Praying for the dead

[ppasa316]

It means that they have not fully given themselves over to Christ if they had chosen to sin even if the sin be not mortal.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 12:14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God: 15. Looking diligently lest any man be wanting to the grace of God: lest any root of bitterness springing up do hinder, and by it may be polluted.

Revelation 2:19. I know thy works and faith, and thy charity, and ministry, and thy patience and thy last works more then the former.

Matthew 24: 12. And because iniquity shall abound: the charity of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Our faith must have good works, they go together, they are not seperate. Under the old covenant many would do works of the law as if God owed them whereas their faith was lacking. The devils believe says St James, and tremble. They treble as they have no good works.

From Romans to Hebrews Paul bangs on about the importance of doing good works, faith working through charity, and our Christian armour being both faith and charity. In 1 Cor 13 Paul actually says that charity is greater than faith and that if we have all faith but not charity we are nothing. James notes that works perfected Abrahams faith. Our faith he says is dead without works.

James 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

Christ calls us to do good works. Scripture talks about being dooers and not just hearers. Titus 2:13 "God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, 14. **Who gave himself for us, **that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and **might cleanse to himself **a people acceptable, a pursuer of good works. 15. These things speak, and exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no man contemn thee."

Titus 3:7. That being** justified by his grace**, we may be heirs according to hope of life everlasting. 8. It is a faithful saying, and of these things I will have thee avouch earnestly: **that they which believe in God, be careful to excel in good **works. These things be good and profitable for men.

The Gospels, St Paul and Revelation all note that God renders us according to our works. St Peter says 2 Peter 1:10) “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.”

1 Timothy 4:12 be an example of the faithful, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith in charity.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth aught, not prepuce: but faith that worketh by charity. 7. You ran well, who hath hindered you not to obey the truth?

From memory the just were in the lower part of hell and then Jesus took them to heaven.

Purgatroy is for those not deserving of hell but not yet heaven. Here they are purged/cleansed of their sins so that they may enter heaven with Christ as nothing undefiled will enter heaven as revelation notes…

Revlation 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Revelation 2:3 But I have against thee a few things, because thou hast left thy first charity. 5. Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. But if not: I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of his place, unless thou do penance.

2 Corinthians 6:1 And we helping do exhort, that you receive not the grace of God in vain.

1 John 2:29. If you know that he is just, know ye that every one also which doeth justice, is born of
him.

Ephesians 3:17 Christ to dwell by faith in your hearts, rooted and founded in charity,

Ephesians 4:15 15. But doing the truth in charity

Ephesians 6:23 charity with faith from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philemon 1: 4. I give thanks to my God, always making a memory of thee in my prayers, 5. Heaving thy charity and faith which thou hast in our Lord Jesus, and toward all the saints: 6. That the communication of thy** faith may be made evident in the agnition of all good that is in you in Jesus Christ. **7. For I have had great joy and consolation in thy charity, because the bowels of the saints have rested by thee brother:

Rom:2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified.

No such thing as purgatory. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no amount of prayer that can get someone closer to heaven after they are gone. Either they were believers or they weren’t.

 

[Matariel]

No such thing as purgatory.

Sorry, but I trust the Bible and the Church over you. I guess you haven’t read I Corinthians where Purgatory is spoken of or realized that the early Christians prayed for their dead.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Um… don’t you know that Purgatory is in God’s purifying presence? His love consumes sin.

There is no amount of prayer that can get someone closer to heaven after they are gone. Either they were believers or they weren’t.

You’re supposed to offer counter-arguments and not little close-minded quips.

 

[tnystrom]

Can anyone give me verses that we are to pray for the dead besides Job 1:5 to refute Protestant accusations. BTW I do know it is also in our Deutrocanonical books such as Tobias and Machabees, but Protestants don’t really recognize those books.

What Protestant accusations? Praying for the dead in Purgatory? Jesus used the Deutrocanonical so that’s the Protestants problem.

