Praying the Hail Mary

[jpusateri]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

Good morning MLP,

I am surprised you use this verse of Ecclesiastes as if it were true. And you use it repeatedly…

Have you actually read the book?

This chapter in particular is about how everything in the world seems senseless. How, without God, life is empty and meaningless. An absurd cycle of life and death and what does it all mean?

The point of view of the writer is a WORLDLY one! Someone who has no knowledge of the afterlife. It demonstrates how ridiculous the atheist position is.

You cannot use it as a proof text of what the afterlife is like!

Would you support a similar reading of verse 10? No heaven, no hell?

 

[happyseppy]

All brothers and sisters who have posted here,

I believe that all of you who have written many well worded, well thought out, well quoted posts, are in a sense, being pulled in to a fruitless “debate” with someone who is not interested in learning about how Christ really lives and breathes in our Catholic faith. She is not even reading them thoroughly, except to pull out snippets to “counter” with other snippets of scripture. She obviously does not really want to return to her Catholic roots, however poorly formed they were.

I say, do not be tempted to lose charity. It is commendable to want to help someone, and to defend our beautiful Lord and His Church. But neither does this one want to be helped or truly educated, nor is she engaging in a true exchange with any integrity, and she is not succeeding in any real attack that has any substance.

I would not go so far as to say you are wasting your time, and I commend all who have valiantly posted many times, but truly believe it is prayer that is in order here ( yes, rosaries!) for this soul to meet God again in His Church and to encounter His mother in her love for this one and all who do not come to her, for she wants to lead us all home!

God Bless you all and Peace!

 

[tptram]

Thank you all for posting

Reading this thread has help me tremendously
Now I value my rosary even more.

Tak

 

[mercygate]

You mean you open the bible and read it as you are saying the hail Mary?
Personally I can’t read and pray at the same time

It is not uncommon for people to use quotations from Scripture to “set up” the meditation on each decade of the Rosary. When I was beginning to learn the Rosary, I went to Scripture and carefully read the portion of Scripture that each decade focuses on, and THEN I prayed a decade of the Rosary: slowly, gently, immersing myself in the sense of the mystery.

One of the best books on praying the Rosary is by a non-Catholic, Robert Llewellyn. It describes how to pray the Rosary without getting sucked into nattering repetition. The title is *A Doorway to Silence: the Contemplative Use of the Rosary. *

 

[mercygate]

Actually I memorized the Bible passages before, and I just think of them in my mind while I am praying the Rosary. But you can also read along in the Bible, if you haven’t got them memorized yet - there’s nothing wrong with that.

Yup. I do that too. Sometimes only a few words, e.g.:

• “How can this be?”
• “How is it that the mother of My Lord should come to me?”
• “Let us go to Bethlehem and see this thing . . . which the angel has made known to us.”
• “And coming up at that very hour [Anna] gave thanks to God, and spoke of [Jesus]to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.”
• “Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”

 

[mercygate]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

How do you explain this verse from King Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived?

He wrote it before Jesus rescued the souls “from prison” and opened the gates of Heaven.

 

[cecilia97]

Good morning MLP,

I am surprised you use this verse of Ecclesiastes as if it were true. And you use it repeatedly…

Have you actually read the book?

This chapter in particular is about how everything in the world seems senseless. How, without God, life is empty and meaningless. An absurd cycle of life and death and what does it all mean?

The point of view of the writer is a WORLDLY one! Someone who has no knowledge of the afterlife. It demonstrates how ridiculous the atheist position is.

You cannot use it as a proof text of what the afterlife is like!

Would you support a similar reading of verse 10? No heaven, no hell?

Thanks for that reality check, jpusateri.

Even verse 5 in the original quotation is clearly not talking about those who can look forward to eternal life with God…no reward, memories forgotten? Has Miss Lollipops (or any of us here) forgotten the names of her departed loved ones?

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

 

[misslollipops]

You miss the point of the passage…First the Rich Man sees from where he is [in the flames] to the place where Lazarus and Abraham are. The Rich Man sees and recognizes both Lazarus [who he would have known] ]nd Abraham [whom he would not know]. The Rich Man calls out [speaks to] them from his place to theirs and Abraham responds back to him…

You are correct that the characters did not cross [move between] the chasm nor was the sinful man’s request honored for his brothers to be warned. The fact is that he was concerned for their fate and interceeded on their behalf…and he oviously knew their current state of grace and that they were in jeapordy!!!

Now if a sinful person [after death] in a state of torment can show concern for and interceed for a loved one on earth why not a rightious person? Would the dead [from this life but alive in Christ] show less concern for the living . Would they be less aware of their surroundings than a person codemned to the lake of fire?

Lazarus was righteous. Why didn’t he go down to help the rich mans brothers? Answer because he was not allowed.

 

[misslollipops]

Good morning MLP,

I am surprised you use this verse of Ecclesiastes as if it were true. And you use it repeatedly…

Have you actually read the book?

