Praying in Latin

[ProVobis]

How about the fact that Muslims have their services in Arabic and Orthodox Jews, Hebrew (I think)? Doesn’t that show there is value in having a common liturgical language?

Up till the last council, probably the only major religion using the vernacular were the Protestants. Seeing that there are now about 30,000 denominations, who can really say the Reformers had the right idea?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

How about the fact that Muslims have their services in Arabic and Orthodox Jews, Hebrew (I think)? Doesn’t that show there is value in having a common liturgical language?

I would hate to see Latin fall into disuse as much as I would hate to see that happen with Church Slavonic. Yet, there is likely more danger of the latter than the former, and its unlikely in both cases. They remain preserved for use in concelebration and rightly deserve a place in the tradition of the respective Churches that use them. The question then becomes whether or not they need be preserved via common use, as well.

While I cannot comment intelligently on Islamic tradition, I have enjoyed close relationships with many friends of the Jewish faith all my life. Even in my most recent experience at temple (Conservative), all the Scripture readings were done exclusively in Hebrew as is customary. My friends would tell you that they only know how to read Hebrew, and don’t have the skills to follow along by ear with understanding. They rely upon translations and the preachings of their rabbi for explanation and comprehension of the Scriptural lessons.

 

[ProVobis]

The problem is that some people don’t even know what some of the words mean, how will they be catechized by the Liturgy?

Prior to the 60’s, most Catholics were catechized in Catholic schools; the nuns even catechized the public school kids once a week. To expect people to be catechized by the liturgy only is I think expecting a little bit too much, regardless of the language of the Mass. There is no evidence that the vernacular has made the gist of the Mass more understandable.

 

[TrueLight]

Even in my most recent experience at temple (Conservative), all the Scripture readings were done exclusively in Hebrew as is customary. My friends would tell you that they only know how to read Hebrew, and don’t have the skills to follow along by ear with understanding. They rely upon translations and the preachings of their rabbi for explanation and comprehension of the Scriptural lessons.

That makes perfect sense. And that’s how I see it. No one gets catechized in Latin or even hears homilies in Latin. Plus everyone actually knows what the prayers mean because it is right there in the Missal.

 

[TrueLight]

Do we really want to compare our faith with them?

As much as it pains me to say it, Islam ain’t going nowhere. In fact, isn’t it growing by leaps and bounds?.

 

[TrueLight]

And the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics use the vernacular. Protestants also use the vernacular.

Doesn’t this show something as well?

For a period the Latin Church used the vernacular, first Greek and then Latin. I believe it is an aberration that the Latin Church continued to use Latin when it was no longer the vernacular.

I prefer to use the word development than aberration.

 

[ProVobis]

While I cannot comment intelligently on Islamic tradition, I have enjoyed close relationships with many friends of the Jewish faith all my life. Even in my most recent experience at temple (Conservative), all the Scripture readings were done exclusively in Hebrew as is customary. My friends would tell you that they only know how to read Hebrew, and don’t have the skills to follow along by ear with understanding. They rely upon translations and the preachings of their rabbi for explanation and comprehension of the Scriptural lessons.

I guess it’s understandable if the knowledge is only required an hour a week or so, if that much. There isn’t much incentive there. If one uses the language 8 hours a day (a computer language, for example) or 24/7, then naturally he will learn all the ins and outs of that language.

 

[ProVobis]

As much as it pains me to say it, Islam ain’t going nowhere. In fact, isn’t it growing by leaps and bounds?.

I live less than a mile away from a mosque. There is always heavy traffic here around 1pm on Fridays. Their parking lots are more than full.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

That makes perfect sense. And that’s how I see it. No one gets catechized in Latin or even hears homilies in Latin. Plus everyone actually knows what the prayers mean because it is right there in the Missal.

I understand your perspective. I just usually come back to the Liturgy of the Word, in particular, and feel that vernacular must be strongly considered as a “default” for the benefit of the faithful.

CTG and others could likely confirm that Scripture readings are sometimes done in both languages in UGCC services. In Ruthenian tradition, the Pascal Gospel reading is properly done (when possible) in Slavonic, Greek and local vernacular, with the latter being used almost exclusively for normal worship, even when the DL is otherwise celebrated in Church Slavonic.

My exposure to Church Slavonic was very limited in my youth, yet after a few short months in a Cathedral parish setting, I was leading responses at the early morning Slavonic DL on Sundays. I first learned pronunciation, then responses became familiar and later common words and phrases. Yet, I still struggle with anything longer than the Lord’s Prayer (the Creed always trips me up in spots), and I could never fully appreciate a Scripture reading in Church Slavonic without a side-by-side translation in front of me. Point being, my literacy is fine for liturgical responses and basic prayers, yet my actual command and comprehension is still rather weak. I can only relate based on my own experience to Latin Catholics attempting to immerse in Latin Mass with no working knowledge of the language.

 

[TrueLight]

Point being, my literacy is fine for liturgical responses and basic prayers, yet my actual command and comprehension is still rather weak. I can only relate based on my own experience to Latin Catholics attempting to immerse in Latin Mass with no working knowledge of the language.

