Praying in Latin

[LilyM]

Worshipped in Hebrew, according to my sources.

And NOT in Latin - nor did most of His followers for centuries after His death. Which is the point because we are not discussing the importance or effects of having a special liturgical language in general, but the importance and efficacy of Latin in particular.

As for it engendering greater unity and the rest of the goals you have mentioned - admirable and important as those goals are, I can attest to the fact that I am more conscious when praying in English than Latin of just how many people have prayed and are praying those same prayers alongside me.

This is partly because Latin to me very explicitly excludes all the wonderful Orthodox and Eastern Catholics who worship and have worshipped with us, in spirit and truth but never in Latin.

 

[TrueLight]

This is partly because Latin to me very explicitly excludes all the wonderful Orthodox and Eastern Catholics who worship and have worshipped with us, in spirit and truth but never in Latin.

Yet they are praying in Ukrainian, or Greek, Egyptian or whatever, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yet they are praying in Ukrainian, or Greek, Egyptian or whatever, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Some appear to think that it as “efficacious” as Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

And NOT in Latin - nor did most of His followers for centuries after His death.

Not even in Vulgar Latin? According to a PBS documentary, St. Paul was surprised at the significant number of Christians already in Rome by the time he arrived there. Also seeing that the inscription above the cross was written in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, in Judea of all places (I don’t know how unusual that was), maybe we shouldn’t quickly presume Christ, or his followers, understood no Latin. But I digress somewhat as the topic is PRAYING in Latin so you may be right.

 

[una_fides]

It is quite amazing, and shows a fundamental lack undestanding of what prayer really is, or what it can become as one progresses.

So promoting praying in Latin somehow takes away from one spiritually or runs the risk of distracting from “what prayer really is”? Are you proposing that we all just skip Latin and follow instead your own ideas concerning prayer, and do you think these ideas somehow escaped even the greatest minds of popes throughout the centuries who have promoted the many benefits to the faithful everywhere to pray in Latin?

Please also notice the difference between our methods of argumentation. I am presenting authoritative Church teachings concerning the use of the Latin language in prayer from holy popes and saints, and so far all that has been cited in your defense has been an unknown monk that gave you advice and your own ideas concerning Latin being somehow infantile compared to your own spiritual progress. I responded earlier to these ideas here and here. Popes promote praying in Latin because it is a great spiritual help and works as a great aid to propel one into deeper prayer and meditation. If you want others to progress in their lives of prayer, then the last thing you would ever want to do is dissuade them from engaging in positive and helpful spiritual behavior that popes have authoritatively encouraged, promoted, and recommended.

I find this quote from St Augustine helpful for us if we think that we have risen to great heights in our spiritual lives: “Do you wish to rise? Begin by descending. You plan a tower that will pierce the clouds? Lay first the foundation of humility.” That is something we should remember when researching methods of prayer or when engaging in prayer in Latin or any language. Obviously we first and foremost must be humble and docile to the teachings of our Holy Mother the Church, which are the teachings of Christ himself. To paraphrase from another teaching of St Augustine: If we wish to progress in relationship with God our Father, we must do so through his Church, our mother.

 

[TimothyH]

So promoting praying in Latin somehow takes away from one spiritually or runs the risk of distracting from “what prayer really is”? Are you proposing that we all just skip Latin and follow instead your own ideas concerning prayer, and do you think these ideas somehow escaped even the greatest minds of popes throughout the centuries who have promoted the many benefits to the faithful everywhere to pray in Latin?

Please also notice the difference between our methods of argumentation. I am presenting authoritative Church teachings concerning the use of the Latin language in prayer from holy popes and saints, and so far all that has been cited in your defense has been an unknown monk that gave you advice and your own ideas concerning Latin being somehow infantile compared to your own spiritual progress. I responded earlier to these ideas here and here. Popes promote praying in Latin because it is a great spiritual help and works as a great aid to propel one into deeper prayer and meditation. If you want others to progress in their lives of prayer, then the last thing you would ever want to do is dissuade them from engaging in positive and helpful spiritual behavior that popes have authoritatively encouraged, promoted, and recommended.

I find this quote from St Augustine helpful for us if we think that we have risen to great heights in our spiritual lives: “Do you wish to rise? Begin by descending. You plan a tower that will pierce the clouds? Lay first the foundation of humility.”

Obviously we first and foremost must be humble and docile to the teachings of our Holy Mother the Church, which are the teachings of Christ himself. To paraphrase from another teaching of St Augustine: If we wish to progress in relationship with God our Father, we must do so through his Church, our mother.

Do you pray? I mean really pray?

Do you sit, or kneel, place yourself in God’s presence, and have a conversation with the one whom you love more than life itself?