 

[Canto]

Found this with my files, can’t find the source sorry

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." Matthew 12:32.

It would appear here that some sins can be forgiven in the next life - in purgatory

“Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.” Matthew 5:26

“There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.” Revelation 21:27.

So we must be perfect before we enter into heaven. If we are not perfect rather than just being tossed into hell we have purgatory to clenase us of our sins and make us fit for heaven to live with Him there.

“Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.

When the Apostle says “he shall be saved”, he excludes the fire of hell in which no one can be saved. By saying he shall be saved “as by fire” can only refer to a purgation as in Purgatory. It is evident from these verses that many who will gain possession of the Kingdom of God will pass through fire. This clearly is not hell fire, so it will therefore be the temporary fire of Purgatory.

But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Matthew 5:22.

Notice it is only the third sort of offense is punished with hell. What if one dies with other types of offenses mentioned? Clearly the judgment of God after this life consists of something other than hell. This is the belief of the Ancient Fathers.

“That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” Phillipians 2:10

“And no man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it” Revelation 5:3

“And every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth…” Revelation 5:13.

Where could these references to “under the earth” refer to other than Purgatory? They certainly do not refer to hell.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**What’s the use to just keep on queuing as endless as many verses of the bible without adding own conclusions and realizings?!

Nobody can explain the bible just by just piling up bags of Bible-Verses. People will be bored on it and withdraw.

If priests would do so, a sermon in church would be:
“Look at verse such and such, Amen”

Let’s finally keep in mind, that every single vers of the Holy Scripture, is worth a book of explanationes - so; you offer a huge library
**

 

[nycatholic]

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent—everywhere at once—and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand, does not possess this attribute. Also, God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent—all powerful (Revelation 19:6). Certainly this is an attribute a human being—dead or alive—does not possess. Finally, God is omniscient—He knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before we pray God knows our genuine needs, and knows them better then we do. Not only does He know my needs, but He answers my prayers according to His perfect will.

So in relation to the attributes of God, in order for a dead person to receive prayers the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence. This perfect essence includes what some theologians call “immanence.” Immanence is the doctrine that affirms God is directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15), which includes answering prayer.

Even after a person dies, God is still involved with that person and his destination. Hebrews 9:27 says so: “…man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” If a person dies in Christ, he goes to heaven to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-9, especially verse 8); if a person dies in his sin, he goes to hell, where eventually everyone in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

A person suffering in agony will not be able to hear or answer a prayer, nor will a person who is living in heavenly bliss with God. If we pray to someone and they are in eternal agony, should we expect them to be able to hear and answer our prayers? Likewise, a person in heaven has no concern for that which is on earth, so should I expect him to be concerned for my temporal problems? God has provided His Son, Jesus Christ, to be the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). Since Jesus Christ is the mediator between the two parties, we can go through Jesus to God. Since we can go through the Son of God, why would we want to go through a sinful dead individual, especially when doing so risks the wrath of God on us?

…we’re not praying TO the dead…we’re praying FOR the dead…

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

…we’re not praying TO the dead…we’re praying FOR the dead…

Of course not to, but for. But still; as we are praying for our beloved deceased, we in any case KNOW that they are not dead, but very lively - somewhere in Gods hemisphere, which might be heaven as well as purgatory - even though purgatory is not mentioned in th Holy Bible.
We KNOW directly from Jesus Christ who told us.

This thread however, is very much related to this one
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=309268&goto=newpost
“Are we dead after we died?”
**

 

[ppasa316]

Sorry, but I trust the Bible and the Church over you. I guess you haven’t read I Corinthians where Purgatory is spoken of or realized that the early Christians prayed for their dead.

Um… don’t you know that Purgatory is in God’s purifying presence? His love consumes sin.

You’re supposed to offer counter-arguments and not little close-minded quips.

