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tobinatorstark
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problem with the New American Bible. It was translated by Catholic and Protestants and its notes are controversial to Catholic teaching.
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tobinatorstark
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since you choose to you the NAB, you over looked the intro
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/tobit/intro.htm
this does mention prayer for the dead. If you read closely. I prefer to debate using the Douay-Rheims as it is more accurate than the NAB
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/tobit/intro.htm
this does mention prayer for the dead. If you read closely. I prefer to debate using the Douay-Rheims as it is more accurate than the NAB
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tobinatorstark
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It is certainly mentioned in the book of Tobias. You think Raphael heard the prayers??? St. Raphael the Archangel did here the prayers. Prayer for the intercession of Saints.
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CHRISTINE77
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tobinatorstark
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CHRISTINE77
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tobinatorstark
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tobinatorstark
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this link also proves my point.
socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/02/communion-of-saints-biblical-overview.html
socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/02/communion-of-saints-biblical-overview.html
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CHRISTINE77
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tobinatorstark
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tobinatorstark
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would you love to explain to me how in the book of Tobias no praying for the dead occurred??
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Canto
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In Acts Ch9 there is a dead lady
37 And it came to pass in those days that she was sick and died. Whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
Peter goes and vistis her
39 And Peter rising up went with them. And when he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber. And all the widows stood about him, weeping and shewing him the coats and garments which Dorcas made them.
He prays for her
40 And they all being put forth, Peter, kneeling down, prayed. And turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes and, seeing Peter, sat up.
So Peter prayed for a dead person
37 And it came to pass in those days that she was sick and died. Whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
Peter goes and vistis her
39 And Peter rising up went with them. And when he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber. And all the widows stood about him, weeping and shewing him the coats and garments which Dorcas made them.
He prays for her
40 And they all being put forth, Peter, kneeling down, prayed. And turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes and, seeing Peter, sat up.
So Peter prayed for a dead person
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tobinatorstark
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exactly. You have provided a lot. Thanks for numerous scripture support. I hope that maybe you understand the meaning of Tobias 12:12-15 as I do, as I believe he is praying for the dead and asking for Intercession of the saints. In this case St. Raphael the Archangel.In Acts Ch9 there is a dead lady
37 And it came to pass in those days that she was sick and died. Whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
Peter goes and vistis her
39 And Peter rising up went with them. And when he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber. And all the widows stood about him, weeping and shewing him the coats and garments which Dorcas made them.
He prays for her
40 And they all being put forth, Peter, kneeling down, prayed. And turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes and, seeing Peter, sat up.
So Peter prayed for a dead person
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Canto
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Tobit aka Tobias ch12
8 Prayer is good with fasting and alms more than to lay up treasures of gold.
9 For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting.
10 But they that commit sin and iniquity, are enemies to their own soul.
11 I discover then the truth unto you, and I will not hide the secret from you.
12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.
13 And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee.
14 And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son’s wife from the devil.
15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.
16 And when they had heard these things, they were troubled, and being seized with fear they fell upon the ground on their face.
17 And the angel said to them: Peace be to you, fear not.
18 For when I was with you, I was there by the will of God: bless ye him, and sing praises to him.
It sounds like prayer for the dead
The Archangel Raphael helps
It seems he prayed to God and God sent Raphael
8 Prayer is good with fasting and alms more than to lay up treasures of gold.
9 For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting.
10 But they that commit sin and iniquity, are enemies to their own soul.
11 I discover then the truth unto you, and I will not hide the secret from you.
12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.
13 And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee.
14 And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son’s wife from the devil.
15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.
16 And when they had heard these things, they were troubled, and being seized with fear they fell upon the ground on their face.
17 And the angel said to them: Peace be to you, fear not.
18 For when I was with you, I was there by the will of God: bless ye him, and sing praises to him.
It sounds like prayer for the dead
The Archangel Raphael helps
It seems he prayed to God and God sent Raphael
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ppasa316
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Canto
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May David realised his child was with the Lord and so ceased his fast.
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Canto
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Found this on wiki
Within Judaism, prayers for the dead form part of the Jewish services. The prayers offered on behalf of the deceased consist of: Recitation of Psalms; Reciting a thrice daily communal prayer in Aramaic known as “Kaddish” which actually means “Sanctification” (or “[Prayer of] Making Holy”) which is a prayer “In Praise of God”; or other special remembrances known as Yizkor; and also a Hazkara said either on the annual commemoration known as the Yahrzeit as well on Jewish holidays.