Do you pour your heart out, and beg for help, and cry because of how sorry you are for the things you have done to offend God, and sit at the foot of his throne in utter amazement at how good he has been to you in spite of all you have done?

Then King David went in and sat before the LORD and said, "Who am I, Lord GOD, and who are the members of my house, that you have brought me to this point? (1 Samuel 7:18)

Do you ever pray like this?

-Tim-

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I think Tim has brought up a very valid point.
Some of my most “effacious” prayer has been that when I say nothing verbally, and just let my heart speak, in it’s own language to the God who created me and is continually calling me back to him. I don’t think He really cares how I do it, so long as I do it.

For those of you who feel that praying in Latin helps bring you closer to God, and helps to unite you with Holy Mother Church, have at it! Just please do not tell me that because I choose to pray in my native language that my prayers are not as “effacious”. that is just a bunch of malarky, and totally misrepresents what has been said by Popes, Saints & Church Fathers.

That is not to say that Latin is an important component in the Latin Church. I do believe that all Latin Rite Catholics should have some knowledge of Latin, and should, at the minimum, be able to follow along with the Gloria, the Creed, the Sanctus & the Agnus Dei, however to say that prayer is “better” if it is is Latin is purly subjective, and the attitude that seems to come from it’s proponents, is a definite “turn-off” to learning any more Latin to me.

Do you pray? I mean really pray?

Do you sit, or kneel, place yourself in God’s presence, and have a conversation with the one whom you love more than life itself?

Do you pour your heart out, and beg for help, and cry because of how sorry you are for the things you have done to offend God, and sit at the foot of his throne in utter amazement at how good he has been to you in spite of all you have done?

Then King David went in and sat before the LORD and said, "Who am I, Lord GOD, and who are the members of my house, that you have brought me to this point? (1 Samuel 7:18)

Do you ever pray like this?

-Tim-

 

[una_fides]

And NOT in Latin - nor did most of His followers for centuries after His death. Which is the point because we are not discussing the importance or effects of having a special liturgical language in general, but the importance and efficacy of Latin in particular.

Should the practice of the Church Christ founded and the teachings it has authoritatively provided us not also be taken into consideration? This sounds like a protestant line of argument / reasoning: Whatever was done originally in the early Church was correct, and the Church since then has just messed things up. This thinking has a view of a church like a statue that does not and should not change, grow, and develop, but that should remain locked in time as it was in the beginning. In reality, the Catholic teaching is that the Church in its infancy was like a small plant that has since grown sprouted and developed organically throughout the centuries. These organic developments, aka traditions, come from experience. We also must be submissive to the Church’s Magisterium, which Christ himself taught when he said to the apostles and their successors, “whoever hears you hears me.”

 

[una_fides]

As for it engendering greater unity and the rest of the goals you have mentioned … Latin to me very explicitly excludes all the wonderful Orthodox and Eastern Catholics who worship and have worshipped with us, in spirit and truth but never in Latin.

I’m confused by your comments. How does Latin exclude the eastern Churches? Does praying in English somehow make it better or exclude them less? What about eastern Churches that pray in different languages? Aren’t they being just as “excluded” when you pray in any language different than theirs?

The Church teaches that Latin actually binds all Churches throughout the world together in union not division. Do you agree that the Latin Church has authority over every other Church and that this unity founded in Peter is essential to the Church’s founding and mission?

If you do not agree with the teachings of the popes concerning Latin, could you please at least openly admit this? If perhaps you haven’t read their teachings yet, they have been posted throughout this thread and also are dispersed on links on the Why Pray in Latin section of the website.

These teachings also really make sense if you really think about it. Praying in many different languages does not unify; it divides. When a Church shares in one universal tongue it becomes a bond of unity that in a sense undoes the chaos that occurred at the Tower of Babel so that everyone who is a member of that Church’s Rite can pray and understand in one universal language regardless of their native tongue.

 

[una_fides]

Do you pray? I mean really pray?

Do you sit, or kneel, place yourself in God’s presence, and have a conversation with the one whom you love more than life itself?

Do you pour your heart out, and beg for help, and cry because of how sorry you are for the things you have done to offend God, and sit at the foot of his throne in utter amazement at how good he has been to you in spite of all you have done?
Then King David went in and sat before the LORD and said, "Who am I, Lord GOD, and who are the members of my house, that you have brought me to this point? (1 Samuel 7:18)Do you ever pray like this?

