Praying in Latin

[una_fides]

I am new to these forums so if this is a question someone has asked before , please indulge me… I have recently refound my Catholic faith because of the Tradition movement of the SSPX. Prayers have become new and alive for me! I am learning to pray the rosary in latin right now… Has anyone else begun doing their prayers in latin here and does it move you as it does me? I am so thankful for this site and for all who have stuck their necks out to keep the true Catholic faith alive during these years of misguided teachings and morals…

Welcome. I’m glad to hear you are taking your faith more seriously now. God bless you on your walk with Him. I can honestly say that from my experience, prayer in Latin elevates my mind and soul to things of God in amazing and mystical ways. It also helps to know that when I’m praying in Latin I’m participating in the life of the Church, her history, and her traditions that unify me with not only Rome but with all those saints throughout the ages that prayed in the very same words in the very same language. I could say so much more, but I would probably just be repeating many of the things that I’ve already repeated many times on this thread. God bless and stick with it! Btw, I pray for SSPX in my daily Latin rosary intentions! Hopefully there will be a reunification soon!

 

[una_fides]

And the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics use the vernacular. Protestants also use the vernacular.
Doesn’t this show something as well?
For a period the Latin Church used the vernacular, first Greek and then Latin. I believe it is an aberration that the Latin Church continued to use Latin when it was no longer the vernacular.

Sounds like you are essentially asking the question, why did the Latin Church retain Latin for so long and not open up to the vernacular languages? I think the papal writings on this matter alone speak volumes as for the reasons. Rather than just repeat and recite them, I’d like to point out a few practical reasons. First, there is the unitive effect, the creation of a certain bond among all Latin rite Catholics who can pray together in the same language throughout the world and understand and feel at home.

A certain practical application also exists in preserving the truth not only concerning Church teachings being issued precisely in one unchanging language but also on a practical liturgical level. At the majority of parishes in my area, liturgical abuse runs rampant. Priests are constantly changing the words at mass as if it were a show for the people and the priest is the main attraction who “livens” things up by dialoguing with them through the prayers. The canon of the mass is changed even down to the words leading up to consecration. The priests in a very casual tone, standing erect, and looking right at the people say such things as “Jesus took bread, gave it to this friends and said, take this all of you and eat it…” (as the priest waves the host around to show everyone what he is talking about). I’m sure so many of us have witnessed such abuses and possibly even worse (I know I could write volumes concerning the abuses I’ve witnessed), but the point is that if the liturgy were still in Latin, this would not be happening! Obviously ad orientem worship would help a great deal as well!

 

[una_fides]

We still regard them as a false and heretical religion.

Amen Straight talk like that is hard to come by now a days.

So why would we want to copy anything they are doing?

The Catholic Church is not copying Islam. We were praying in Latin long before their religion even existed!

 

[ConstantineTG]

They can certainly read along in their missals. I know mine contains more excellent descriptions of what takes place at Mass than in all the homilies I’ve ever heard in my entire life.

A friend of mine pointed out that those who attend the Traditional Latin Mass often tend to pay more attention to the Mass as they follow along actively in their missals as opposed to what he has experienced and witnessed in vernacular only masses where many just go through the motions and don’t give much thought at all to what they are saying. I’ve witnessed this phenomena as well at TLM’s where everyone seems to be paying so much attention to what is taking place.

I think there is also something to say as to the nature of Latin itself as having a certain dignity to it that elevates the mind automatically to things of God.

“Latin … through its dignified character elicit a profound sense of the Eucharistic Mystery” (Pope John Paul II, Dominicae Cenae 10, 1980).

This language is not used for anything else other than this purpose, and it was also consecrated in a sense through its inscription on the holy Cross itself. It makes sense why experienced exorcists report the demons reacting so hatefully to its usage.

In that quote I was talking about Tagalog, not Latin.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t know. They could be converts. Malphono would probably know more.

The Church in Antioch had Greeks from the Apostolic times. Arabic only became the vernacular when Muslims took control of the area.

 

[Melchior_1]

but the point is that if the liturgy were still in Latin, this would not be happening! Obviously ad orientem worship would help a great deal as well!

You speak with such certainty on such a subjective matter. People who want to “change things up” are going to “change things up” regardless of the language or Form used. Using a different language does nothing to stop deviations or abuses.

I could say Pig Latin or Swahili have less of a chance for abuses, should we use those?

 

[jeannetherese]

I just want to be Ukrainian Catholic, and sometimes the faith and the culture is inseprable. And sometimes my frustration is I want to live the Ukrainian Catholic faith and tradition, but people there are just there for cultural reasons. There is a huge disconnect.

