Praying in Latin

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I’m surprised that you have read the book since you had earlier called into question the legitimacy of his saying that the Latin language is more effective at driving away evil. Well either way, I guess we are at least in agreement now that his comment was not dubious right.
As I noted, I have found a few of his books interesting. Yet, with all due respect to Fr. Amorth he is known to make few sensational claims over the years. It’s possible he utilizes exaggeration to make his point(s)? The claim, “Latin prayers are more effective in driving away the demonic” is questionable. Why? The revised “Rite of Exorcism” (1999) has translations of the ritual into the languages spoken in the various regions. Thus, if Latin was more effective I’d trust the Church would make certain of it’s exclusive use.
 
For those of you who are interested in praying in Latin, this site has hundreds of prayers (probably, I haven;t actually counted them, there’s a lot anyway). The easiest way to navigate is to click the ‘table of contents’ button and then they’re all nicely organised by theme.
 
As I noted, I have found a few of his books interesting. Yet, with all due respect to Fr. Amorth he is known to make few sensational claims over the years. It’s possible he utilizes exaggeration to make his point(s)? The claim, “Latin prayers are more effective in driving away the demonic” is questionable. Why? The revised “Rite of Exorcism” (1999) has translations of the ritual into the languages spoken in the various regions. Thus, if Latin was more effective I’d trust the Church would make certain of it’s exclusive use.
So because the Church permits an option you believe it is therefore automatically the equivalent and just as beneficial and effective as the traditional practice? There are a host of other modern indults and permissions that clearly demonstrate otherwise. Do you believe that receiving Communion in the hand is just as good or the same as on the tongue? That altar girls are just as good as having altar boys (think priesthood!)? Or that the priest praying facing the people (versus populum) is the equivalent as the priest praying facing east (ad orientem)? For the latter, Pope Benedict himself (while still a Cardinal) wrote extensively explaining the problems with versus populum worship saying that the people then become the focus of the priest, and the priest becomes the focus of the people, thereby creating–in his words–“a self-enclosed circle” that no longer looks out towards the transcendent Lord (Spirit of the Liturgy).

Interestingly, the new rite of exorcism was composed by a group that had no experience with exorcisms at all. Here is Fr Amorth’s explanation in an interview:

“-Amorth: The statements contained in the new Rite … are the fruit of ignorance and inexperience.
-Paci: But wasn’t it compiled by experts?
-Amorth: By no means, no. In these past ten years, two commissions have worked on the Rite … I can say with certainty that no member of either commission has ever performed an exorcism or witnessed one. No member has even the faintest idea of what an exorcism is. There lies the error, the original sin of this Rite. No one who assisted with it was an expert on exorcism.”

As always I suggest reading the full context of the interview, which will help you get an even clearer idea of what he is saying: vaticans.org/index.php?/archives/61-An-interview-with-the-Vaticans-chief-excorcist,-Father-Gabriele.html

Had the authors of this new (much more ecumenically friendly) rite of exorcism consulted with the exorcists themselves, the experts in the field, they would have then been much more informed and likely would not have dropped that Latin at all. The commission that revised the rite did not make it in a way that no longer works at all, and certainly demons can still be cast out through use of the new rite in the vernacular tongue; however, the point is that the priest with the most experience performing this rite in the entire world has determined that Latin is more effective.

The point of all this that just because the Church permits something does not de facto make it the most effective means of doing it or invariably equal in all respects to all other options.
 
So because the Church permits an option you believe it is therefore automatically **the equivalent and just as beneficial and effective as the traditional practice? There are a host of other modern indults and permissions that clearly demonstrate otherwise. Do you believe that receiving Communion in the hand is just as good or the same as **on the tongue? That altar girls are **just as good as **having altar boys (think priesthood!)? Or that the priest praying facing the people (versus populum) is **the equivalent **as the priest praying facing east (ad orientem)? For the latter, Pope Benedict himself (while still a Cardinal) wrote extensively explaining the problems with versus populum worship saying that the people then become the focus of the priest, and the priest becomes the focus of the people, thereby creating–in his words–“a self-enclosed circle” that no longer looks out towards the transcendent Lord (Spirit of the Liturgy).

