Praying for the Dead Proved from Scripture

[Non_Serviam]

I was mistaken. I apologize.

My understanding was that when catholics prayed for the dead, they expected them to remain dead. I see from several recent posters that catholics are actually asking God to bring their dead loved ones back to life. I’ve always acknowledged the reality of that sort of prayer for the dead as there are several examples in the Bible.

starts calculating

Jesus plus 12 Apostles plus Paul is 14 with 4 resurrections over 3 years of Jesus’ ministry and 30 years of apostolic ministry gives us 1 resurrection every 8 or so years.

The USCCB has 272 active bishops, divided by 14 is roughly 19, so since 1980, US catholics should have a list of 76 people who were raised from the dead by their bishops’ prayers. And like Lazarus, 25% of them should have been dead several days.

Since I’m feeling generous, I’ll only ask for 50 names of people in the US legally declared dead who have been raised from the dead by catholic prayers for the dead since 1980. With those names and a bit of research I will gladly confess the error of my ways on this topic.

If such a list of names is not forthcoming, perhaps those catholics who claimed their prayers for the dead were proved by referring to these resurrection examples will deign to explain why their bishops, the successors of the Apostles, can’t deliver the goods like the Apostles did. After all, you shall do greater things…

or perhaps they’ll apologize for the use of a cheap debating tactic and admit that their prayers for the dead are nothing like the resurrection examples.

 

[Non_Serviam]

I decided to weigh in on this because I think the way I look at it just different “enough” to add to the conversation. In short, I don’t see the problem if Paul was praying for his dead friend, or remembering him to God. Apparently many of my fellow protestants would be… really upset about it, but why?

One reason; they think somehow it directly supports the idea of Purgatory, or that it even may let the Catholic get their foot in the door about Purgatory p). I’ve said it a lot; we can’t let fear of one doctrine, teaching, or dogma influence our reaction to related doctrine that there is room to see in scripture. Perhaps I’m naive, or letting my own experiences get in the way, but what is so horrible about praying for the dead, commending them to God, and trying to butter the bread a bit? lol

I don’t think praying for a loved one to be remembered well and to receive the mercy of God is a sin. As was well stated earlier in the thread, we all (I believe) see that at some point we stand before God as believers, and our works are indeed tried. If my loved one is going before a judge down here on earth, of course I’m going to pray for them… And here’s the thing; it doesn’t always have to do with thinking we are going to radically change something, but we love our friends and family and wish to remember them to God in kindness and declare those things about our departed that we cherish. Prayer has an effect on the one who is praying, and that is especially true when someone we love has died. Even asking God to hold that person and show them love is praying for the dead…

Sure God already knows all things about our loved ones, but that is true of all the things we ask for. Prayer is about relationship, it is a way to show love, and prayer is powerful.

I don’t think it’s fair to characterize the responses of steido01 or myself as being really upset. My previous post shows “really upset” at the shoddy behaviour we’ve been subjected to of late. We’ve simply said that if you ask us whether the example given in Timothy is “praying for the dead” that it depends on what you mean by the phrase. Most of what you’ve suggested here is in line with what I had suggested in my first post.

If saying we’re unconvinced by an argument is inappropriate for a believer, then we need to tell Peter and Paul, as they certainly disputed matters of belief.

We’ve said their interpretation may be possible, but the evidence doesn’t conclusively demonstrate it, so we’d like more. In return, we’re told that a reasonable doubt is a “problem” that could be solved by unquestioning obedience to catholic teaching and mocked by an appeal to examples that bear no resemblance to current catholic practice.

If you’re going to criticize, please try to capture what we’ve said as accurately as possible, and you may find that it isn’t as objectionable as a first read might have suggested.

Thanks.

 

[Peter_J]

I was mistaken. I apologize.

My understanding was that when catholics prayed for the dead, they expected them to remain dead.

Well that was silly of you wasn’t it. shaw:

(But seriously, I guess your post is a commentary on things that I didn’t read, but which sound interesting. )

 

[Non_Serviam]

Well that was silly of you wasn’t it. shaw:

(But seriously, I guess your post is a commentary on things that I didn’t read, but which sound interesting. )

Very convenient, how those quotes of yours snip at just the right place to avoid having to answer questions.

If posters are going to cite a number of biblical resurrection examples as proof of their practice of “praying for the dead” it’s quite reasonable to request evidence of similar results.

 

[Peter_J]

Very convenient, how those quotes of yours snip at just the right place to avoid having to answer questions.

If posters are going to cite a number of biblical resurrection examples as proof of their practice of “praying for the dead” it’s quite reasonable to request evidence of similar results.

Fair enough. I’ll let those posters (whoever they may be, I haven’t read every single post on this thread, much less catholic.com as a whole) speak for themselves.

 

[rcwitness]

I don’t think it’s fair to characterize the responses of steido01 or myself as being really upset. My previous post shows “really upset” at the shoddy behaviour we’ve been subjected to of late. We’ve simply said that if you ask us whether the example given in Timothy is “praying for the dead” that it depends on what you mean by the phrase. Most of what you’ve suggested here is in line with what I had suggested in my first post.