For the Latin Mass communities, it is all about just the language of the Mass. The prevailing culture is the culture of the land where the parish is in.

Hello, CTG. I so appreciate your contribution to the thread here. As I read your concerns about wanting to live your faith and tradition, I thought about the increasing call for the Latin mass in my area.
I wonder if this call might involve more than just a language?
Perhaps the call might reach beyond the culture of the land in which my Archdiocese resides, back to a time in which East and West reached towards each other.
I see the Latin mass as reaching back to a time before the schism. I pray that as we (Latin Rite Catholics) reclaim the heritage of our faith, we may be able to reach out from a more easily recognizably shared ground to our Eastern brothers and sisters. May God’s will be done. Amen.

 

[Jessicalopez12]

I don’t think so because all languages are given by god itself so why latin?

 

[ProVobis]

The Church in Antioch had Greeks from the Apostolic times. Arabic only became the vernacular when Muslims took control of the area.

But the Maronite liturgy I attended had the consecration in Syriac, hardly a modern vernacular.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t think so because all languages are given by god itself so why latin?

Asked the Reformers.

 

[ProVobis]

Using a different language does nothing to stop deviations or abuses.

No, but it does change the meaning, the poetry, and the nuances of the form used.

I can read Hamlet or Merchant of Venice in Polish, understand the plots, but Shakespeare isn’t just about plots, is he? He chose his words carefully, to be appreciated exactly in the form written, not Cliff’s Notes or translations. Same with the Church-prescribed Latin prayers. Or Church documents and the Latin Vulgate, for that matter. But we have people believing that God created the universe in English, so what does one do?

 

[TrueLight]

No, but it does change the meaning, the poetry, and the nuances of the form used.

I can read Hamlet or Merchant of Venice in Polish, understand the plots, but Shakespeare isn’t just about plots, is he? He chose his words carefully, to be appreciated exactly in the form written, not Cliff’s Notes or translations. Same with the Church-prescribed Latin prayers. Or Church documents and the Latin Vulgate, for that matter. But we have people believing that God created the universe in English, so what does one do?

Good point.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Good point.

Indeed, which brings the conversation around to the challenge with translations. But we need not go there …

 

[Rich_C]

You speak with such certainty on such a subjective matter. People who want to “change things up” are going to “change things up” regardless of the language or Form used. Using a different language does nothing to stop deviations or abuses.

I could say Pig Latin or Swahili have less of a chance for abuses, should we use those?

I don’t think you’ve thought this post through. We’re talking about a strictly liturgical language, not simply a different vernacular, so you’re making a false connection.

It would be much more difficult for a priest to ad lib in Latin at the altar. For one, his fluency may not extend to speaking ability as the Church uses it almost only as a written or read language. Secondly, the laity would still generally have missal with the actual words of the Mass in Latin and their vernacular, reading along, and would be unlikely to understand a Latin phrase they had never heard before (hearing comprehension only comes with time).

So I think his certainty is well placed and not subjective.

 

[Megan7]

New website for praying in Latin full of countless prayers and resources:
sites.google.com/site/prayinglatin/

Explains why to pray in Latin, how to pray in Latin, and has sections with many prayers, meditations, as well as audio. Definitely worth checking out and forwarding to anyone who may have interest!

Thank you.
God bless

 

[Melchior_1]

I don’t think you’ve thought this post through. We’re talking about a strictly liturgical language, not simply a different vernacular, so you’re making a false connection.

It would be much more difficult for a priest to ad lib in Latin at the altar. For one, his fluency may not extend to speaking ability as the Church uses it almost only as a written or read language. Secondly, the laity would still generally have missal with the actual words of the Mass in Latin and their vernacular, reading along, and would be unlikely to understand a Latin phrase they had never heard before (hearing comprehension only comes with time).

So I think his certainty is well placed and not subjective.

People can still change words and actions. Isn’t why people say “say the red, do the black”? Saying “they’ll just read off the page and do what the book said” can be applied to any language. Further, not knowing the language could lead to people improvising simply because they don’t know what they are saying.

It takes closing off your mind something fierce to think that a mere Form or language will protect from abuses. If youtube and the Internets were around back in the day, I’m sure we’d see a whole bunch of stories.

Interesting though how you’re using “the laity won’t understand, so this is for the best”. Don’t we want educated laity?

 

[clem456]

Interesting though how you’re using “the laity won’t understand, so this is for the best”. Don’t we want educated laity?

