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tobinatorstark
Guest
[/quote]
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dmussaw
Guest
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tobinatorstark
Guest
I believe we are all called to instruct others about Christ and I leading others down the wrong path hinders that which we are to in God’s name. Just out of curiosity what are your your beliefs??
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Matariel
Guest
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dmussaw
Guest
Can you give me the book…chapter…verse please of the doctorine?
Peace and blessings
Peace and blessings
B
Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**There are no dead! They are all very much alive in the hemisphere of God – no matter if in heaven or purgatory.
On the cross Jesus said to the crucified on His right: Yet today you will be at my fathers.
Jesus did not say in some eternities you will be there, but He said TODAY.
But dead – no!
Jesus after his death and before His resurrection, went to hell to tear out of the claws of hell a those, who until Gods salvation where not able to get into heaven or purgatory.
What to pray for those who went before us?
It’s not so important what we pray, as to that we pray at all. And when we meet Jesus, let’s talk in our own language to Jesus, for He knows what we want, before we say so anyhow.
**
On the cross Jesus said to the crucified on His right: Yet today you will be at my fathers.
Jesus did not say in some eternities you will be there, but He said TODAY.
But dead – no!
Jesus after his death and before His resurrection, went to hell to tear out of the claws of hell a those, who until Gods salvation where not able to get into heaven or purgatory.
What to pray for those who went before us?
It’s not so important what we pray, as to that we pray at all. And when we meet Jesus, let’s talk in our own language to Jesus, for He knows what we want, before we say so anyhow.
**
E
ERH
Guest
Praying TO the dead is controversial in some circles.
But I have never heard a criticism of praying FOR the dead, except that some feel that it is a waste of time because it’s too late for our prayers to have any effect; I am not aware of any Scriptural prohibition.
Is it a waste of time? God is not bound by time. If I pray today for a man who has died, at the time of his death God already knew that I would be praying for him – in fact, He knew from the foundation of the world. So God can choose to answer those prayers, even though we see them as occuring after death.
Another question is, When is he “dead”? Lazarus had been “dead” for 4 days, and his sisters assumed that his body was decaying, but he came back to life. It is not clear in some other resurrection accounts how long the person had been dead. So who are we to say that someone is beyond hope?
After death comes the judgment, but when is death, and how long after is the judgment? Maybe the question itself is meaningless. Someone once compared the divine perspective to a can of movie film. You and I are living in the film, but God can reach into the roll of film, pull out a piece, and edit or splice it any way He wants.
But I have never heard a criticism of praying FOR the dead, except that some feel that it is a waste of time because it’s too late for our prayers to have any effect; I am not aware of any Scriptural prohibition.
Is it a waste of time? God is not bound by time. If I pray today for a man who has died, at the time of his death God already knew that I would be praying for him – in fact, He knew from the foundation of the world. So God can choose to answer those prayers, even though we see them as occuring after death.
Another question is, When is he “dead”? Lazarus had been “dead” for 4 days, and his sisters assumed that his body was decaying, but he came back to life. It is not clear in some other resurrection accounts how long the person had been dead. So who are we to say that someone is beyond hope?
After death comes the judgment, but when is death, and how long after is the judgment? Maybe the question itself is meaningless. Someone once compared the divine perspective to a can of movie film. You and I are living in the film, but God can reach into the roll of film, pull out a piece, and edit or splice it any way He wants.
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ppasa316
Guest
Well said
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tobinatorstark
Guest
but we are talking about praying for the dead and not to the dead. Please keep on topic
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Agui
Guest
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Ben_Masada
Guest
There is no use praying for the dead. It’s written that even the memory of them must be forgotten. Read Ecclesiastes 9:5-10.
Ben:
C
Canto
Guest
Praying to God for a loved one in purgatory does not involve a person consulting with the dead.
You could say that about anything. Why talk to a sinful friend about a problem you might have when you can just go straight to God and talk to Him.
Who are we to know the wonders of heaven. Wasn’t it Michael who booted Satan out of heaven. And Gabriel who announced the Messianic joy to Mary. God likes to share. The Saints in heaven are alive for God is a God of the living, in heaven we have life everlasting, i.e. we are alive not dead.
Matt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world. The angels shall go out, and shall separate the wicked from among the just.
Matt 18:10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
*adapted from * **scripturecatholic.com/saints.html **
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.
1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:
Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.
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Canto
Guest
continued
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith. Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith. Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
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Canto
Guest
ask for more
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn’t Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon’s intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn’t Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon’s intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
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Canto
Guest
Isn’t this a reference to those in hell and not purgatory or heaven?
There is no use praying for the dead. It’s written that even the memory of them must be forgotten. Read Ecclesiastes 9:5-10.
Ben:
3 This is a very great evil among all things that are done under the sun, that the same things happen to all men: whereby also the hearts of the children of men are filled with evil, and with contempt while they live, and afterwards they shall be brought down to hell.
4 ¶ There is no man that liveth always, or that hopeth for this: a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished, neither have they any part in this world, and in the work that is done under the sun.
7 Go then, and eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with gladness: because thy works please God.
8 At all times let thy garments be white, and let not oil depart from thy head.
10 Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening.
12 Man knoweth not his own end: but as fishes are taken with the hook, and as birds are caught with the snare, so men are taken in the evil time, when it shall suddenly come upon them.
17 The words of the wise are heard in silence, more than the cry of a prince among fools.
18 Better is wisdom, than weapons of war: and he that shall offend in one, shall lose many good things.
10:1 Dying flies spoil the sweetness of the ointment. Wisdom and glory is more precious than a small and shortlived folly.