If saying we’re unconvinced by an argument is inappropriate for a believer, then we need to tell Peter and Paul, as they certainly disputed matters of belief.

We’ve said their interpretation may be possible, but the evidence doesn’t conclusively demonstrate it, so we’d like more. In return, we’re told that a reasonable doubt is a “problem” that could be solved by unquestioning obedience to catholic teaching and mocked by an appeal to examples that bear no resemblance to current catholic practice.

If you’re going to criticize, please try to capture what we’ve said as accurately as possible, and you may find that it isn’t as objectionable as a first read might have suggested.

Thanks.

I personally never mentioned anything about bringing loved ones back to this life. My posts have pointed to the relationship of prayers for the dead and Purgatory. Our prayers for the dead cannot prevent someone from being damned. The example used of Peter praying for Tabitha, is relavent only because she was dead and Peter prayed for her. God granted mercy on her and gave her life. It happened to be a restored life in this world which is different, but not necessarily exclussive, of a release from Purgatory.

 

[Kliska]

I don’t think it’s fair to characterize the responses of steido01 or myself as being really upset.

If you’re going to criticize, please try to capture what we’ve said as accurately as possible, and you may find that it isn’t as objectionable as a first read might have suggested.

I wasn’t referring to my fellow protestants in this thread, but out in the world, and online. As others, I tend to quote specific posters if I’m replying to (or against ) them. Most here acknowledge and understand protestant viewpoints vary widely depending on the protestant. Members are familiar with me ‘round these parts, and I don’t think they took my words as an attack against you or steid’ in particular, but rather a formulation of a different perspective on “prayer for the dead” that doesn’t violate Roman Catholic viewpoints or even protestant viewpoints as I understand them.

 

[Lion_IRC]

I was mistaken. I apologize.

No need to apologize for being mistaken.
Sarcasm on the other hand…

…My understanding was that when catholics prayed for the dead, they expected them to remain dead.

Eternal life is not “…remain dead”

…I see from several recent posters that catholics are actually asking God to bring their dead loved ones back to life.

Why do you judge everyone - all Catholics - by the comments of the few “recent posts”?
That’s prejudice!

… I’ve always acknowledged the reality of that sort of prayer for the dead as there are several examples in the Bible. starts calculating

Do you think prayers for and about the dead all have to conform to a template?

…[sub]Jesus plus 12 Apostles plus Paul is 14 with 4 resurrections over 3 years of Jesus’ ministry and 30 years of apostolic ministry gives us 1 resurrection every 8 or so years

The USCCB has 272 active bishops, divided by 14 is roughly 19, so since 1980, US catholics should have a list of 76 people who were raised from the dead by their bishops’ prayers. And like Lazarus, 25% of them should have been dead several days.

Since I’m feeling generous, I’ll only ask for 50 names of people in the US legally declared dead who have been raised from the dead by catholic prayers for the dead since 1980. [/sub]

…With those names and a bit of research I will gladly confess the error of my ways on this topic.

Your error is in sticking your nose into the private prayer conversation between another human being and their Gracious personal Creator God - The Lord of the cosmos - who hears ALL prayers in compassion and love.

If such a list of names is not forthcoming…

You’ll what? Stamp your feet?

…perhaps those catholics who claimed their prayers for the dead were proved…

Proved? What makes you think your demands for proof matter to me?
Not only do I not need to ‘prove’ my God-given, invitational right to commune with Him, I find your intrusion kind of blasphemous and pharisaic.

…perhaps they’ll apologize for the use of a cheap debating tactic and admit that their prayers for the dead are nothing like the resurrection examples.

You think the heart-felt views of people about holy scripture and prayer and the dear departed are a “cheap debating tactic”? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AND STUDYING THE WORD OF GOD

 

[Randy_Carson]

I was mistaken. I apologize.

My understanding was that when catholics prayed for the dead, they expected them to remain dead.

Usually. But not always.

 

[rcwitness]

Usually. But not always.

Other than prayers to bring someone back to life in this world, can we divorce prayers for the dead and belief in Purgatory?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I was mistaken. I apologize.

My understanding was that when catholics prayed for the dead, they expected them to remain dead. I see from several recent posters that catholics are actually asking God to bring their dead loved ones back to life. I’ve always acknowledged the reality of that sort of prayer for the dead as there are several examples in the Bible.

starts calculating

Jesus plus 12 Apostles plus Paul is 14 with 4 resurrections over 3 years of Jesus’ ministry and 30 years of apostolic ministry gives us 1 resurrection every 8 or so years.

The USCCB has 272 active bishops, divided by 14 is roughly 19, so since 1980, US catholics should have a list of 76 people who were raised from the dead by their bishops’ prayers. And like Lazarus, 25% of them should have been dead several days.

Since I’m feeling generous, I’ll only ask for 50 names of people in the US legally declared dead who have been raised from the dead by catholic prayers for the dead since 1980. With those names and a bit of research I will gladly confess the error of my ways on this topic.