You must be using a different bible than what i am using. NKJV This is no arguement or quip. Please give me the scripture that speaks of purgatory in I Cor. I must have missed it. Remember I Cor was written to those “who have been sanctified in Christ” 1:2, they needed no further purification to give them a right standing before God. The bible teaches that when Christ died on the cross he proclaimed, "It is finished Jn 19:30 speaking of the work of salvation. The bible speaks of death as the final moment of life after which one goes immediately to heaven or hell Heb 9:27, Lk 16:26, II Cor 5:8. To believe in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the Cross. Please respond your counter with scripture. Thanks
God Bless

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

There is no use praying for the dead. It’s written that even the memory of them must be forgotten. Read Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

Here we must know; Ecclesiastes, “the teacher” in it’s literary form, is a book of meditation and reflecting of a wise man of his time, though it’s precisely matching with our time too.

The verse in Ecclesiastes 9:5 “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.”
Tells us here the thinking and feeling of his time (as in ours) and not the belief of Kohelet – but in the end he opens logical consequences fully in the sense of the later Joh 11:25, for this only corresponds with the word of the Lord.

The verses before, like Ecc 9:5, is merely prearrangement for the later pointed out godly answers.

So here too – one can’t pick a passage without it’s context. Still valid is alone John 11:25 = Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies!

**

 

[banjo]

You must be using a different bible than what i am using. NKJV This is no arguement or quip. Please give me the scripture that speaks of purgatory in I Cor. I must have missed it. Remember I Cor was written to those “who have been sanctified in Christ” 1:2, they needed no further purification to give them a right standing before God. The bible teaches that when Christ died on the cross he proclaimed, "It is finished Jn 19:30 speaking of the work of salvation. The bible speaks of death as the final moment of life after which one goes immediately to heaven or hell Heb 9:27, Lk 16:26, II Cor 5:8. To believe in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the Cross. Please respond your counter with scripture. Thanks
God Bless

In 2008 there were literally thousands of post regarding “right standing” or justification and whether or not once gained it can be lost. It might be good for you to read through them using the search option. I don’t believe the NKJV contains 1 & 2 Maccabees so you would have to reference a Catholic edition to read 2 Mac 12:38-46 which mentions prayer for the dead. Mt 12:32 indicates that certain transgressions are forgiven not in this life but in the life to come and 1 Cor 3:15 can be seen as supporting this through a purgation by fire. Belief in Purgatory in no way undermines or detracts from Christ’s salvific act.

 

[mark_a]

No such thing as purgatory. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Please let us know the precise instant we are absent from the body.

 

[tobinatorstark]

What Protestant accusations? Praying for the dead in Purgatory? Jesus used the Deutrocanonical so that’s the Protestants problem.

What accusations??? What century are you living in buddy?? Protestants don’t believe in purgatory or praying for the dead. A lot of them claim we pray to the dead and not for the dead.

 

[ERH]

Where was Lazarus, the beloved friend of Jesus, for the 4 days before Jesus raised him from the dead? John 11:17-44
Where was the dead son – sinner or saint – of the widow of Zarephath before Elijah raised him from the dead? 1 Kings 17:21-22
– the dead son – sinner or saint – of the Shunammite woman before Elisha? 2 Kings 4:32-35
– Ezekiel’s dry-bones army? These bones are “the whole house of Israel” – surely not all saints! Ezekiel 37:1-14
– the dead daughter – sinner or saint – of Jairus before Jesus raised her? Mark 5:39-42
– the dead son – sinner or saint – of the widow of Nain before Jesus raised him? Luke 7:14-15
– the dead that Jesus commands us to raise? Matthew 10:7-8
– the dead disciple Tabitha – described as a saint – before Peter raised her? Acts 9:36-41
The thieves on the crosses next to Jesus?
.
So what do you think – were some in heaven, some in purgatory, and some in hell? Interesting mix of those raised in the Old Testament, during the life of Jesus, and after Jesus was raised.
.
How about Jesus commanding us to raise the dead? He did not say to raise only those in heaven or purgatory, not those in hell. He didn’t even tell us to inquire about the life of the one to be raised – we would really be in presumption to decide where the dead person was now! So we would have to depend on the leading of the Holy Spirit to tell us or show us the will of the Father, just as Jesus did – there were many that He did not heal, and many more that He did not raise from the dead. Do you agree?