The form in use in England contains the following passage: Have mercy upon him; pardon all his transgressions . . . Shelter his soul in the shadow of Thy wings. Make known to him the path of life.
A passage in the New Testament which refers to a prayer for the dead is found in 2 Timothy 1:16-18, which reads as follows:
*May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord’s mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well. *
As with the verses from Maccabees, these verses refer to prayers that will help the deceased on Judgment Day.
It is not stated that Onesiphorus, for whom Saint Paul prayed, was dead, though it is implied, based on the way Paul only refers to him in the past tense, and prays for present blessings on his household, but for him only “on that day”.
And towards the end of the same letter, in 2 Timothy 4:19, Paul sends greetings to “Prisca and Aquila, and the house of Onesiphorus”, distinguishing the situation of Onesiphorus from that of the still living Prisca and Aquila.
Within Judaism, prayers for the dead form part of the Jewish services. The prayers offered on behalf of the deceased consist of: Recitation of Psalms; Reciting a thrice daily communal prayer in Aramaic known as “Kaddish” which actually means “Sanctification” (or “[Prayer of] Making Holy”) which is a prayer “In Praise of God”; or other special remembrances known as Yizkor; and also a Hazkara said either on the annual commemoration known as the Yahrzeit as well on Jewish holidays.
The form in use in England contains the following passage: Have mercy upon him; pardon all his transgressions . . . Shelter his soul in the shadow of Thy wings. Make known to him the path of life.
A passage in the New Testament which refers to a prayer for the dead is found in 2 Timothy 1:16-18, which reads as follows:
*May the Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain, but when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me (the Lord grant to him to find the Lord’s mercy on that day); and in how many things he served at Ephesus, you know very well. *
As with the verses from Maccabees, these verses refer to prayers that will help the deceased on Judgment Day.
It is not stated that Onesiphorus, for whom Saint Paul prayed, was dead, though it is implied, based on the way Paul only refers to him in the past tense, and prays for present blessings on his household, but for him only “on that day”.
And towards the end of the same letter, in 2 Timothy 4:19, Paul sends greetings to “Prisca and Aquila, and the house of Onesiphorus”, distinguishing the situation of Onesiphorus from that of the still living Prisca and Aquila.
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Canto
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At Jimmy Akin’s blog some great posts
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2008/08/prayer-for-the.html
…As Jimmy pointed out, even if you don’t accept that Maccabees is canonical, at the very least you have to admit that it is an authentic text dating to about 100 years before the time of Christ, and that therefore it presents evidence that prayer for the dead was a venerable custom already present when Jesus walked the earth. If it were not true, don’t you think that Jesus would have spoken against it?
…Whether you accept the canonicity of Second Maccabees or not, the book shows that the belief that prayer is profitable for the dead already exist among the Jews in the second century before Christ. That the Jews continue to accept this belief in first centuries of Christian era is evident from certain ancient Jewish works, like 'Sifre to Deuteronomy[a Midrash]'and ‘The Testament of Abraham[First or second century AD]’,which speak of suffrages for the dead. Therefore, Christ and the Apostles, who were Jews, must have been familiar with the belief that prayer is profitable for the dead. But did they accept it? This is where the historical testimony for the Church’s practice of prayer for the dead comes in. If it can proved historically that prayer for the dead was practiced and accepted in the Church in the earliest days of Christianity, then it must be accepted that Christ and the Apostles accepted that practice because the early Church could not have adopted that practice from Judaism through the pharisees or rabbis. No, the only way the early Church could have carried over that practice from Judaism would be if her founder Jesus Christ and the Apostles, who as Jews were familiar with that practiced, accepted it. After all, this was the only way the early Church carried over several other beliefs and practices from Judaism which the majority of protestants today still accept with us (i.e reality of hell, resurrection of the dead, immortality of the soul, e.t.c).Now, can it be proved historically that prayer for the dead was practiced and accepted in the Church in the earliest days of Christianity? Yes, it can. Check out the following testimonies from ancient Christian literature which dates from the second to fifth century AD:
St.EPIPHANIUS OF SALAMIS(310/320-403):
“Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf…it is useful, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily.”[Panarion,75:8]
St.AMBROSE OF MILAN (340-397):
“Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints…I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord, to which his deserts call him.”[De obitu Theodosii]
St. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (347-407):
By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf."[Homilies on Phillipians,3]
St. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO (354-430):
For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard;
c.f. also [edited to be briefer I can supply the quotes to the *c.f. if you wish]
ACTS OF PAUL AND THECLA (160AD):
THE PASSION OF PERPETUA AND FELICITIAS (202AD):
TERTULLIAN (150)
ST. CYPRAIN (d.258AD):
EUSEBIUS PAMPILIUS (265-339):
St. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM(313-386):
St. EPHRAEM (d.374):
…As far as purgatory, I was once challenged on the fact that ‘to be absent from the body, is to be with the Lord’ (2 Cor. 5:6-8); to which I replied, “since Jesus is the one doing the purging, one would need to be with Jesus in order to be purged”.
