Praying for the dead

[Randy_Carson]

21 reasons why the Apocrypha is not inspired:

1. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

Aside from the fact that these books were contained in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament, there is evidence that Jesus referenced at least some of the Deuteros. Here are examples of NT references to the Deuterocanonical books:

New Testament References to Deuterocanonical Books

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Sirach 28:2
Forgive your neighbor’s injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.

+++

Luke 6:31
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Tobit 4:15
Do to no one what you yourself dislike. Do not drink wine till you become drunk, nor let drunkenness accompany you on your way.

+++

Matthew 27:41-43
41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, "but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "

Wisdom 2:15-18
15 Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways. 16 He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. 17 Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. 18 For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. 19 With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him." 21 These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them, 22 And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.

+++

Luke 14:13
13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Tobit 4:7
"Give alms from your possessions. Do not turn your face away from any of the poor, and God’s face will not be turned away from you.

+++

John 10:22
22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,

1 Maccabees 4:59
Then Judas and his brothers and the entire congregation of Israel decreed that the days of the dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness on the anniversary every year for eight days, from the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev.

+++

Romans 9:20
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "

Wisdom 12:12
12 For who can say to you, “What have you done?” or who can oppose your decree? Or when peoples perish, who can challenge you, their maker; or who can come into your presence as vindicator of unjust men?
+++

Romans 9:21
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Wisdom 15:7
For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

+++

Romans 9:22
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Wisdom 12:20
20 For these were enemies of your servants, doomed to death; yet, while you punished them with such solicitude and pleading, granting time and opportunity to abandon wickedness,

+++

Romans 11:34
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

Wisdom 9:13
For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?

+++

2 Corinthians 9:7
7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Sirach 35:9
Give to the Most High as he has given to you, generously, according to your means.

+++

Hebrews 1:3
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Wisdom 7:26
For she is the refulgence of eternal light, the spotless mirror of the power of God, the image of his goodness.

+++

Hebrews 11:35
35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

2 Maccabees 7:7
Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them."

 

[Randy_Carson]

21 reasons why the Apocrypha is not inspired:

1. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

Was that the Catholic Church?

But this is incorrect as the followinig timeline of canonical development will show (the first three councils refute your point directly):

**The Canon and the Councils **

Council of Rome (382 A.D.)

Convoked by Pope Damasus, this council produced the Roman Code. The Roman Code identified a list of scriptural books identical to the Council of Trent’s formally defined canon. Pope Damasus I approved the work of the first Council of Constantinople, accepting St. Athanasius’ list as divinely inspired, and indicated that if any bishop used a list of books inconsistent with the Roman canon he would need a convincing explanation.

Council of Hippo (393 A.D.)

This council reiterated the list of books established by the Council of Rome.

First Council of Carthage (397 A.D.)

This council reiterated the list of books established by the Council of Rome and also affirmed the Decree of Damasus issued in 382 A.D… Carthage*, unlike Hippo, sent its decisions to Rome for ratification. *

Pope Innocent I (405 A.D.)

In a letter to Exsuperius, the Bishop of Toulouse, Pope Innocent listed the same books established by the Council of Rome.
Pope Boniface (ca. 420 A.D.)
Pope St. Boniface I (418-422) ratified the decision of the first Council of Carthage and declared the canon settled for the Western Patriarchate. Boniface also sent the decision to the Eastern patriarchs in Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. At that point, the Catholic Canon of Sacred Scripture was informally accepted worldwide.

Second Council of Carthage (419 A.D.)

This council reiterated the list of books established by the Council of Rome.

Second Council of Nicaea (787 A.D.)

This council formally ratified the African Code which contained the same list of books that Trent would name “canonical”.

Council of Florence (1441 A.D.)

This council defined a list of inspired books identical to those defined by the African Code and the Second Council of Nicaea.

Council of Trent (1546 A.D.)