 

[allhers]

In case these were missed:

Both below speak of a cleansing fire.

2Cor3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – 3:13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 3:14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 3:15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1Cor)

1Peter1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 1:5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1:6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, 1:7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[ppasa316]

In 2008 there were literally thousands of post regarding “right standing” or justification and whether or not once gained it can be lost. It might be good for you to read through them using the search option. I don’t believe the NKJV contains 1 & 2 Maccabees so you would have to reference a Catholic edition to read 2 Mac 12:38-46 which mentions prayer for the dead. Mt 12:32 indicates that certain transgressions are forgiven not in this life but in the life to come and 1 Cor 3:15 can be seen as supporting this through a purgation by fire. Belief in Purgatory in no way undermines or detracts from Christ’s salvific act.

Maccabbes is not part of the inspired canon of scripture and therefore has no authority. Along with the rest of the Apocrypha, it was not accepted as inspired by the Jewish community that wrote them. They were not accepted by Jesus and the apostles who never quoted them in the NT. As far as Matt 12:32 the text is not speaking about forgiveness in the next life after suffering for sins but the fact that there will be no forgiveness for this sin in "the world to come. I Cor 3:15 Here Paul is speaking of believers who will one day be given a wage for their service to Christ. The text says nothing about believers suffering the temporal consequence for their sin in purgatory.

 

[ppasa316]

Please let us know the precise instant we are absent from the body.

To be ABSENT from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Canto]

Maccabbes is not part of the inspired canon of scripture and therefore has no authority.

Says who? The council of Rome (382) that gave us the NT canon seemed to think Maccabbes was inspired.

And if you argue the council didn’t give us the NT canon than which person did and if the Holy Spirit to whom?

Along with the rest of the Apocrypha, it was not accepted as inspired by the Jewish community that wrote them.

The Jews have never conisderd the NT inspired either

Ethiopian Jews consider them scriputure today from what I’ve read

The Dead Sea Scrolls have them in Hebrew

They were included in the Septuagint (LXX)
translated by Jews

Most OT quotes in the NT are from the Greek not Hebrew

Greek speaking Jews used them at the time of Christ

At the time of Christ there was no official set canon of Jewish scripture

The Sadducees only accepted the Law (Pentateuch)

c.73 AD the Zealots made a last stand but were overpowered by the Romans who broke into their synagogue (Masada) In the ruins of the synagogue were chapters (scrolls) of Ecclesiasticus (aka Sirach) in Hebrew

They were not accepted by Jesus and the apostles who never quoted them in the NT.

Jesus never gave us a defined OT or NT canon

Obadiah, Zephaniah, Nahum are never quoted - should we give them the boot?

The book of Enoch for example is quoted as is the Assumption of Moses - should we add these?

As far as Matt 12:32 the text is not speaking about forgiveness in the next life after suffering for sins but the fact that there will be no forgiveness for this sin in "the world to come. I Cor 3:15 Here Paul is speaking of believers who will one day be given a wage for their service to Christ. The text says nothing about believers suffering the temporal consequence for their sin in purgatory.

‘not forgiven in the world to come’ impies that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come

If your works abide - heaven
If your works burn - suffer loss
Suffer loss - but cleansed from sin in purgatory

 

[firstmode]

I didn’t think that you had. That is why I provided information about the canon of the Bible. You can find the content of those books at various locations including: www.drbo.org, www.usccb.org and non Catholic sites such as www.biblegateway.com and www.studylight.org.