The point of all this that just because the Church permits something does not de facto make it **the most effective **means of doing it or invariably equal in all respects to all other options.
This is why I have asked twice now for an explanation of the term “efficacious” (or effective) in regards to the lanuage issue. There is a lot of comparison of Curch practices here which is meaningless to a lot of people unless the desired end result of “effectiveness” is understood . What exactly are you meaning when you say “more effective” or “as good as”? Are we looking for an individual result, like feelings, empowerment, or emotions? Or a quantity of grace, or an enhanced channel of communication with God? I would like to know where you are coming from.

For instance, I may say a knife is a more effective tool to use on a watermelon than an M-80firecracker. A firecracker is not just as good as a knife. By effective I mean:: if I use the knife, the watermelon comes out in edible pieces and is more manageable to eat and the process is a lot less messy. By effective I mean:: the knife gets me to the promised land of delicious edible water melon, the firecracker does not, it is not -as good as- the knife.
 
The claim, “Latin prayers are more effective in driving away the demonic” is questionable.
I’m a little skeptical at the claim myself but isn’t the use of vernacular a convenience the devil loves because he loves laziness? 😉
 
For instance, I may say a knife is a more effective tool to use on a watermelon than an M-80firecracker. A firecracker is not just as good as a knife. By effective I mean:: if I use the knife, the watermelon comes out in edible pieces and is more manageable to eat and the process is a lot less messy. By effective I mean:: the knife gets me to the promised land of delicious edible water melon, the firecracker does not, it is not -as good as- the knife.
Another reason this is needed is that it is a subjective thing.

In your example the knife is more effective because of the outcome you want while for me the M-80 is more effective because of the outcome I want which is a loud noise with a widely dispersed mess.
 
This is why I have asked twice now for an explanation of the term “efficacious” (or effective) in regards to the lanuage issue. There is a lot of comparison of Curch practices here which is meaningless to a lot of people unless the desired end result of “effectiveness” is understood . What exactly are you meaning when you say “more effective” or “as good as”? Are we looking for an individual result, like feelings, empowerment, or emotions? Or a quantity of grace, or an enhanced channel of communication with God? I would like to know where you are coming from.
Effectiveness is referring to the end desired to be produced. Here are two of the specific contexts in which the word has been used on this thread:
  1. The Latin language being*** “***a most effective bond, binding the Church of today with that of the past and of the future in wonderful continuity” (Pope John XXIII,
    Apostolic Constitution , 1962).
  2. “The use of the Latin language prevailing in a great part of the Church affords at once an imposing sign of unity and an effective safeguard against the corruption of true doctrine” (Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, 1947).
  3. The Latin language being more effective than a vulgar tongue in driving away the demonic, which has been demonstrated through expert testimony.
(If there was another usage of this word on this thread that you would like to discuss please point me to the specific reference.)

If someone could care less about any of the results produced from Latin, then in that person’s mind it would not be “effective” since he does not desire to obtain those ends. Obviously if someone could care less about being united with the pope, the faithful, and many saints throughout history, then that issue should be address with that individual before praying in Latin will really make complete sense. But if one does desire that end, then, interestingly, Pope John XXIII declared that Latin is “a most effective” means of doing so. You can’t really get any more effective than that. I think the popes’ words speak volumes when we read closely and pay attention. Again please read the context! It will help demonstrate that the benefits of praying in Latin are both real and undeniable.
 
Another reason this is needed is that it is a subjective thing.

In your example the knife is more effective because of the outcome you want while for me the M-80 is more effective because of the outcome I want which is a loud noise with a widely dispersed mess.
If someone’s goal is to not participate more fully in their bond and union with Rome and the saints throughout the Church’s history, and if he doesn’t want an added sense of awe and the sacred in his prayers, then yes praying in Latin in that case would be less “effective” for that person . Obviously Latin also does not facilitate a “Jesus is my homeboy” kind of mentality either, so it also would not help anyone attain any such nonsensical goals, and obviously such persons would think it to be useless and a waste of time since it’s not going to help them produce their liberally minded agenda.