On April 8, 1546, this council produced a decree, Sacrosancta, which was the first, formal canonical definition of Old and New Testament scripture. This was the third formal affirmation of the list by an ecumenical council and at least the eighth overall.

 

[Randy_Carson]

21 reasons why the Apocrypha is not inspired:

1. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

The Book of Genesis contains stories about floods and a tower built to the sky and other “fabulous statements” while the New Testament records accounts of people being raised from the dead. Fantastic! Genesis also records two completely different accounts of creation. Does this discredit Genesis?

 

[Randy_Carson]

21 reasons why the Apocrypha is not inspired:

1. The Apocrypha inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

Do you not see the flaw in your logic?

The “Apocrypha” cannot be part of the Bible because they contain references to doctrines not contained in the Bible.

Huh?

Because the Deuterocanonicals are inspired scripture, the Bible does contain these doctrines…as found in the Deuterocanonicals.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Interestingly enough that you asked. This doctrine is found in the books of Tobit and 1 and 2 Machabees. Depending what version of the Bible you have, you or may not have those books. These books were in the ancient manuscripts that were used to translate the Bible. The first complete OT and NT Bible as one complete Bible. It was completed in 400. The canon which was set as the standard was established in 397 at the 3rd Council of Carthage. Seven books started to disappear from various Bibles just prior to the reformation. These 7 books are Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, 1 and 2 Machabees. Also parts of Esther and Daniel were omitted. Martin Luther also considered omitting: James, Jude, Revelation as well as he he added to Romans. These books started being removed roughly around 1517 from non Catholic Bibles. The King James Version when first released also had these 7 books. They were finally omitted in 1885. Newer version have never included them.

Can you cite where it is found in Tobit and Maccabees?

 

[Randy_Carson]

21 reasons why the Apocrypha is not inspired:

8 The apocrypha contains offensive materials unbecoming of God’s authorship.

Psalm 58:6-8 (NASB)
6O God, shatter their teeth in their mouth;
Break out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD.
7Let them flow away like water that runs off;
When he aims his arrows, let them be as headless shafts.
8Let them be as a snail which melts away as it goes along,
Like the miscarriages of a woman which never see the sun.

Shall we speak of the adultery of David, the sin of Onan, the prositution of Rahab, etc.?

 

[Canto]

Romans 11:34
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

Wisdom 9:13
For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?

Matthew 27:41-43
41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, "but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "

Wisdom 2:15-18
15 Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways. 16 He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. 17 Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. 18 For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. 19 With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him." 21 These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them, 22 And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Can you cite where it is found in Tobit and Maccabees?

I got Maccabees:

2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

---

Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.

 

[Randy_Carson]

21 reasons why the Apocrypha is not inspired:

9 It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation.

Please provide evidence from the Deuterocanonicals that these things are taught as acceptable practices.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Martin Luther, John Calvin and other Reformers rejected the canonicity of the Apocrypha. Reformed churches followed the Westminister Confession of Faith which states " The Books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspirtation are not part of the canon of the scriptures and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God. Also it lacks the primary determining factor of canonicity: propheticity, that is the apocryphal books lack evidence that they were written by accredited prophets of God.It was never part of th Jewish Canon
Even noted Roman Catholic scholars during the Reformation period rejected the Apocrypha, such as Cardinal Cajetan . He wrote a Commentary on “All the Authentic Historical Books of the OT whcih excluded the Apocrypha”. Thanks
God Bless

PROVIDE A LINK!!!

 

[ppasa316]

PROVIDE A LINK!!!

I gave you two sources that you can look up yourself.

 

[tobinatorstark]

I gave you two sources that you can look up yourself.

obviously you misunderstood what it means for source and documentation. That means scripture and the version that the passage is taken from. Documents, the link where its found etc. For what you quoted could be false. Please provide a link with you documentation. IF you want to debate with me please be prepared with link and documentation

 

[tobinatorstark]

Can you cite where it is found in Tobit and Maccabees?

