually, deserve. Which is death. The wages of all sin is death. Will God not repay everyone according to what they have done? (Proverbs 24:12) Or will God judge you according to what others have done? Catholic soteriology undermines the principle that God is just.

You seem to have a misunderstanding about purgatory and the treasury of merit.

Purgatory and the Treasury of Merits Explained

At death, we are judged by God, and there are only two options: heaven or hell. If you are bound for hell, then that’s pretty much the end of the story. If you are going to heaven, then there are two possibilities: either A) you are going straight to heaven because you are completely without stain or blemish at the moment of your death, or B) you need to take a shower and put on some clean clothes before going to the ball.

Purgatory is the place (or state) in which the cleansing of the temporal effects of sin is accomplished by God. We do nothing here. Remember, the ETERNAL effects of sin are ALREADY dealt with by Jesus’ death and resurrection…only the temporal effects still remain to be cleansed in Purgatory.

Here’s an example from scripture that will relieve your fears:

When David sinned with Bathsheba, a child was conceived. The eternal effect of David’s sin was forgiven by God; the prophet Nathan declared that God had forgiven David. However, the temporal effect of David’s sin remained; the child died despite David’s prayer and fasting for the child.

Here’s an example from real life:

A child breaks a neighbor’s window while playing baseball. The neighbor forgives the child (addressing the eternal effect of the transgression), and the relationship with the neighbor is restored by the child’s repentance. However, the child still has to mow grass to earn the money to pay for the window (addressing the temporal effect of the transgression).

One more thing to blow your mind:

The other kids who were playing can also contribute to the kitty to pay for the window. Similarly, the Church can assist those in Purgatory by applying what is known as the “treasury of merits” to that person’s debt. Since we can do nothing satisfying to God apart from Christ, all of the merits of the saints are, in effect, Christ’s own merits, so we’re not “earning our way into heaven”…we’re simply moving a few “dollars” from one account to another through Him who is able to accomplish all.

 

[Randy_Carson]

What part of that rises beyond mere assertion that what Rome says is true because Rome says so?

What part of your denial rests solely on the basis that YOU say so?

I’ll stick with the Church Jesus promised to build upon Peter the Rock.

 

[ffg]

What part of that rises beyond mere assertion that what Rome says is true because Rome says so?

This whole system rests on the assumption God, who is perfectly holy and just, will not judge people according to what we, individually, deserve. Which is death. The wages of all sin is death. Will God not repay everyone according to what they have done? (Proverbs 24:12) Or will God judge you according to what others have done? Catholic soteriology undermines the principle that God is just.

I certainly don’t want God to be just with me.

Considering I am human, so by default a sinner.

Mercy please.

No human who prays the Our Father wants justice either since in the prayer, we ask for forgiveness.

The catch? Forgive other humans (sinners) yourself, or don’t expect forgiveness from God.

 

[Goya]

…

"Time" is a tricky thing to apply to God.

That’s the bottom line. In fact, I’d take it a step further, and say ‘time’ can NOT be ‘applied to God.’ God is beyond time. God is not bound at all, by time, or any other human restraints.

Any attempt to limit God, is not only anthropomorphism–it is essentially blasphemy. It is depriving the Lord of what is exclusively His domain–which includes complete, and absolute dominion over every singular aspect of our existence.

Our Faith demands that we acknowledge and respect, in fact maintain and champion, the Lord’s omnipotence, without reservation.

 

[R_C]

SINCE we don’t know whether those departed will end up in Heaven or Hell, there is always the hope that they will be saved, and asking for God’s mercy for their Soul is a laudable and necessary thing to do.

See? Even from the mere perspective of prudence, that is, without having to wrestle with dogma, we can conclude that it is good to pray for the souls of the departed.

That being said, we must remember that Purgatory it is fully scriptural. As Christians, we are called to follow the faith of Christ, for that faith alone brings salvation, and Christ clearly taught about Purgatory, personally and through the apostles, just as the Holy Spirit had done in the Old Testament through the prophets.

 

[Goya]

My Protestant grandfather was earlier talking about how it’s useless to pray for the dead because their condition (Heaven or Hell) is eternal and can’t be changed.

How should I answer him?

@ the OP:

Following up on my post to David… tell your grandfather that he oughtn’t concern himself with what he THINKS the Lord can not do. The Lord has given us ‘laws’ and scripture, and guidance, for how we should (even must) govern ourselves.

Those laws do not bind the Lord.

If the Lord is omnipotent, and if the Lord’s mercy is infinite (as all Christians hold to be true)–then it inevitably follows that the Lord could, according to His own will, save whom He pleases–even one who is presumably, ‘unsaved’.

You pray. Pray passionately, sincerely, reverently, unceasingly, in charity, and above all, pray that the Lord’s Will be done. Your petitions (as everyone’s) are governed by the Lord’s Will–not by what you or your grandfather thinks His Will is.

My grandfather was a 33rd degree free-mason. He was not a Christian. He died 30-some years ago.