Perhaps you have a misconception that prayer in Latin somehow excludes this reality of desire that is attached to the prayers we say. Are you advocating praying and saying whatever comes to mind is superior to praying the prayers of the Church or are you just saying that it is necessary for your soul to pray and for you to attach great meaning to your prayers? For your prayers to drive you to greater love of God? I think Latin accomplishes this to a great extent and is not in any way incompatible but instead is complementary to this ideal. The more you learn to pray in Latin the more second nature it becomes. You can have such great meaning attached to say the confiteor when you are prostrate begging God for forgiveness of your sins and asking the saints to intercede to God on your behalf. And what a great sense of awe and devotion comes from praying in this sacred language!

Saint Therese of Lisieux explains in her book “The Story of a Soul” that she prayed the Divine Office in Latin, though she herself, who had never committed one mortal sin in her entire life, felt in her own words “very unworthy” to do so. The sense of the sacred nature of these prayers of the Church being prayed in the Church’s mother tongue can bring about this sort of great devotion and realization of unworthiness in the sight of almighty God, and it also brings about a realization of God’s transcendence. He is not just a friend that you speak with in your own language. He is Almighty God who is much greater than us than we can ever imagine. Christ himself prayed in a sacred liturgical language as well. It’s a universal understanding that has been handed down and promoted by popes throughout the centuries.

I have never said anything that has implied that praying in a vernacular language is somehow inferior and is not efficacious. God forbid! I’m only repeating and emphasizing what popes and saints have taught. If you find this offensive or disagree, take it up with them!

 

[una_fides]

Just please do not tell me that because I choose to pray in my native language that my prayers are not as “effacious”. that is just a bunch of malarky, and totally misrepresents what has been said by Popes, Saints & Church Fathers. … to say that prayer is “better” if it is is Latin is purly subjective

Wow. Crazy how things get blown out of proportion so easily.

Can you please cite the source of your confusion or where someone said those exact things? I believe you have some misunderstandings as to what has been said and the context of the use of words like “effective” or “efficacious” must be taken into consideration. The statements concerning effectiveness of Latin in producing a specific desired result was recently clarified in this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9726111&postcount=166

Certainly someone can subjectively argue that praying in whatever language is more “effective” for them generally speaking. There was also never any comparison being made as to one person’s prayer life with another. The main point of discussion is whether Latin has certain benefits for those who desire to employ its usage in prayer. That’s it. No one is bound to pray in Latin in their private devotions. If you want to pray only in English that’s fine. But to say that Latin somehow does not have its own unique benefits being a sacred language is ignoring papal teachings at best. The question is not one of “effectiveness” because that is completely subjective and incomplete. Effective at what? That post above addresses those concerns specifically.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I really don’t think I am misunderstanding your point,
especially based on this post, my emphasis added

If someone’s goal is to not

participate more fully in their bond and union with Rome and the saints throughout the Church’s history, and if he doesn’t want an added sense of awe and the sacred in his prayers, then yes praying in Latin in that case would be less “effective” for that person . Obviously Latin also does not facilitate a “Jesus is my homeboy” kind of mentality either, so it also would not help anyone attain any such nonsensical goals, and obviously such persons would think it to be useless and a waste of time since it’s not going to help them produce their liberally minded agenda.
If we accept the Church’s teaching on Latin, then that means we accept that Latin accomplishes the effects which the Church says it accomplishes.

For some, Latin may be difficult more than for others, but that labor of love can obviously bear much fruit. I’ve seen this happen in the lives of others who have struggled much at first with the language, and now they would not fathom their lives without it. I’ve also seen others who are able to pick it up fairly easily. Everyone’s aptitude for language is different, but I think we should keep in mind a great motivational teaching “to whom much is given much will be required.”

It is apparent to me that you believe that if one chooses not to learn to pray in Latin, that they obviously do not want to unite themselves with Holy Mother Chruch, and that they most certainly have a “liberal agenda”.
Am I missing something?

 

[Holly3278]

I pray in English all the time unless I am praying a prayer that says “Gloria Deo” which means “Glory to God.” I don’t know any other Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

Effective at what?

Not that it’s the only one, but it’s effective at being preserved for two millennia, without change of meanings.

 

[ProVobis]

however to say that prayer is “better” if it is is Latin is purly subjective, and the attitude that seems to come from it’s proponents, is a definite “turn-off” to learning any more Latin to me.

I used to think so too until I read the Apostolic Constitution “Veterum Sapientia” written just a few months before Pope John XXIII convened Vatican II.

 

[una_fides]

It is apparent to me that you believe that if one chooses not to learn to pray in Latin, that they obviously do not want to unite themselves with Holy Mother Chruch, and that they most certainly have a “liberal agenda”.
Am I missing something?

