Interestingly enough, the term, ‘meritorius’ is Latin. Meritorius in Latin means to ‘earn money.’ However, as we use the term in English, it’s more likely derived from the Latin term, ‘meritum.’ See more info here:
The please explain to me in a theological way with references to teachings of Fathers, Saints, Confessors, Popes, Patriarchs, Bishops, etc., how the use of a particular language has in our salvation?
Maybe some claims are absurd. The thread is likely to attract many different points of view. As the thread is about Praying in Latin, and the Pope has said that ALL Catholics should learn how to pray in Latin, that’s what I’m gonna go with. If you want to debate about what is meritorius or not, in terms of Latin, that’s not something I’m willing or qualified to do. I’m a simple person, not a theologian. What the Pope says is good enough for me. And praying the common prayers in Latin, as the Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ on earth, has requested, is not really all that difficult. This will be my last post to you on the subject, since the subject seems to upset you.
Theological way? Is moral code a part of theology? I don’t know about the rest of them but Augustine, Aquinas, Ambrose, Jerome and others were very much influenced by Cicero’s writings on moral code, which was adopted by not only the Church but the entire Western civilization, at least until recent years. There have been some translations of Cicero’s works, but they fall far short of what Cicero really said or meant. You just have to know the Latin to be able to read Cicero, who BTW was also a Greek scholar.
Don’t misunderstand me. I did not say that it’s a bad thing. I agree that the absence of charity toward anyone who wants to pray in Latin is unjustifiable.
The Holy Father has requested that we say the common prayers in Latin. It isn’t a sin to NOT say the prayers in Latin, of course.Don’t misunderstand me. I did not say that it’s a bad thing. I agree that the absence of charity toward anyone who wants to pray in Latin is unjustifiable.
If you scroll up, I teach my grade 6 CCD kids all of the common prayers in Latin and the parts of the EF and OF.
In my community, we celebrate mass in Latin and English.
Do we do it to please the pope? No. We do it because it’s part of our tradition. Latin is part of our culture as Catholics. The pope does not require us nor expect us to do things to please him. When he does, he’ll say so. Trust me. He has done so on different occasions, such as on the issue with the Holocaust. Any priest or religious who publicly says anything contrary to what is taught about the Holocaust will find himself at the receiving end of the pope’s ire.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I was trying to say that praying in Latin is something that he recommends strongly, because it’s part of our Catholic culture. But it’s not something about which he will get upset if it’s not done or promoted unlike the Holocaust question. I was making a comparison of what would and would not provoke the pope’s ire. Not praying in Latin is not one of those things that provokes him. He’s too much of a scholar to go down that route. He’ll say something about praying in Latin as an observation, not as an expectation or a mandate.
I don’t think that anyone here has the idea that the Pope is giving a mandate on praying in Latin, or that we have to pray in Latin. He has made a request that the faithful pray the common prayers in Latin. I believe that most Catholics are astute enough to make the distinction between mandate and request. But, as with a lot things on this subforum, many seem to think that accentuating a positive automatically delares a negative of something else. sighI was trying to say that praying in Latin is something that he recommends strongly, because it’s part of our Catholic culture. But it’s not something about which he will get upset if it’s not done or promoted unlike the Holocaust question. I was making a comparison of what would and would not provoke the pope’s ire. Not praying in Latin is not one of those things that provokes him. He’s too much of a scholar to go down that route. He’ll say something about praying in Latin as an observation, not as an expectation or a mandate.
Many people don’t understand Pope Benedict’s manner of speaking. He has two forms that he frequently uses and a third that he rarely uses.
First frequently used are streams of consciousness. He will speak spontaneously as he’s thinking about something.
Second frequently used are observations. He will make an observation of why this would be good or bad.
Third, rarely used, is a command. He rarely commands.
People tend to take everything he says as marching orders. Later, when someone asks him, he’ll say that he did not mean to give such orders.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I’m sure there are a lot of better and more truthful arguments for the use of Latin rather than a distorted view of it. I don’t get why we have to lie or make stuff up just to promote it. Well, what is worse is if we do not think these claims are a lie. Do we really think that our faith is based on such a petty God who could have on his own whim let anyone and everyone into heaven but doesn’t because they don’t belong to a particular religion or that he has a language preference for whom gets into heaven. It is as if heaven is really accessible to all as they are today and the difference on who gets in or not is based on those who impress God based on arbitrary categories such as language used in praying.
So where in this argument of yours says that Latin is meritous towards God? If I need Latin just to be able to read Cicero, how does that get me into heaven? Can’t a Latin scholar translate it for me? Would I be any less of a Christian because I depended on a Latin scholar for that?
What I’d recommend, if you really want to study Cicero (or Homer or Vatican II docs, for that matter) is to do a side-by-side with the Latin or Greek and see if the translation makes sense word-for-word or phrase-by-phrase. I can give you one but I wouldn’t accept it as truth. I’ve seen too many things attributed to Cicero that he had never said. For example, there was something floating all over the internet about balanced budgets. Everyone was accepting it as fact but when pinned down on it, no one could find where Cicero had said anything about it. People tend to get very creative when doing translations. I know, because my step-brother is a professional linguist and tells me how he does it.
But every bishop is a translator of the faith as transmitted through them. Should we all become Evangelicals and Pentecostals and make our own personal interpretation trusting that the Holy Spirit guides each of us personally?
You, being bilingual, should know the answer to this. The faith I’ve been taught, first from Polish priests in Polish and second from American nuns in English, isn’t what I would consider contradictory but let’s just say that I see two different sides of the same faith.
Please tell me where anyone said anything indicating that they personally feel superior for praying in Latin? If you cannot cite a source from something that was specifically said on this thread, then you need to retract your false characterization or admit that you are falsely judging your brother in Christ. This is quite unfortunate that you are resorting to name calling and vilinizing your opposition in order to try to discourage others from praying in Latin or at least to throw water on their fire.
Are you trying to put praying in Latin on the same level as playing frisbee or collecting stamps? Seriously?
I’m not sure why you are so up in arms over the fact that laboring to learn how to pray in Latin with the intention of doing so to please God is meritorious in God’s sight. We don’t do it for the purpose of merit, but in order to please God. Nevertheless, the fact remains that it is a labor of love, and God does give us incentives in Scripture for doing good does he not? “Your reward will be great in heaven” ring a bell?
You made this type of argument earlier, and I do recall pointing out the social justice overtones. Spiritual works of mercy take precedent to the corporal. Thus, one could make the argument that admonishing a sinner is more meritorious than say giving food to the poor (though today one would think the opposite approach has become the new "virtue). Nevertheless, I’m not going to go onto a Franciscan thread that is promoting doing good works for the poor and then try to rain on their parade and reduce their zeal for this great good by trying to point out other things that are more meritorious. Do you see how incredibly insulting that comes across?
Faith in Jesus Christ and cooperation with grace which comes to us through the sacraments is what is going to restore the Church.
So you’re implying:
“We exhort you all to lift up high the torch of Latin which is even today a bond of unity among peoples of all nations” (Pope John Paul II)
Is it somehow prideful to want to promote and exalt the Latin language and its study? In the words of St Thomas: On the contrary.
I said that faith in Jesus Christ and cooperation with the grace which comes to us from the sacraments is what is going to restore the Church. That is what I said.
And that my friend is why habemus papam!