This chapter in particular is about how everything in the world seems senseless. How, without God, life is empty and meaningless. An absurd cycle of life and death and what does it all mean?

The point of view of the writer is a WORLDLY one! Someone who has no knowledge of the afterlife. It demonstrates how ridiculous the atheist position is.

You cannot use it as a proof text of what the afterlife is like!

Would you support a similar reading of verse 10? No heaven, no hell?

I didn’t know there were things in the bible that were untrue.
Please elarborate.

 

[mercygate]

I didn’t know there were things in the bible that were untrue.
Please elarborate.

When one passage of Scripture appears to contradict another, the full context must be balanced aross all of Scripture. Others have explained why this text does not apply to the COMMUNION of Saints.

 

[deanarrca]

Lazarus was righteous. Why didn’t he go down to help the rich mans brothers? Answer because he was not allowed.

Question-- In the story of Lazarus and the Rich Mann, is it a description of heaven and hell as it is going to be in the future after Christ has been sacrificed on the cross?
OR Is it a description of what the Jew at that time then understood to be Sheol/ Hades- Paradise/Bosom of Abraham which I thought was different and not the same as heaven and hell is after Christ’s death and resurrection?

I thought Sheol/ Hades & Paradise/Bosom of Abraham  was kinda  a waiting place before for the dead from the old testament before Christ's sacrifice had occurred on the cross. Then I thought Christ went down and preached to the souls in Sheol/Hades before he was resurrected on the third day. **OK I am getting myself thoroughly confused.**

Can some one explain the different concepts in the old testament
ie: Sheol/ Hades, Paradise, Bosom of Abraham
as opposed to the concept of Hell and Heaven and being with the Lord in the new testament? (If it needs to be another thread thats ok- this is related to this thread but i don’t want to get way off topic or hijack this thread).

Oh Also I remember from my past studies (many years ago) certain words Greek and Hebrew words were translated differently such as sometimes they were translated as hell then the same words might also be traslated as pit or grave.

 I forgot how confusing this all was- I think I have been thinking too hard today? Help needed to get all unconfused (also my confusion could stem from 20 years of protestant teaching from at least 4 different protestant churches that all taught differently about this.

Now that I am becoming Catholic if there is the Catholic understanding maybe I could get unconfused.

Thanks in advance

 

[Gamera]

I didn’t know there were things in the bible that were untrue.
Please elarborate.

“Curse God and die.” Job 2:9.

That’s the kind of result you get when you quote a verse without knowing its meaning. Yes, the words “Curse God and die,” appear in this verse, but the reader isn’t supposed to take those words as advice! Same with the verse you quote from Ecclesiastes. The reader isn’t supposed to agree.

 

[jmcrae]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.

The concept of life after death had not yet been revealed, at the time that this was written. Furthermore, if you put the quote into context, Solomon is not talking about the spiritual life (he is not even aware that there is such a thing as the spiritual life) - he is talking about worldly affairs.

Obviously, once a business man passes on to the next life, he no longer receives profits from his business, and he no longer attends shareholder meetings. Therefore, once he has passed on, it no longer matters whether he was rich or poor in this life, since all are equal in the grave, from a financial point of view.

Again, Solomon could not have known anything about the next life, because it had not yet been revealed. It would be another thousand years or so before God revealed to the Prophets that there is a life beyond this life here on earth. But this revelation happened slowly and gradually - they didn’t figure it out all at once. In fact, there are still Jews around today who don’t believe in an afterlife.

 

[hp5]

To misslollipops:

Seeing your thoughts and discussions I see myself after my own born-again experience!

In any case what you think of Matt 25:31-46

I wonder how come our Lord does not ask about being born-again, spreading the good news, etc.,

 

[misslollipops]

The concept of life after death had not yet been revealed, at the time that this was written. Furthermore, if you put the quote into context, Solomon is not talking about the spiritual life (he is not even aware that there is such a thing as the spiritual life) - he is talking about worldly affairs.

Obviously, once a business man passes on to the next life, he no longer receives profits from his business, and he no longer attends shareholder meetings. Therefore, once he has passed on, it no longer matters whether he was rich or poor in this life, since all are equal in the grave, from a financial point of view.

Again, Solomon could not have known anything about the next life, because it had not yet been revealed. It would be another thousand years or so before God revealed to the Prophets that there is a life beyond this life here on earth. But this revelation happened slowly and gradually - they didn’t figure it out all at once. In fact, there are still Jews around today who don’t believe in an afterlife.

The tree of life was mentioned in Gen3:22 along with many other places but it is a subject of another thread.
Genesis 3:22 (New King James Version)

22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

 

[jmcrae]

The tree of life was mentioned in Gen3:22 along with many other places but it is a subject of another thread.
Genesis 3:22 (New King James Version)

22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

He is talking about living forever on the earth.

Again, there is no concept of life after death in the early part of the Old Testament, before the time of the Prophets.

 

[misslollipops]

He is talking about living forever on the earth.

Again, there is no concept of life after death in the early part of the Old Testament, before the time of the Prophets.