B
Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**
Oh boy
why then do we all just give up and commit suicide 
What’s the use then to go on living?Did it ever occur to you, that this was long before Jesus Christs salvation of us?
Let’s be serious. Do you really think you’ll be dead after you die, even though Jesus Christ told us, that there is do death, for who believes in God will live, even when he dies - Joh 11,25**
J
jfreak64
Guest
If we are to pray for a dead person that was good, but not good enough to get into heaven, what does that say about the work that JESUS done on the cross. When JESUS said it is finished did he not mean that it was really finished. That the sin debt had been paid in full. That there was no other sacrifice or atonement that was needed or that would be needed for the covering of a person’s sins.
If we could pray someone from purgatory into heaven then wouldn’t that make it a gospel of works. Therefore relying on what a person could do for us and not what CHRIST had already appropriated.
Either we are cleansed from our sins upon confession or we are not! 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The spirits in prison is people who had died before the resurrection of CHRIST, such as the beggar in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. There was upper hades and lower hades. They were separated by a great gulf. When JESUS descended into the lower parts of the earth, he took the keys of death and hell from the evil one, and preached/explained the good news of the gospel to those people who had died in faith. He then took captivity captive (Ephesians 4:8) and then hell enlarged herself
( Isaiah 5:14). None could cross the gulf, then when JESUS crossed the gulf and took home those who died in faith, lower hades took over all of hades.
If we could pray someone from purgatory into heaven then wouldn’t that make it a gospel of works. Therefore relying on what a person could do for us and not what CHRIST had already appropriated.
Either we are cleansed from our sins upon confession or we are not! 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The spirits in prison is people who had died before the resurrection of CHRIST, such as the beggar in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. There was upper hades and lower hades. They were separated by a great gulf. When JESUS descended into the lower parts of the earth, he took the keys of death and hell from the evil one, and preached/explained the good news of the gospel to those people who had died in faith. He then took captivity captive (Ephesians 4:8) and then hell enlarged herself
( Isaiah 5:14). None could cross the gulf, then when JESUS crossed the gulf and took home those who died in faith, lower hades took over all of hades.
S
Shin
Guest
The Ecclesiastes reference is particularly ironically wrong in that it is not a commandment but a simple heartfelt expression of how life generally is vain and that everything under the sun passes away. To misunderstand what the author is saying about that is the true epitome of cut and paste scripture.
Sigh!
When people try to force scripture to fit, it’s like watching a child try to fit a square peg into a round hole, and bang away at it, bang bang bang…
Sigh!
When people try to force scripture to fit, it’s like watching a child try to fit a square peg into a round hole, and bang away at it, bang bang bang…
C
Canto
Guest
It means that they have not fully given themselves over to Christ if they had chosen to sin even if the sin be not mortal.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 12:14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God: 15. Looking diligently lest any man be wanting to the grace of God: lest any root of bitterness springing up do hinder, and by it may be polluted.
Revelation 2:19. I know thy works and faith, and thy charity, and ministry, and thy patience and thy last works more then the former.
Matthew 24: 12. And because iniquity shall abound: the charity of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Our faith must have good works, they go together, they are not seperate. Under the old covenant many would do works of the law as if God owed them whereas their faith was lacking. The devils believe says St James, and tremble. They treble as they have no good works.
From Romans to Hebrews Paul bangs on about the importance of doing good works, faith working through charity, and our Christian armour being both faith and charity. In 1 Cor 13 Paul actually says that charity is greater than faith and that if we have all faith but not charity we are nothing. James notes that works perfected Abrahams faith. Our faith he says is dead without works.
James 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
Christ calls us to do good works. Scripture talks about being dooers and not just hearers. Titus 2:13 "God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, 14. **Who gave himself for us, **that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and **might cleanse to himself **a people acceptable, a pursuer of good works. 15. These things speak, and exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no man contemn thee."
Titus 3:7. That being** justified by his grace**, we may be heirs according to hope of life everlasting. 8. It is a faithful saying, and of these things I will have thee avouch earnestly: **that they which believe in God, be careful to excel in good **works. These things be good and profitable for men.
The Gospels, St Paul and Revelation all note that God renders us according to our works. St Peter says 2 Peter 1:10) “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.”
1 Timothy 4:12 be an example of the faithful, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith in charity.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth aught, not prepuce: but faith that worketh by charity. 7. You ran well, who hath hindered you not to obey the truth?
From memory the just were in the lower part of hell and then Jesus took them to heaven.
Purgatroy is for those not deserving of hell but not yet heaven. Here they are purged/cleansed of their sins so that they may enter heaven with Christ as nothing undefiled will enter heaven as revelation notes…
Revlation 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.
Revelation 2:3 But **I have against thee a few things, because thou hast left thy first charity. **5. Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. But if not: I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of his place, unless thou do penance.
2 Corinthians 6:1 And we helping do exhort, that you receive not the grace of God in vain.
1 John 2:29. If you know that he is just, know ye that every one also which doeth justice, is born of
him.
Ephesians 3:17 Christ to dwell by faith in your hearts, rooted and founded in charity,
Ephesians 4:15 15. But doing the truth in charity
Ephesians 6:23 charity with faith from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Philemon 1: 4. I give thanks to my God, always making a memory of thee in my prayers, 5. Heaving thy charity and faith which thou hast in our Lord Jesus, and toward all the saints: 6. That the communication of thy** faith may be made evident in the agnition of all good that is in you in Jesus Christ. **7. For I have had great joy and consolation in thy charity, because the bowels of the saints have rested by thee brother:
Rom:2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified.
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