Praying in Latin

[LilyM]

What you said doesn’t even make any sense. Seriously. I presented an argument that cited the most credible first hand testimony concerning demons’ particular hatred towards the Latin language as well as logical reasons based on papal teachings to support my claim. I never even presented an opposing argument to this one, but obviously the opposition would simply state as you did that “the devil doesn’t care about Latin.”

Please point out the specific straw man that you claimed I built. Constantine, if you want to have an honest debate here then you need to either present evidence to support your claim or then be man enough (assuming you are a man) to admit that you misspoke or made a mistake. I mean no disrespect when I say this but I honestly feel as if I’m being met with thoughtless push backs rather than any well reasoned response. I clearly demonstrated you were presenting a straw man argument and your come back rather than defending your specific claim was to essentially say “no you are,” and then of course providing no support to the false assertion.

Put it this way - if the devil can appear as an angel of light, then he can certainly pretend to hate Latin if it suits his purposes. And it would serve his purposes admirably if it helped to turn those exorcists’ attention way from other things which he hates even more … fasting? The Rosary? The Holy Name of Jesus and the blessed name of the Virgin Mary? Catholics who live in love and charity rather than quibbling among each other about language? It bears
thinking about.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

I’ve heard the Hallelujah Chorus from the Messiah much more often at Mass than I’ve heard Gregorian Chant there (which is a total of zero times). And before you start whining again, I absolutely love Gregorian chant - and own several CDs of it, unlike the Messiah, which I don’t, preferring to hear it live.

And I’m not citing them as isolated instances. There is a reasonably sizeable genre of sacred music of the baroque era written in vernacular languages - oratorios and such - of which they are one two examples. A lot of it quite stunning.

I see. So because there are some good examples of vernacular music, and you have heard some at Mass, the vast body of Latin Hymns is, I don’t know, somehow to be deprecated because of that? Even though vernacular hymns to the standard of Handel’s Messiah are not at all standard at vernacular masses?

And yes, I believe you’ve heard Gregorian Chant zero times at Mass. So too have most Catholics, up until recently.

Chant is simple music. You need a cantor who can read it and sing on key and the rest can join in, reading the simple notation. It’s got the history. It expresses the Faith clearly. Time has distilled it. The melodies are often exquisite. Latin is a musical language.

It’s time the Church returned to enforcing some standards at Mass. I do think that if priests said the Tridentine Mass more they would get a better sense of what it is to be a priest of Christ the King and thus feel more empowered to put their foot down about what occurs in their churches.

But I guess the experiment must run its course, so everyone can see very clearly what happens when you let populism govern all. This will hopefully inoculate a reduced Church against further experimentation for a few generations.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Put it this way - if the devil can appear as an angel of light, then he can certainly pretend to hate Latin if it suits his purposes. And it would serve his purposes admirably if it helped to turn those exorcists’ attention way from other things which he hates even more … fasting? The Rosary? The Holy Name of Jesus and the blessed name of the Virgin Mary? Catholics who live in love and charity rather than quibbling among each other about language? It bears
thinking about.

Lily, you’re really reaching here. That demons hate Latin prayers is something exorcists mention in their accounts.

One of the things that have made me doubt the wisdom of the post-1960’s changes is that Somebody thought it was necessary to re-write the rite of exorcism and the book of blessings. Like, demons were having trouble understanding them?

The kindest thing I can say is that it’s a case of bureaucracy let run untethered.

 

[OraLabora]

the vast body of Latin Hymns is, I don’t know, somehow to be deprecated because of that? Even though vernacular hymns to the standard of Handel’s Messiah are not at all standard at vernacular masses?

You surely mean the vast body of Latin antiphons. The body of hymns isn’t so vast and is mostly limited to the Divine Office; they all fit into a book about an inch and a half thick at best. And you realize of course that popular vernacular hymns pre-date Vatican II I assume…

And yes, I believe you’ve heard Gregorian Chant zero times at Mass. So too have most Catholics, up until recently.

I hear it every Sunday. I could hear it every day if I worked in the right direction. Gregorian chant has had a continual presence in my area since 1912 when the abbey was founded. We don’t hear it often enough though especially in parishes.