Job14-1Job 14:14 (New King James Version)

14 If a man dies, shall he live again?
All the days of my hard service I will wait,
Till my change comes.

Psalm 17:15 (New King James Version)

15 As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness;
I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.

Proverbs 11:30 (New International Version)

30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life,
and he who wins souls is wise.

 

[DebChris]

Rosary can be used as a bible study?

The most important part of the Bible for Christians is the Gospels because they record the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. When we meditate upon the mysteries of the rosary, we are following a tradition dating back to the Early Fathers. The Early Fathers made a daily practice of meditating upon the life of Jesus Christ.
When we recite the rosary, we not only honor Mary, we honor God by meditating upon the life and times of Jesus Christ. In that sense, yes the Rosary can be used as a Bible study. We end the rosary by praying that “by meditating upon the mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise through the same Christ, our Lord.”
We open ourselves to the graces that flow from God alone. These grace flow through the Aquaduct that is Mary our Mother, the image used by St. Louis de Montfont.
As Randy Carson posted (#48), our God is a God of the living and not of the dead. Whenever we gather for Mass, we are joined by the Communion of Saints at the Eucharistic feast. Have you ever noticed that the priest takes three steps back from the altar to symbolically make room during the consecration? Whenever we participate in the Mass, we join our earthly prayers with those of heaven.
Sometimes it is easy to become caught in the trap of reading Scripture only literally. Scripture is also to be read in light of Jesus Christ. It is to be applied to our own lives, and it is to be read in light of the end times. During this lifetime, I do not see myself reaching the full depth of what my Faith has to offer. I only know that Mary helps me along my journey.
Jesus told his disciples," who ever receives you, receives me." The same can be applied to Mary. When we deny the only creature whose will was aligned entirely with that of God, we in fact deny God himself. When we honor a man’s mother, we honor the man. The rosary is a ladder that helps us on our climb to heaven. Where the Mother is, so shall we find the Son.

 

[misslollipops]

The most important part of the Bible for Christians is the Gospels because they record the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. When we meditate upon the mysteries of the rosary, we are following a tradition dating back to the Early Fathers. The Early Fathers made a daily practice of meditating upon the life of Jesus Christ.
When we recite the rosary, we not only honor Mary, we honor God by meditating upon the life and times of Jesus Christ. In that sense, yes the Rosary can be used as a Bible study. We end the rosary by praying that “by meditating upon the mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise through the same Christ, our Lord.”
We open ourselves to the graces that flow from God alone. These grace flow through the Aquaduct that is Mary our Mother, the image used by St. Louis de Montfont.
As Randy Carson posted (#48), our God is a God of the living and not of the dead. Whenever we gather for Mass, we are joined by the Communion of Saints at the Eucharistic feast. Have you ever noticed that the priest takes three steps back from the altar to symbolically make room during the consecration? Whenever we participate in the Mass, we join our earthly prayers with those of heaven.
Sometimes it is easy to become caught in the trap of reading Scripture only literally. Scripture is also to be read in light of Jesus Christ. It is to be applied to our own lives, and it is to be read in light of the end times. During this lifetime, I do not see myself reaching the full depth of what my Faith has to offer. I only know that Mary helps me along my journey.
Jesus told his disciples," who ever receives you, receives me." The same can be applied to Mary. When we deny the only creature whose will was aligned entirely with that of God, we in fact deny God himself. When we honor a man’s mother, we honor the man. The rosary is a ladder that helps us on our climb to heaven. Where the Mother is, so shall we find the Son.

It is statements like this where things go awry.
How could you know that Mary was the only creature whose will was aligned entirely with that of God?.
Mary was human.
She needed a savior.Lk1:47
Your statement deifies her.

 

[DebChris]

It is not uncommon for people to use quotations from Scripture to “set up” the meditation on each decade of the Rosary. When I was beginning to learn the Rosary, I went to Scripture and carefully read the portion of Scripture that each decade focuses on, and THEN I prayed a decade of the Rosary: slowly, gently, immersing myself in the sense of the mystery.

One of the best books on praying the Rosary is by a non-Catholic, Robert Llewellyn. It describes how to pray the Rosary without getting sucked into nattering repetition. The title is *A Doorway to Silence: the Contemplative Use of the Rosary. *

This is a good way of showing how to “read and pray.” There are several books that give a scriptural quote before each decade or each Hail Mary as it is recited.
We read. Pause. Meditate. Lectio Divina is a good example of this as well. The person reads the Bible until a single verse strikes him/her. This verse is taken and meditated upon throughout the day. The person may simply allow the verse to “roll over and over” in his/her mind. The Holy Spirit may reveal ways the individual can apply the particular passage being meditated upon to his/her life. The goal in either case is closer union with God. It is always God’s initiative that draws us into silence, into a prayer without words where we simply bask in the Love that is God alone. I often use Lectio Divina as start to journalling. Without judgment, my words flow from the verse upon which I meditate.