This is true and to be honest I believe that is how it is for Orthodox or Conservative Jews and Muslims. I doubt very much an American Muslim can have a full conversation in Arabic. I don’t know if attending Jewish schools makes one conversant in Hebrew.

But suppose I’m saying the Ave Maria in Latin. I know what I’m saying. Or maybe the Gloria Patri. These are prayers which we all know their meaning. For me, saying the Ave Maria in Latin tells my brain “Ding”, you are using liturgical language and my mind shifts, alpha waves get bigger. That may not be the case for everyone.

I think it’s a beautiful thing.

 

[ConstantineTG]

As much as it pains me to say it, Islam ain’t going nowhere. In fact, isn’t it growing by leaps and bounds?.

We still regard them as a false and heretical religion. So why would we want to copy anything they are doing?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Prior to the 60’s, most Catholics were catechized in Catholic schools; the nuns even catechized the public school kids once a week. To expect people to be catechized by the liturgy only is I think expecting a little bit too much, regardless of the language of the Mass. There is no evidence that the vernacular has made the gist of the Mass more understandable.

This is the problem here. We have to accept that we live in a post-Christian society. It ain’t the 60s anymore and nothing we can do will bring that back. Latin in Liturgy won’t do it. Society as a whole has moved on and we have to adapt to the signs of the times.

Where’s the ecumenical spirit?

My ecumenism is limited to Churches that have an Apostolic origin

 

[ProVobis]

We still regard them as a false and heretical religion. So why would we want to copy anything they are doing?

I don’t know how to comment on that. The one Maronite liturgy around me uses Arabic.

 

[TrueLight]

We still regard them as a false and heretical religion. So why would we want to copy anything they are doing?

Because no group is 100% wrong and you can learn even from heretical people because what makes them so dangerous is that they have elements of truth mixed in with untruth.

We have to admit that the Arabic unites them quite a bit.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t know how to comment on that. The one Maronite liturgy around me uses Arabic.

Because Arabic is a vernacular language in use by many in the Middle East. I highly doubt they are doing that out of admiration of Islam.

Because no group is 100% wrong and you can learn even from heretical people because what makes them so dangerous is that they have elements of truth mixed in with untruth.

We have to admit that the Arabic unites them quite a bit.

Not true. There are factions within Islam and they hate each other. Just look at what the Sunnis and Shiites are doing in Iraq.

 

[TrueLight]

Because Arabic is a vernacular language in use by many in the Middle East. I highly doubt they are doing that out of admiration of Islam.

Not true. There are factions within Islam and they hate each other. Just look at what the Sunnis and Shiites are doing in Iraq.

I mean that it unites them against non-Muslims. Of course there are internal factions.

 

[ProVobis]

Because Arabic is a vernacular language in use by many in the Middle East. I highly doubt they are doing that out of admiration of Islam.

I don’t know. They could be converts. Malphono would probably know more.

 

[tradcatho]

I am new to these forums so if this is a question someone has asked before , please indulge me… I have recently refound my Catholic faith because of the Tradition movement of the SSPX. Prayers have become new and alive for me! I am learning to pray the rosary in latin right now… Has anyone else begun doing their prayers in latin here and does it move you as it does me? I am so thankful for this site and for all who have stuck their necks out to keep the true Catholic faith alive during these years of misguided teachings and morals…

 

[una_fides]

The problem is that some people don’t even know what some of the words mean, how will they be catechized by the Liturgy?

They can certainly read along in their missals. I know mine contains more excellent descriptions of what takes place at Mass than in all the homilies I’ve ever heard in my entire life.

A friend of mine pointed out that those who attend the Traditional Latin Mass often tend to pay more attention to the Mass as they follow along actively in their missals as opposed to what he has experienced and witnessed in vernacular only masses where many just go through the motions and don’t give much thought at all to what they are saying. I’ve witnessed this phenomena as well at TLM’s where everyone seems to be paying so much attention to what is taking place.

I think there is also something to say as to the nature of Latin itself as having a certain dignity to it that elevates the mind automatically to things of God.

“Latin … through its dignified character elicit a profound sense of the Eucharistic Mystery” (Pope John Paul II, Dominicae Cenae 10, 1980).

This language is not used for anything else other than this purpose, and it was also consecrated in a sense through its inscription on the holy Cross itself. It makes sense why experienced exorcists report the demons reacting so hatefully to its usage.

 

[TrueLight]

I am new to these forums so if this is a question someone has asked before , please indulge me… I have recently refound my Catholic faith because of the Tradition movement of the SSPX. Prayers have become new and alive for me! I am learning to pray the rosary in latin right now… Has anyone else begun doing their prayers in latin here and does it move you as it does me? I am so thankful for this site and for all who have stuck their necks out to keep the true Catholic faith alive during these years of misguided teachings and morals…

Hello fellow NY’er! Welcpme to CAF.

Just an FYI, this site is not to open to language like “the true Catholic faith” or any insinuation that the TLM is more efficacious or anything along those lines, so you’ll need to tone down any future rhetoric some. Just a friendly warning

I was never crazy about praying the Rosary until I started saying it in Latin.