If we accept the Church’s teaching on Latin, then that means we accept that Latin accomplishes the effects which the Church says it accomplishes.

For some, Latin may be difficult more than for others, but that labor of love can obviously bear much fruit. I’ve seen this happen in the lives of others who have struggled much at first with the language, and now they would not fathom their lives without it. I’ve also seen others who are able to pick it up fairly easily. Everyone’s aptitude for language is different, but I think we should keep in mind a great motivational teaching “to whom much is given much will be required.”
 
For those of you who are interested in praying in Latin, this site has hundreds of prayers (probably, I haven;t actually counted them, there’s a lot anyway). The easiest way to navigate is to click the ‘table of contents’ button and then they’re all nicely organised by theme.
Thank you! The “other links of interest” link from the homepage is amazing! what a find.👍
 
IMO, in this speech a few things seem to be promoted – in regards to learning our prayers in Latin. When a special occasion may occur with the faithful of many languages – we can find unity in praying together in Latin. It also can help us gain a sense of history of the Church. A history that is unbroken. Ongoing…
I’ve experienced this sense of unity myself. When I went to Mass in France, I was entirely lost for the first two months if I did not have my French edition of Magnificat to follow along with the Mass. There were quite a few disconcerting moments of “OK, what do I say next?” – as in “what set of words come next?” and not “how do I say this in French?” I can’t explain the feeling. 🤷

But when we started to say some prayers in Latin. . . . it was amazing. It didn’t matter that I was an American or that they were French. We were all Roman Catholics, praying in the same language, albeit with different accents. THAT is why the Holy Father insists that Roman Catholics should know at least a few prayers in Latin. 😃
 
I’m a little skeptical at the claim myself but isn’t the use of vernacular a convenience the devil loves because he loves laziness? 😉
Jesus must be really lazy then for using Aramaic all the time.
 
I’m a little skeptical at the claim myself but isn’t the use of vernacular a convenience the devil loves because he loves laziness? 😉
Even in jest this is a highly offensive statement. In it you are saying that you know enough about a persons life to determine that what their life is full of is not sufficient and therefore it must be due to a character flaw that they do not learn another language, in this case Latin.

I wish I could say that I am astounded by this point of view but alas is seems to be par for the course here.
 
As I noted, I have found a few of his books interesting. Yet, with all due respect to Fr. Amorth he is known to make few sensational claims over the years. It’s possible he utilizes exaggeration to make his point(s)?
The New Oxford Review had an interesting take on the 1614 rite back in 2010. Unfortunately this is a subscription article but if you PM me, I can fill you in on some of the main points that it’s missing here.

newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=0410-euteneuer
 
Even in jest this is a highly offensive statement. In it you are saying that you know enough about a persons life to determine that what their life is full of is not sufficient and therefore it must be due to a character flaw that they do not learn another language…
Could be but I’ve read comments that insisting on having everything only in your own language is both arrogant and ignorant. Perhaps one of the reasons Americans rank so low in reading comprehension?
 
Could be but I’ve read comments that insisting on having everything only in your own language is both arrogant and ignorant. Perhaps one of the reasons Americans rank so low in reading comprehension?
Maybe it is just the Americans. Because we have a long list of great English writers and I don’t think they don’t know any language aside from English. Probably a few words here and there of other languages but not enough to say they are fluent in a second language.

Of you can just blame the low reading comprehension on the internet and text generation.
 
Even in jest this is a highly offensive statement. In it you are saying that you know enough about a persons life to determine that what their life is full of is not sufficient and therefore it must be due to a character flaw that they do not learn another language, in this case Latin.

I wish I could say that I am astounded by this point of view but alas is seems to be par for the course here.
It is quite amazing, and shows a fundamental lack undestanding of what prayer really is, or what it can become as one progresses.

-Tim-
 
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