Tobias 3:1-12

1 Then Tobias sighed, and began to pray with tears, 2 Saying: Thou art just, O Lord, and all thy judgments are just, and all thy ways mercy, and truth, and judgment: 3 And now, O Lord, think of me, and take not revenge of my sins, neither remember my offenses, nor those of my parents. 4 For we have not obeyed thy commandments, therefore are we delivered to spoil and to captivity, and death, and are made a fable, and a reproach to all nations, amongst which thou hast scattered us. 5 And now, O Lord, great are thy judgments, because we have not done according to thy precepts, and have not walked sincerely before thee:

6 And now, O Lord, do with me according to thy will, and command my spirit to be received in peace: for it is better for me to die, than to live. 7 Now it happened on the same day, that Sara daughter of Raguel, in Rages a city of the Medes, received a reproach from one of her father’s servant maids, 8 Because she had been given to seven husbands, and a devil named Asmodeus had killed them, at their first going in unto her. 9 So when she reproved the maid for her fault, she answered her, saying: May we never see son, or daughter of thee upon the earth, thou murderer of thy husbands. 10 Wilt thou kill me also, as thou hast already killed seven husbands? At these words she went into an upper chamber of her house: and for three days and three nights did neither eat nor drink:

7 “Rages”… In the Greek it is Ecbatana, which was also called Rages. For there were two cities in Media of the name of Rages. Raguel dwelt in one of them, and Gabelus in the other.

11 But continuing in prayer with tears besought God, that he would deliver her from this reproach. 12 And it came to pass on the third day, when she was making an end of her prayer, blessing the Lord

Why as a Catholic do you reject purgatory and praying for the dead?

 

[tobinatorstark]

Wisdom 3:1-7 is also confers to the doctrine of purgatory

1 But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. 2 In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: 3 And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. 4 And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. 5 Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

6 As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them. 7 The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds.

 

[EphelDuath]

I have to say, this topic is a bank of knowledge.

Good job, guys.

 

[ppasa316]

obviously you misunderstood what it means for source and documentation. That means scripture and the version that the passage is taken from. Documents, the link where its found etc. For what you quoted could be false. Please provide a link with you documentation. IF you want to debate with me please be prepared with link and documentation/
Please read your Bible. The scriptures that i mentioned before hand should be good enough. Like i said before it is not me saying anything it is THE WORD OF GOD. There is no debate to what the word of God says. Be for real.
Read:
New Catholic Encyclopedia
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma p 483 205 Ott
Roman Catholics and Evangelicals - agreements and differences. (Purgatory)
Please do not respond without scriptures
God Bless

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Tobias 3:1-12

1 Then Tobias sighed, and began to pray with tears, 2 Saying: Thou art just, O Lord, and all thy judgments are just, and all thy ways mercy, and truth, and judgment: 3 And now, O Lord, think of me, and take not revenge of my sins, neither remember my offenses, nor those of my parents. 4 For we have not obeyed thy commandments, therefore are we delivered to spoil and to captivity, and death, and are made a fable, and a reproach to all nations, amongst which thou hast scattered us. 5 And now, O Lord, great are thy judgments, because we have not done according to thy precepts, and have not walked sincerely before thee:

6 And now, O Lord, do with me according to thy will, and command my spirit to be received in peace: for it is better for me to die, than to live. 7 Now it happened on the same day, that Sara daughter of Raguel, in Rages a city of the Medes, received a reproach from one of her father’s servant maids, 8 Because she had been given to seven husbands, and a devil named Asmodeus had killed them, at their first going in unto her. 9 So when she reproved the maid for her fault, she answered her, saying: May we never see son, or daughter of thee upon the earth, thou murderer of thy husbands. 10 Wilt thou kill me also, as thou hast already killed seven husbands? At these words she went into an upper chamber of her house: and for three days and three nights did neither eat nor drink:

7 “Rages”… In the Greek it is Ecbatana, which was also called Rages. For there were two cities in Media of the name of Rages. Raguel dwelt in one of them, and Gabelus in the other.