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2008/08/prayer-for-the.html
…As Jimmy pointed out, even if you don’t accept that Maccabees is canonical, at the very least you have to admit that it is an authentic text dating to about 100 years before the time of Christ, and that therefore it presents evidence that prayer for the dead was a venerable custom already present when Jesus walked the earth. If it were not true, don’t you think that Jesus would have spoken against it?
…Whether you accept the canonicity of Second Maccabees or not, the book shows that the belief that prayer is profitable for the dead already exist among the Jews in the second century before Christ. That the Jews continue to accept this belief in first centuries of Christian era is evident from certain ancient Jewish works, like 'Sifre to Deuteronomy[a Midrash]'and ‘The Testament of Abraham[First or second century AD]’,which speak of suffrages for the dead. Therefore, Christ and the Apostles, who were Jews, must have been familiar with the belief that prayer is profitable for the dead. But did they accept it? This is where the historical testimony for the Church’s practice of prayer for the dead comes in. If it can proved historically that prayer for the dead was practiced and accepted in the Church in the earliest days of Christianity, then it must be accepted that Christ and the Apostles accepted that practice because the early Church could not have adopted that practice from Judaism through the pharisees or rabbis. No, the only way the early Church could have carried over that practice from Judaism would be if her founder Jesus Christ and the Apostles, who as Jews were familiar with that practiced, accepted it. After all, this was the only way the early Church carried over several other beliefs and practices from Judaism which the majority of protestants today still accept with us (i.e reality of hell, resurrection of the dead, immortality of the soul, e.t.c).Now, can it be proved historically that prayer for the dead was practiced and accepted in the Church in the earliest days of Christianity? Yes, it can. Check out the following testimonies from ancient Christian literature which dates from the second to fifth century AD:
St.EPIPHANIUS OF SALAMIS(310/320-403):
“Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf…it is useful, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily.”[Panarion,75:8]
St.AMBROSE OF MILAN (340-397):
“Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints…I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord, to which his deserts call him.”[De obitu Theodosii]
St. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (347-407):
By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf."[Homilies on Phillipians,3]
St. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO (354-430):
For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard;
c.f. also [edited to be briefer I can supply the quotes to the *c.f. if you wish]
ACTS OF PAUL AND THECLA (160AD):
THE PASSION OF PERPETUA AND FELICITIAS (202AD):
TERTULLIAN (150)
ST. CYPRAIN (d.258AD):
EUSEBIUS PAMPILIUS (265-339):
St. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM(313-386):
St. EPHRAEM (d.374):
…As far as purgatory, I was once challenged on the fact that ‘to be absent from the body, is to be with the Lord’ (2 Cor. 5:6-8); to which I replied, “since Jesus is the one doing the purging, one would need to be with Jesus in order to be purged”.
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tobinatorstark
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ACTS OF PAUL AND THECLA (160AD):
THE PASSION OF PERPETUA AND FELICITIAS (202AD):
TERTULLIAN (150)
ST. CYPRAIN (d.258AD):
EUSEBIUS PAMPILIUS (265-339):
St. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM(313-386):
St. EPHRAEM (d.374):
…As far as purgatory, I was once challenged on the fact that ‘to be absent from the body, is to be with the Lord’ (2 Cor. 5:6-8); to which I replied, “since Jesus is the one doing the purging, one would need to be with Jesus in order to be purged”.
Thank you for all the wealth of information. You truly are knowledgeable. Keep carrying on the faith
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ppasa316
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My point exactly!! Thank You
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