Chant is simple music. You need a cantor who can read it and sing on key and the rest can join in, reading the simple notation. It’s got the history. It expresses the Faith clearly. Time has distilled it. The melodies are often exquisite. Latin is a musical language.

This may be true of some of the settings for the Ordinary. However there’s a reason why, typically, the Introit, the Gradual, the Alleluia verse, the Offertory and the communion antiphon are usually only sung only by the choir, with a small schola handling the more melismatic verses in particular in the Gradual, Alleluia and Offertory.

It’s time the Church returned to enforcing some standards at Mass.

This I agree with completely.

I do think that if priests said the Tridentine Mass more they would get a better sense of what it is to be a priest of Christ the King and thus feel more empowered to put their foot down about what occurs in their churches.

This I don’t agree with. Poorly disciplined priests (and parishioners) will remain poorly disciplined priests and parishioners regardless of the form. The reason the EF works so well is that it is in the hands of disciplined clergy determined to preserve it.

 

[justme]

Seeing how everyone likes to point these out I will do so now.

It’s time the Church returned to enforcing some standards at Mass.

Strawman

 

[ProVobis]

… Poorly disciplined priests (and parishioners) will remain poorly disciplined priests and parishioners regardless of the form. The reason the EF works so well is that it is in the hands of disciplined clergy determined to preserve it.

This may be short-lived if there is a repeat of what happened in the 50’s and 60’s. There have been rumors of some significant changes. I don’t know much more than this, though.

 

[ProVobis]

I’ve heard the Hallelujah Chorus from the Messiah much more often at Mass than I’ve heard Gregorian Chant there (which is a total of zero times). And before you start whining again, I absolutely love Gregorian chant - and own several CDs of it, unlike the Messiah, which I don’t, preferring to hear it live.

As beautiful as it is, I cringe when I hear them struggling with “shoulder” at that “For Unto Us A Child Is Born.” English seems to have problems stretching out certain syllables over many notes, which Italian or Latin, for example, don’t have many problems with.

 

[ProVobis]

No, what I said is true. St. John Chrysostom wrote 4 prayers for exorcism. Are you telling me they are useless because he is Greek and wrote in Greek?

Personally, I’d prefer more Greek in the Mass (and even the readings) than English.

 

[una_fides]

No, what I said is true. St. John Chrysostom wrote 4 prayers for exorcism. Are you telling me they are useless because he is Greek and wrote in Greek?

lol. I’m sorry this is just funny to read, and I’m wondering if you even read what my posts say. I admit they can be a little long at times but seriously I’m at the point where I’m going to have to start quoting myself. If you want to know what I think about other languages other than Latin, I have explained many times. Please re-read those posts.

Regarding Greek, I think it is a great language. It’s one of the three that were nailed to the Cross and is also like Latin therefore mystically and intimately united with the Holy Sacrifice at Calvary and also like Latin is most especially suited for the celebration of the sacred liturgy. The Greek language also has its own unique historical and geographical connections while the Latin language is tied to the Western Roman Rite and also the papacy.

Try not to look at the benefits of praying in Latin from the perspective of a “my language is much better than yours” kind of argument but rather in a sense of that they are both languages with their own set of benefits they offer to the Church from their historical usage and also through their own liturgical connections. Obviously you’re not going to argue that Greek unites one with Rome any more than one could argue that Latin unites one with the Greek liturgy. They are unique and different, and this thread is about the specific benefits of praying in Latin. There is no need to attack a unique unifying aspect of another Rite. You should be happy for those celebrating those aspects of their tradition rather than trying to degrade or villify them. :tsktsk:

 

[LilyM]

As beautiful as it is, I cringe when I hear them struggling with “shoulder” at that “For Unto Us A Child Is Born.” English seems to have problems stretching out certain syllables over many notes, which Italian or Latin, for example, don’t have many problems with.

That’s just a long ‘o’ sound, easy as you please. Singing the word ‘excelsis’’, on the other hand … Or even worse the phrase ‘resurrexit sicut dixit’ :hypno:

 

[una_fides]

Put it this way - if the devil can appear as an angel of light, then he can certainly pretend to hate Latin if it suits his purposes. And it would serve his purposes admirably if it helped to turn those exorcists’ attention way from other things which he hates even more … fasting? The Rosary? The Holy Name of Jesus and the blessed name of the Virgin Mary? Catholics who live in love and charity rather than quibbling among each other about language? It bears
thinking about.