WOW. Yes, you missed my point entirely, and completely changed what I said and the point I was trying to make. Let me break it down for clarity:

• We know praying in Latin produces unity with Rome, per papal teaching.
• This is a desired effect that someone can gain from praying in Latin.
• Let’s say a person personally does not see a benefit or does not desire to unite himself with Rome.
• Then this particular effect that Latin produces of unity with Rome would not be appealing to that person.
• Therefore, that person who already does not desire union with Rome would not find Latin beneficial for him because he does not want to accomplish this goal of uniting with Rome.

Take a fundamentalist for example. Latin would not be “effective” in his mind because he would not want to unite himself with Rome. The point was referring to “effectiveness” of the Latin language from the perspective of the person who would be considering using the language. Make sense?

It is not saying that anyone who does not pray in Latin does not desire unity with Rome. That is a completely illogical jump that does not at all follow. The point that was being made regarding “effectiveness” is that if that person who did desire unity with Rome and did choose to pray in Latin then the language would be able to have its desired effect. To better understand this context and the point I was making please read this post again.

To say that anyone on the face of the earth who does not pray in Latin automatically and by that very fact alone therefore does not want to be in union with Rome and has a liberal agenda is completely absurd! You really have to turn around what I said to make it say something so ridiculous. I mean what if a person is incapable of praying in Latin? Does that mean he therefore has a liberal agenda and doesn’t want to be Catholic or unite himself with Rome? Obviously any person’s subjective reason for choosing to pray in whatever way he chooses is something that he has to answer personally for to God and is not something we can know without at least additional information.

Now someone not praying in Latin and someone actively opposing others to pray in Latin or someone who is discouraging others who do so is an entirely different matter.

 

[una_fides]

In order to make it easy for people to read the relevant papal teachings on Latin, a new page has been constructed on the Praying in Latin website dedicated solely for this purpose. It contains a compilation of authoritative papal teachings along with links to the full texts of each of their statements. If you notice any papal quotes that are missing, please post them so they can be added.

sites.google.com/site/prayinglatin/papal-teachings

 

[Rich_C]

Think a lot of posters in this thread are elevationg una fides’ claims to extreme or at least exagerated levels. I actually didn’t agree with him until I realized how weak most of these objections sound.

First of all, I never saw the OP state that everyone must learn to pray in Latin, but that all else being equal, people stand to benefit from it so everyone should be open to the idea. I can get on board with that.

From the writings of the saints, it seems clear that the highest form of prayer people can achieve isn’t verbal, but posters who use this against praying in Latin are making the perfect the enemy of the good, and distorting the OP’s claim, which was only that as far as verbal prayer goes, there are some real benefits to knowing some prayers in Latin.

Also, I think he’s made it clear that he doesn’t disdain vernacular prayer as being without value. Just that is does not have the same advantages in the areas of enhancing unity with Rome and other Catholics through language.

And last, having thought it over, I don’t see any reason why Eastern Catholics should be offended at knowing the Pater Noster or some such prayer in Latin. People have acted as if the OP said they should have Latin liturgies if they really want to show obedience to the Holy Father, which is not the case. We all know the Kyrie in Greek, and I remember hearing Abp. Fulton Sheen mention how the Mass included all the languages of Calvary: Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. That is a neat link to the original sacrifice, and how could it hurt the liturgically Greek churches to say a prayer in Latin from time to time? Has the OP suggested any more than that?

Finally, no one has brought forward any words from the Church to argue against him, whereas he has produced a lot. Admitting it’s possible that he could take those words beyond their original meaning, I would expect at least a passable quote against his point if there was a real objective to be made.

Really, I think people are just being contrary.

 

[ProVobis]

Do you pray? I mean really pray?

Do you sit, or kneel, place yourself in God’s presence, and have a conversation with the one whom you love more than life itself?

Do you pour your heart out, and beg for help, and cry because of how sorry you are for the things you have done to offend God, and sit at the foot of his throne in utter amazement at how good he has been to you in spite of all you have done?
Then King David went in and sat before the LORD and said, "Who am I, Lord GOD, and who are the members of my house, that you have brought me to this point? (1 Samuel 7:18)
Do you ever pray like this?

Yes, but why do I have to pray in English? As Polish is my first language, English prayer and scripture is work for me, but a convenience for you. Do you see my point?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes, but why do I have to pray in English? As Polish is my first language, English prayer and scripture is work for me, but a convenience for you. Do you see my point?

No one is saying you have to pray in English.

Contrary to those who are pushing Latin as a must those of us on the other side are saying use whatever language is best for you.

I have to wonder how much of this idea that praying in Latin is more “efficacious” is the remnants of Latin Triumphalism (that the Latin Church is superior to all other Churches) by saying that praying in Latin is more “efficacious” one is saying that the Latin Mass is more “efficacious” than all the Eucharistic Rites of the other Churches who use the vernacular.