If such a list of names is not forthcoming, perhaps those catholics who claimed their prayers for the dead were proved by referring to these resurrection examples will deign to explain why their bishops, the successors of the Apostles, can’t deliver the goods like the Apostles did. After all, you shall do greater things…

or perhaps they’ll apologize for the use of a cheap debating tactic and admit that their prayers for the dead are nothing like the resurrection examples.

It is unfortunate that this topic has evoked such a snarky response from you. When folks start posting with this kind of tone, it usually means they have stopped listening. :sad_yes:

Jesus, Peter and Paul all prayed on behalf of those who had died. Some, like Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter, for example, were actually raised from the dead as a result of these prayers. Others, like Onesiphorous, were not raised in *this *life, but we hope that he was aided in the next - which is *far *more important.

Either way, intercessions for the dead *are *proved from the examples found in scripture.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[rcwitness]

It is unfortunate that this topic has evoked such a snarky response from you. When folks start posting with this kind of tone, it usually means they have stopped listening. :sad_yes:

Jesus, Peter and Paul all prayed on behalf of those who had died. Some, like Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter, for example, were actually raised from the dead as a result of these prayers. Others, like Onesiphorous, were not raised in *this *life, but we hope that he was aided in the next - which is *far *more important.

Either way, intercessions for the dead *are *proved from the examples found in scripture.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Sorry Non Servium for my reply to your earlier post. I used the wrong post from you, but inteded to reply to the one Randy quoted.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Other than prayers to bring someone back to life in this world, can we divorce prayers for the dead and belief in Purgatory?

We do. So do the Orthodox.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We do.

Yes, I saw that from several Lutheran blogs that I Googled.

I’m increasingly optimistic about the possibility of Lutherans returning to the Church someday. With that in mind, I started a thread for Lutherans explaining why the Pope is Jesus’ Royal Steward.

 

[wmscott]

Might just be me, but I think that wmscott was hinting at prayer for the saints, i.e. those who had passed on.

As to the subject at hand, we must keep this in the light of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 in which Paul writes that:

1. After death,
2. On the day of judgment
3. Before the seat of Christ,
4. One’s work (NOT faith!) is tested.
5. During that test, one’s work may burn up, not being of gold or even silver.
6. Yet, even if it does burn up, that person is still saved!
7. But saved only as though passing through fire.

And, since neither life nor death can sever us from the love of God (Romans 8:38), prayers offered for those being “saved, but only as through fire” would certainly seem appropriate. They remain members of the Body of Christ, and no part of Christ’s Body is dead to the Father (ref. Mt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, Lk. 20:38).

Correct assessment, I was hoping to bolster Randy’s case that praying for the dead or intercessory prayer is Biblical and was adding one other reference for him. I am not sure if it was off topic or out of context. Thanks

 

[thenobes]

Originally Posted by Per Crucem
We do.

Wait a minute here!

Are you saying you agree with per Crucem in his wanting to divorce prayers for the dead from Purgatory??

Wouldn’t prayers for the dead go hand in hand with purgatory… or am I missing something here???

peace
steve

 

[Randy_Carson]

Wait a minute here!

Are you saying you agree with per Crucem in his wanting to divorce prayers for the dead from Purgatory??

Wouldn’t prayers for the dead go hand in hand with purgatory… or am I missing something here???

peace
steve

Sorry for the confusion…I was unclear.

As a Catholic, I wouldn’t separate the two, and I wouldn’t support the Lutheran approach in that regard.

What I do wish to applaud is the idea that the Lutherans pray for the dead at all…something that brings them a step closer to us than other Protestants who reject the idea of the treasury of merits, etc.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Are you saying you agree with per Crucem in his wanting to divorce prayers for the dead from Purgatory??

Wouldn’t prayers for the dead go hand in hand with purgatory… or am I missing something here???

peace
steve

No, they wouldn’t. While it would be wrong for a Catholic to separate prayers for the dead and purgatory, that wouldn’t hold true for churches that do not accept the Latin definition of purgatory but who also pray for the dead. Again, that would be Lutherans and, on a wider scale, the Orthodox.

 

[rcwitness]

No, they wouldn’t. While it would be wrong for a Catholic to separate prayers for the dead and purgatory, that wouldn’t hold true for churches that do not accept the Latin definition of purgatory but who also pray for the dead. Again, that would be Lutherans and, on a wider scale, the Orthodox.

Do “Lutherans” have a definition of Purgatory? Do all Lutherans believe one definition? How do prayers for the dead relate to the Lutheran definition of Purgatory?

 

[po18guy]

One thing that is good to keep in mind is that God is outside of time. Time applies only to creation - our probationary period, if you will. Our beloved family member who died years ago is standing before God RIGHT NOW. God can grant His mercy or administer His justice as He sees fit. Since all of this is occurring before God RIGHT NOW, our prayers RIGHT NOW are same as prayers at any other time.

Once it became bible-based, Christianity lost much of its supernatural inclination and became very human-centered.