For the record, you are certainly facilitating the quibbling about language here. I’m also still waiting on responses to the various questions I asked you in previous posts, such as regarding papal teachings on Latin. Don’t know if you possibly missed those?

Your post above is purely your own speculation to try to think of some way around the testimony of the exorcists that has been cited.

Regarding fasting, the rosary, the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary, and other devotions, they are all great and amazing! I could sing their praises until the cows come home. I just wish you would be willing to admit the same thing regarding the Latin language and that you would at least agree with what popes have taught about it.

“Latin must be esteemed 'a treasure … of incomparable worth”
(Pope John XXIII,VeterumSapientia, 1962).
sites.google.com/site/prayinglatin/papal-teachings

 

[LilyM]

For the record, you are certainly facilitating the quibbling about language here. I’m also still waiting on responses to the various questions I asked you in previous posts, such as regarding papal teachings on Latin. Don’t know if you possibly missed those?

Your post above is purely your own speculation to try to think of some way around the testimony of the exorcists that has been cited.

Regarding fasting, the rosary, the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary, and other devotions, they are all great and amazing! I could sing their praises until the cows come home. I just wish you would be willing to admit the same thing regarding the Latin language and that you would at least agree with what popes have taught about it.

“Latin must be esteemed 'a treasure … of incomparable worth”
(Pope John XXIII,VeterumSapientia, 1962).
sites.google.com/site/prayinglatin/papal-teachings

Of course the Popes have praised Latin to the skies - so have they in similarly florid language praised the institution of the priesthood to the skies. AND the institution of marriage. AND the religious life. AND the Rosary. AND the Sacred Heart devotion.

People are no more all obliged to employ Latin - in liturgy or elsewhere - because of this Papal praise than they are to all run off and join the priesthood, or marry, or enter the religious life. Or pray the Rosary or make the nine First Fridays. And one can fully share the Papal enthusiasm for all of these things without doing all of them.

In fact some of us not only should not but CANNOT become priests. Or religious. Or marry. Some of us can do none of these things for various reasons. What makes you think we are any more universally even able, let alone obliged, to use Latin?

 

[una_fides]

What makes you think we are any more universally even able, let alone obliged, to use Latin?

Who are you arguing against here that’s saying that every single human being must learn Latin?

No one said you personally are “obliged to,” but on the other hand…

“It is not so much excellent to know Latin, as it is a shame not to know it” [Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine, quam turpe nescire]” (Pope John Paul II quoting Cicero in defense of Latin).

“Pope Benedict XVI urged Catholics around the world to memorize the most common Catholic prayers in Latin.”
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0503776.htm

While no one is or has argued that there is any obligation forcing every Catholic to learn to pray in Latin, certainly there are some benefits that would apply to everyone universally as it certainly does unite people together who pray in that same language as a particular bond and also unites people to the papacy. These are things that the Latin language itself is able to do when used faithfully in prayer.

Your argument about vocation does not fit since one is called to a vocation and once one has been ordained a priest for example he cannot marry, and as you pointed out there are limitations as some people cannot become priests (women for example), etc, etc. No one, however, has any restrictions on praying in Latin other than his own natural limitations, and in those cases, I’m certain that if someone has the right intentions he would still get credit for trying

 

[ProVobis]

That’s just a long ‘o’ sound, easy as you please. Singing the word ‘excelsis’’, on the other hand … Or even worse the phrase ‘resurrexit sicut dixit’ :hypno:

It’s the last syllable, not the “o.” But that’s just an example. Otherwise I do enjoy Handel, don’t get me wrong. His instrumental music is very unique and festive.

And true, you can’t hold a “d” or a “t” too well, not in extended chant anyway, but you can hold an “s” or an “l.” Still, most letters in Latin are pronounced and in one way, while English has many silent letters and peculiar dipthong shifts (“rough,” “through” “though,” “plough,” “ought,” “cough,” for example.) Very difficult to learn these distinctions, actually.

Reference: preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Introductio/Pronunciatio.html

By the way, I’m not a fan of Gregorian chant myself but as part of the Mass, I feel it adds much dignity and reverence. Syriac chant is pretty cool too.