21 reasons why the Apocrypha is not inspired:

1. The Roman Catholic Church did not officially canonize the Apocrypha until the Council of Trent (1546 AD). This was in part because the Apocrypha contained material which supported certain Catholic doctrines, such as purgatory, praying for the dead, and the treasury of merit.
2. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.
3. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.
4. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.
5. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.
6. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.
7. The Apocrypha inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.
   

   And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchers of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:39-46)

8 The apocrypha contains offensive materials unbecoming of God’s authorship.

Ecclesiasticus 25:19 Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife's iniquity. 

Ecclesiasticus 25:24 From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die. 

Ecclesiasticus 22:3 It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined, and the birth of a daughter is a loss.

9 It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation.
10 The apocryphal books themselves make reference to what we call the Silent 400 years, where there was no prophets of God to write inspired materials.

And they laid up the stones in the mountain of the temple in a convenient place, till there should come a prophet, and give answer concerning them. (1 Maccabees 4:46)

And there was a great tribulation in Israel, such as was not since the day, that there was no prophet seen in Israel. (1 Maccabees 9:27)

And that the Jews, and their priests, had consented that he should be their prince, and high priest for ever, till there should arise a faithful prophet. (1 Maccabees 14:41)

 

[firstmode]

11 Josephus rejected the apocryphal books as inspired and this reflected Jewish thought at the time of Jesus

"From Artexerxes to our own time the complete history has been written but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets." ... "We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine..."(Flavius Josephus, Against Apion 1:8)

12 The Manual of Discipline in the Dead Sea Scrolls rejected the apocrypha as inspired.
13 The Council of Jamnia held the same view rejected the apocrypha as inspired.

They debated the canonicity of a few books (e.g., Ecclesiastes), but they changed nothing and never proclaimed themselves to be authoritative determiners of the Old Testament canon. "The books which they decided to acknowledge as canonical were already generally accepted, although questions had been raised about them. Those which they refused to admit had never been included. They did not expel from the canon any book which had previously been admitted. 'The Council of Jamnia was the confirming of public opinion, not the forming of it.'" (F. F. Bruce, The Books and Parchments [Old Tappan, NJ.: Fleming H. Revell, 1963], p. 98])

14 Although it was occasionally quoted in early church writings, it was nowhere accepted in a canon. Melito (AD 170) and Origen rejected the Apocrypha, (Eccl. Hist. VI. 25, Eusebius) as does the Muratorian Canon.
15 Jerome vigorously resisted including the Apocrypha in his Latin Vulgate Version (400 AD), but was overruled. As a result, the standard Roman Catholic Bible throughout the medieval period contained it. Thus, it gradually came to be revered by the average clergyman. Still, many medieval Catholic scholars realized that it was not inspired.
16 The terms “protocanonical” and “deuterocanonical” are used by Catholics to signify respectively those books of Scripture that were received by the entire Church from the beginning as inspired, and those whose inspiration came to be recognized later, after the matter had been disputed by certain Fathers and local churches.
17 Pope Damasus (366-384) authorized Jerome to translate the Latin Vulgate. The Council of Carthage declared this translation as “the infallible and authentic Bible.” Jerome was the first to describe the extra 7 Old Testament books as the “Apocrypha” (doubtful authenticity). Needless to say, Jerome’s Latin Vulgate did not include the Apocrypha.
18 Cyril (born about A.D. 315) – “Read the divine Scriptures – namely, the 22 books of the Old Testament which the 72 interpreters translated” (the Septuagint)
19 The apocrypha wasn’t included at first in the Septuagint, but was appended by the Alexandrian Jews, and was not listed in any of the catalogues of the inspired books till the 4th century
20 Hilary (bishop of Poictiers, 350 A.D.) rejected the apocrypha (Prologue to the Psalms, Sec. 15)
21 Epiphanius (the great opposer of heresy, 360 A.D.) rejected them all. Referring to Wisdom of Solomon & book of Jesus Sirach, he said “These indeed are useful books & profitable, but they are not placed in the number of the canonical.”