I pray for his soul. I pray for his salvation. I pray for this, according to the Lord’s infinite mercy, His omnipotence, and His Will.

Many who read this may pretend to know that based upon what I have disclosed here, that my grandfather is ‘rotting in Hell.’ Imo, such a conclusion not only would be presumptuous, but even offensive to the Lord, in that it would pretend to deny the Lord’s omnipotence and infinite mercy, and further pretend to know what is only known and knowable, to the Lord.

This is why we pray for the ‘faithful departed’, and why we pray for ‘all souls’–e.g.–in the Fatima prayer which we recite in the Rosary, we pray "O My Jesus, Forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven. Especially those most in need of thy mercy."

Incidentally, we will be celebrating and observing ‘All Soul’s Day’, tomorrow–Nov. 2, on the Liturgical Calendar–though that is limited in application to the ‘faithful departed’.

 

[R_C]

I certainly don’t want God to be just with me.

Considering I am human, so by default a sinner.

Mercy please.

No human who prays the Our Father wants justice either since in the prayer, we ask for forgiveness.

The catch? Forgive other humans (sinners) yourself, or don’t expect forgiveness from God.

“Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done. Forgive us as we forgive others.” Re-read what the Fathers and the Catechism have to say on this. This is the call for the supreme justice of God. “The catch” is Divine Justice.

We long for the justice of God, because only in Him there is justice.

Re-read the greatest praise of God’s justice ever spoken, the Sermon of the Mount on Luke 6:17, 20-26. Some are blessed who now seem under a curse, while others who seem blessed will one day be subject to sorrows. This is divine justice. Some who are first will be last, some who are last will be first.

Mercy is the possibility of redemption in Christ. The possibility of forgiveness. “In justice He condemned us, in mercy He redeemed us.” There would be no mercy without justice. In fact, there could be no mercy without justice.

Thus first came the Law, then came the Spirit and its grace, which fulfills the Law.

If there was no need for justice, Christ would not have had to bear the punishments of God’s wrath upon Himself in a most sorrowful Passion culminating with death on the Cross. He would have simply traced a sign of blessing over all as He ascended into heaven, saying: “behold, you are forgiven”. But instead, in justice, He had to suffer. And so do we. In this life and in the next. This is temporal punishment, of which Scripture speaks and of which the Church graciously gives us means to amend through penance and indulgences.

This is one of the dangers latent in the rejection of the wisdom of the teachers: we rely on our self-interpretations, and thus become in our mind our own Doctors of the Church, our own Apostles, our own Theologians, and in doing so, sometimes we misunderstand Scripture and Tradition. If instead we relied more on what the saints had to say, and on what the Church taught (which is what the saints did), then we would be safe from so great distress.

That being said, Christ will supply what is lacking, if we are humble enough.

 

[Goya]

btw, while you’re engaged in these discussions with your grandfather, why don’t you ask him this question:

If all believers are members of the Body of Christ…and the ‘saints’, are believers who are now deceased (of this world/life), and according to his vernacular, ‘saved’, and therefore now in Heaven…

…did the saints cease being members of the Body of Christ, upon their death?

If he believes this to be the case, kindly ask him for the authority upon which he based this conclusion. I for one, would be interested in knowing the basis for such.

 

[happy2be]

short answer to the question “is praying for the dead useless?”
Yes.

Praying for those who have died will not release them from purgatory.

Why?

Because purgatory does not exist.

Time would be better spent praying for those who still walk the earth and do not know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only name by which men/women can be saved.

 

[Memaw]

short answer to the question “is praying for the dead useless?”
Yes.

Praying for those who have died will not release them from purgatory.

Why?

Because purgatory does not exist.

Time would be better spent praying for those who still walk the earth and do not know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only name by which men/women can be saved.

Why can’t we pray for both? Are our prayers limited? What do you think the prayer, “Rest in Peace” means if not a prayer for the dead? That prayer has been around for 2.000 years. God bless, Memaw

 

[rfournier103]

Well, did the dead person accept Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross as payment for his sins, or not? How will praying change that? He/she will be judged on his own faith, not the faith of others. Otherwise, God is not fair.

If praying for the dead has any bearing on salvation or time spent in purgatory, then some dead people are just lucky in that more people back on earth are praying for them than others. They’ll get out sooner, and through no merit of their own.

Let’s say that I accept Jesus’s Sacrrifice as FULL AND COMPLETE payment for my sins, does that mean I can sin as much as I please in this life with the supreme confidence that Heaven shall be my reward?

I have a strong faith in God and Jesus, so I do not need to do anything at all to merit eternal life?

Let me ask you this… are REDEMPTION and SALVATION the same thing? If not, how are they different?

I look forward to your reply.

 

[rfournier103]

short answer to the question “is praying for the dead useless?”
Yes.

Praying for those who have died will not release them from purgatory.

Why?

Because purgatory does not exist.

Time would be better spent praying for those who still walk the earth and do not know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the only name by which men/women can be saved.

Sorry to burst your bubble but…

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

(Thanks to www.johnsalza.com)