11 But continuing in prayer with tears besought God, that he would deliver her from this reproach. 12 And it came to pass on the third day, when she was making an end of her prayer, blessing the Lord

Why as a Catholic do you reject purgatory and praying for the dead?

I don’t reject purgatory or praying for the dead, but where in this passage is any one praying for the dead?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I got Maccabees:

2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

---

Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.

Thank you!

 

[tobinatorstark]

Maccabbes is not part of the inspired canon of scripture and therefore has no authority. Along with the rest of the Apocrypha, it was not accepted as inspired by the Jewish community that wrote them. They were not accepted by Jesus and the apostles who never quoted them in the NT. As far as Matt 12:32 the text is not speaking about forgiveness in the next life after suffering for sins but the fact that there will be no forgiveness for this sin in "the world to come. I Cor 3:15 Here Paul is speaking of believers who will one day be given a wage for their service to Christ. The text says nothing about believers suffering the temporal consequence for their sin in purgatory.

in regards of Matthew 12:32 (from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 32. Whosoever, &c. It was their duty to have a knowledge of the Holy Ghost, and they obstinately refused to admit what was clear and manifest. Though they were ignorant of the divinity of Jesus Christ, and might take him to be merely the son of a poor artizan, they could not be ignorant that the expelling of demons, and miraculous healing of all diseases, were the works of the Holy Ghost. If, therefore, they refused to do penance for the insult offered to the Spirit of God, in the person of Christ, they could not hope to escape condign punishment. (St. Chrysostom, hom. xlii). — Against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; i.e. they who for want of sufficient instruction, were invincibly ignorant that Christ was God, might more easily be brought to the true knowledge and faith of Christ, and so receive forgiveness of their sins: but if he shall speak against the Holy Ghost, i.e. against the Spirit of God in Christ, and shall oppose the known truth, by attributing to the devil that doctrine, and those miracles, which evidently were from the Spirit and the hand of God, that sin shall never be forgiven him. But how is this consistent with the Catholic doctrine and belief, that there is no sin any man commits of which he may not obtain pardon in this life? To this I answer, that in what manner soever we expound this place, it is an undoubted point of Christian faith, that there is no sin which our merciful God is not ready to pardon; no sin, for the remission of which, God hath not left a power in his Church, as it is clearly proved by those words, Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, &c. St. Chrysostom therefore expounds these words, shall not be forgiven them, to imply no more, than shall scarcely, or seldom be forgiven; that is, it is very hard for such sinners to return to God, by a true and sincere repentance and conversion; so that this sentence is like to that (Matthew xix. 26.) where Christ seems to call it an impossible thing for a rich man to be saved. In the same place St. Chrysostom tells us, that some of those who had blasphemed against the Holy Ghost, repented, and had their sins forgiven them. St. Augustine, by this blasphemy against the Spirit, understands the sin of final impenitence, by which an obstinate sinner refuseth to be converted, and therefore lives and dies hardened in his sins. (Witham) — Nor in the world to come. From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. lib. xxi. chap. 13.) and St. Gregory (Dial. iv, chap. 39.) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and consequently that there is a purgatory, or a middle place. (Challoner) — St. Augustine says these words would not be true, if some sins were not forgiven in the world to come; and St. Gregory says, we are to believe from these words in the existence of the fire of purgatory, to expiate our smaller offences, before the day of judgment. St. Isidore and Ven. Bede say the same. St. Bernard, speaking of heretics, says, they do not believe in purgatory: let them then inquire of our Saviour, what he meant by these words. — It is well known that Ven. Bede, on his death-bed, bestowed several small tokens to the monks who were present, that they might remember to pray for his soul in the holy sacrifice of the mass. (Haydock)