 

[firstmode]

Questions for Catholics and Orthodox:

1. If the Roman Catholic church gave the world the Bible, being infallible, then why did Rome reject or question the inspiration of James and Hebrews , then later accept it? Conversely, Rome accepted as scripture books that were later rejected. If the Catholic church really is illuminated by the Holy Spirit so that men can trust her as “God’s organization”, why was she so wrong about something so simple? Should not the “Holy See” have known?
2. If the Orthodox church gave the world the Bible, being infallible, then why did the eastern churches reject or question the inspiration of Revelation, then later accept it? Conversely, the east accepted as scripture books that were later rejected. If the Orthodox church really is illuminated by the Holy Spirit so that men can trust her as “God’s organization”, why was she so wrong about something so simple?
3. If the Roman Catholic church gave the world the Bible in 397 AD, then why did many different versions of canons continue to circulate long afterwards?
4. If the Roman Catholic church gave us the Bible, why were the two synods of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage, (397 AD) African councils, and not initiatives of Rome?
5. Since the synod Carthage in 393 AD stated, “But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon”, does this not prove that Rome had no direct (name removed by moderator)ut or initiative in determining the canon.
6. Since the two synods of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage, (397 AD) were under the control of what would later become the “orthodox church”, how can the Roman Catholic church claim they determined the Canon? Would not such a claim be more naturally due the Eastern Orthodox church?
7. If the Catholic church, “by her own inherent God given power and authority” gave the world the Bible, why did she not get it right the first time? Why did the Roman Catholic church wait until 1546 AD in the Council of Trent, to officially add the Apocrypha to the Canon?
8. Both Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox church leaders make the identical claim that they gave the world the Bible. If both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches make the same claim they gave the world the Bible, why do they have different books in each of their Bibles? Whose “church authority” shall we believe? Whose tradition is the one we should follow?
9. Provide a single example of a doctrine that originates from an oral Apostolic Tradition that the Bible is silent about? Provide proof that this doctrinal tradition is apostolic in origin.
10. Provide a single example of where inspired apostolic “oral revelation” (tradition) differed from “written” (scripture)?
11. If you are not permitted to engage in private interpretation of the Bible, how do you know which “apostolic tradition” is correct between the Roman Catholic, the Orthodox and the Watchtower churches, for all three teach the organization alone can interpret scripture correctly, to the exclusion of individual?
12. Why did God fail to provide an inspired and infallible list of Old Testament books to Israel? Why would God suddenly provide such a list only after Israel was destroyed in 70 AD?
13. How could the Jews know that books of Kings or Isaiah were Scripture?
14. If the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches both believes that the scripture: “the church is the pillar and foundation of truth” means the church is protected from error then: a. Why do they teach doctrine so different that they are not even in communion with each other? b. How do you account for the vast number of documented theological errors made by the pope and the church in general?
15. If the both the Orthodox and Catholic churches follow apostolic oral tradition exactly, how come they teach doctrine so different, that they are not even in communion with each other?
16. Both Tertullian and Jerome gave a list of oral traditions that were not found in the Bible. (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4), (Jerome, Dialogue Against the Luciferians, 8) Tertullian said of these practices that “without any written instrument, we maintain on the ground of tradition alone”. These include, baptizing by immersion three times, giving the one baptized a “drink of milk and honey” then forbidding the person from taking a bath for a week, kneeling in Sunday mass was forbidden, and the sign of the cross was to be made on the forehead. Jerome, echoing Tertullian, said that these “observances of the Churches, which are due to tradition, have acquired the authority of the written law”. Why does the Catholic church not immerse thrice and allow kneeling? Why do both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches not keep any of these traditions, with the exception of thrice immersion by the Orthodox? Why do Roman Catholic churches today have knelling rails in front of every pew? If the “apostolic tradition” was to make the sign of the cross on the forehead, why do both Orthodox and Catholic churches change this to the current practice of the sign on the chest and head? If extra-biblical oral tradition is to be followed, then why don’t the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches practice all of these things?