Ther laity will be educated whether we (Church) want it or not. The question is, what will they absorb? From who? Communication is instantaneous (hate cliches but it’s true).We fill ourselves with communication. Vatican 2 was brilliant in addressing this issue. This is one reason why use of the vernacular is important, or should not be ignored, or pre-empted by usage of Latiin. It gives one more ready access to understanding the Mass, and facilitates teaching, and participating in both, which is half the battle in understanding them.

 

[ProVobis]

Interesting though how you’re using “the laity won’t understand, so this is for the best”.

More interesting is how you managed to completely misinterpret what Rich C said.

 

[Rich_C]

People can still change words and actions. Isn’t why people say “say the red, do the black”?

Yes, abuses in the area of actions would be no different in a Latin Mass, but I contest the word part of that argument; see below.

Saying “they’ll just read off the page and do what the book said” can be applied to any language.

Absolutely and my wife always carries a hand missal, even at the OF daily Mass, but anedotally speak, I see most people carrying a hand missal at the TLM and few opening one at the OF. Would you agree? This is not an absolute advantage of the use of Latin, but a strong correlation which is not arbitrary (people are just more likely to want aids when not using their vernacular). If the use of hand missals was just as common at the OF, I would concede the point.

Further, not knowing the language could lead to people improvising simply because they don’t know what they are saying.

I couldn’t disagree more. Improvisation comes from fluency, not unfamiliarity.

It takes closing off your mind something fierce to think that a mere Form or language will protect from abuses. If youtube and the Internets were around back in the day, I’m sure we’d see a whole bunch of stories.

Respectfully, I think only a close-minded person could completely deny my reasoning, above.

Interesting though how you’re using “the laity won’t understand, so this is for the best”. Don’t we want educated laity?

I never wrote what’s in your quotation marks, that’s disingenuous. This is what I wrote:

Secondly, the laity would still generally have missal with the actual words of the Mass in Latin and their vernacular, reading along, and would be unlikely to understand a Latin phrase they had never heard before (hearing comprehension only comes with time).

I think your bias is showing, or you haven’t bothered to read me posts before you reply.
Let me relate my own experience: I go to the TLM every Sunday and by now I understand most of the ordinary of the Mass without my missal; I even pick up on what gospel readings I’m hearing just by knowing the stories and hearing unique key words. Buut if I heard some made up prayer it would mean little to me (I might pick out individual words but not catch the whole meaning) and that’s good because it means that only what the Church wants me to take from Mass will stick (i.e. what is repeated heard at every Mass because its supposed to be there), not some one-off, ad libbed prayer of dubious value.

I’d welcome a real argument from you anytime, Melchior but I’m tired of replying to half-thought-out statements you shoot from the hip.

 

[Melchior_1]

Absolutely and my wife always carries a hand missal, even at the OF daily Mass, but anedocatally speak, I see most people carrying a hand missal at the TLM and few opening one at the OF. Would you agree? This is not an absolute advantage of the use of Latin, but a strong correlation which is not arbitrary (people are just more likely to want aids when not using their vernacular).

We have Missals in all of our pews, so I see people reading the missal to follow along all of the time. The question at this point becomes listening with your ears versus listening with your eyes.

I couldn’t disagree more. Improvisation comes from fluency, not unfamiliarity.

Bluffing and The Indy Ploy are both common things in which improvisation can come from.

Respectfully, I think only a close-minded person could completely deny my reasoning, above.

Respectfully, I think only a close-minded person would see how saying that a Form or language is free from abuse. If it was the norm, it would also be the norm for abuses.

I think your bias is showing, or you haven’t bothered to read me posts before you reply. Let me relate my own experience: I go to the TLM every Sunday and by now I understand most of the ordinary of the Mass without my missal, but if I heard some made up prayer it would mean little to me (I might pick out individual words but not catch the whole meaning) and that’s good because it means that only what the Church wants me to take from Mass will stick, not some ad libbed prayer of dubious value.

Essentially, correct me if I’m wrong here, you’re saying “ignorance is bliss”. If you can’t tell if someone is making stuff up, then you can’t get scandalized by it?

You’d think the Church wouldn’t mind you getting everything you can out of the Mass, and one way is to reflect on the words the priest is saying by listening and understanding.

I’d welcome a real argument from you anytime, Melchior but I’m tired of replying to half-thought-out statement you shoot from the hip.

My arguments are quite real, and they stem from human nature and systematic reasoning; if someone wants to make changes, changes will be made. Form and language won’t stop them. And whatever is the norm, that’s where most of the problems would be due to simply having more people and having a higher exposure.