 

[una_fides]

I’d like to clarify that last post. When I said that no one is obligated to pray in Latin, I was referring specifically to in their private devotions, but in the Latin Rite liturgy, if one wishes to be faithful to Vatican II, he should promote the retention of Latin in the liturgy and therefore would be advocating in some sense for every Latin Rite Catholic to pray in Latin, at least at Mass anyway.

“Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”
“steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them”
Vatican II, *** ***SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM

 

[ProVobis]

“Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”

Most treat this as “anything but Latin is to be used in the Latin rites.”

 

[ConstantineTG]

Personally, I’d prefer more Greek in the Mass (and even the readings) than English.

I’d agree that having the Scriptures in the original Greek would be awesome, but there is no way anyone will get what is meant there. Let’s leave the Greek to the great exegetes of our time to explain to us.

 

[ConstantineTG]

lol. I’m sorry this is just funny to read, and I’m wondering if you even read what my posts say. I admit they can be a little long at times but seriously I’m at the point where I’m going to have to start quoting myself. If you want to know what I think about other languages other than Latin, I have explained many times. Please re-read those posts.

Regarding Greek, I think it is a great language. It’s one of the three that were nailed to the Cross and is also like Latin therefore mystically and intimately united with the Holy Sacrifice at Calvary and also like Latin is most especially suited for the celebration of the sacred liturgy. The Greek language also has its own unique historical and geographical connections while the Latin language is tied to the Western Roman Rite and also the papacy.

Try not to look at the benefits of praying in Latin from the perspective of a “my language is much better than yours” kind of argument but rather in a sense of that they are both languages with their own set of benefits they offer to the Church from their historical usage and also through their own liturgical connections. Obviously you’re not going to argue that Greek unites one with Rome any more than one could argue that Latin unites one with the Greek liturgy. They are unique and different, and this thread is about the specific benefits of praying in Latin. There is no need to attack a unique unifying aspect of another Rite. You should be happy for those celebrating those aspects of their tradition rather than trying to degrade or villify them. :tsktsk:

Any language is as good as the next, they are all man made and therefore by their own character adds nothing to our faith. A badly written prayer in Latin or Greek or Aramaic is a bad prayer and cannot surpass a well written prayer in English. Its not the language.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Any language is as good as the next, they are all man made and therefore by their own character adds nothing to our faith. A badly written prayer in Latin or Greek or Aramaic is a bad prayer and cannot surpass a well written prayer in English. Its not the language.

So if Latin was once again mandatory at Roman Catholic masses, you wouldn’t mind? After all, “any language is as good as the next”

Other religions see the value in having a language set aside for worship but a tendency in the R.C. Church decided to drop its own, without authority. It’s an act of iconoclasm; thrilling at the time but now we see how reduced our worship is, coupled with all the other changes. Childish hymns at a sacrifice? Gimme a break!

Protestantism, Islam and Progressive Catholicism have this in common: they tend to leave a seeker in a bare room with a preacher and a book and tell him “Now find God”.

That’s what’s going on here. A stripping away and a dumbing down. And then when ignorant people start playing with the host or dancing in church, the whine goes up “We must have more catechesis!”

Of course, some catholics love all this. That’s what’s really going on. There’s a tendency in the Church to de-Romanise her. Problem is, it blends quite nicely into de-Catholicising her.

 

[clem456]

So if Latin was once again mandatory at Roman Catholic masses, you wouldn’t mind? After all, “any language is as good as the next”

Other religions see the value in having a language set aside for worship but a tendency in the R.C. Church decided to drop its own, without authority. It’s an act of iconoclasm; thrilling at the time but now we see** how reduced our worship is**, coupled with all the other changes. **Childish hymns **at a sacrifice? Gimme a break!

Protestantism, Islam and Progressive Catholicism have this in common: they tend to leave a seeker in a bare room with a preacher and a book and tell him “Now find God”.

That’s what’s going on here. A stripping away and a dumbing down. And then when **ignorant people **start playing with the host or dancing in church, the whine goes up “We must have more catechesis!”

Of course, some catholics love all this. That’s what’s really going on. There’s a tendency in the Church to de-Romanise her. Problem is, it blends quite nicely into de-Catholicising her.

Stepping way way way over the line here.