Praying the Hail Mary

[misslollipops]

Grant for just one second that God wants us to ask the saints for their prayers just like he wants us to intercede for each other here on earth—

*Don’t you think if he wanted something to happen he could make it possible? *

i lived the first 25 years of my life under that belief.
Now I know that the glory goes to God alone and the veil has been removed so we can go right to the throne of grace.
We can go right into the Holy of Holies because of the sacrifice of Jesus.
I no longer pray to peaople who have died.
But I will ask Christian brothers and sisters to pray for me.
The difference is they are living and saints have died.
I do not pray to the dead.

 

[EphelDuath]

Saints are more alive than we are. You appear to have skipped over that.

Heaven is a place of eternal life, not death. God is God of the living, not the dead. Jesus died so we may attain life, not just when we die. Etc.

 

[jmcrae]

i lived the first 25 years of my life under that belief.
Now I know that the glory goes to God alone and the veil has been removed so we can go right to the throne of grace.
We can go right into the Holy of Holies because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

Yes, we can go to the Holy of Holies - the Mass.

Why do you not?

I no longer pray to peaople who have died.
But I will ask Christian brothers and sisters to pray for me.
The difference is they are living and saints have died.
I do not pray to the dead.

What do you believe about life after death?

Do you believe that this life is all we get, and that our “Heaven” is the happiness that we enjoy with Jesus here on this earth?

 

[Mannyfit75]

i lived the first 25 years of my life under that belief.

probably because you were poorly catechized.

Now I know that the glory goes to God alone and the veil has been removed so we can go right to the throne of grace

.

Of course. God is the source of all our grace. Without him we are nothing. This is what the Catholic Church teaches.

We can go right into the Holy of Holies because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

Where would that be in your church? The Catholic Church Holy of Holies is the Tabernacle, where the Sacred Body and Blood of the Lord is kept for Eucharistic Adoration

I no longer pray to people who have died.

Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

They need more of your help, especially those who are saved but I will ask Christian brothers and sisters to pray for me. The difference is they are living and saints have died.
I do not pray to the dead.

God is the God of the Living, not the dead. They are more alive than us because they are closer to God than you are.

Again, you apparently have derail this topic by giving us the **Doctrinal Dance **(giving us more than one doctrinal or dogmatic issue to tackle). Catholic Apologists don’t like the Doctrinal Dance.

 

[misslollipops]

Saints are more alive than we are.
.

How do you know where the saints are?
Are you sure that every one of the thousands of saints is in heaven and they can hear your prayers and will do your bidding by bringing your request to the Father?
Can you be 100% sure?

We know from scripture that Jesus lives to make intercession for us but as for anyone else we don’t know for certain.

1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version)
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[Gamera]

Simple question:

If you stopped praying the Hail Mary, would your salvation be affected?
If so, in what way would it be affected?

It would depend on why I stopped saying it. The mere fact that I stopped saying that particular prayer would not be a sin, no. However, I could stop saying it for sinful reasons, such as my having fallen into apostasy, heresy or schism. Those underlying sins certainly could affect my salvation.

 

[jmcrae]

How do you know where the saints are?

By the fruits of their lives. No one is declared a Saint without a thorough investigation of their lives to ensure that they never committed an unconfessed mortal sin, or adhered to any form of heresy without repenting of it later.

Are you sure that every one of the thousands of saints is in heaven and they can hear your prayers and will do your bidding by bringing your request to the Father?
Can you be 100% sure?

We no more think that the Saints “do our bidding” than that God Himself does. We are the slaves - not the Master, or even the greater servants. When we ask, it is always contingent on God’s will for the situation.

 

[Gamera]

How do you know where the saints are?
Are you sure that every one of the thousands of saints is in heaven and they can hear your prayers and will do your bidding by bringing your request to the Father?
Can you be 100% sure?

We know from scripture that Jesus lives to make intercession for us but as for anyone else we don’t know for certain.

Yes, I am 100% sure that anyone who dies in a state of grace will go to heaven. That’s what a saint is.

Yes, I am 100% sure that saints carry our prayers to God because the Bible says so. “When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints,” Rev. 5:8. “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel,” Rev. 8:3-4. These verses show (1) those in heaven have access to our prayers, and (2) those in heaven can offer our prayers to God.

And yes, I am 100% sure that saints can hear us, again because the Bible tells me so. “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, AND TO THE SPIRITS OF THE RIGHTEOUS MADE PERFECT, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.” Heb. 12:22-24.

 

[Church_Militant]

i lived the first 25 years of my life under that belief.
Now I know that the glory goes to God alone and the veil has been removed so we can go right to the throne of grace.

No one in the Catholic Church ever told you different because that is not a Catholic belief.

Asking for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin and the saints is certainly optional in the same sense that asking for the intercession of any other believer is also optional, but very few believers will want to “go it alone” like that.

We can go right into the Holy of Holies because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

No, really? Faithful Catholics have no problems with that.

I no longer pray to peaople who have died.

No but I bet that when you visit the graves of faithful departed loved ones you will talk to them and believe in your heart that they can hear you.

But I will ask Christian brothers and sisters to pray for me.
The difference is they are living and saints have died.
I do not pray to the dead.

So, those who have died in the faith don’t know or care what goes on here with us?
The Intercession & Communion of Saints

 

[Mannyfit75]

How do you know where the saints are?
Are you sure that every one of the thousands of saints is in heaven and they can hear your prayers and will do your bidding by bringing your request to the Father? Can you be 100% sure?

Those early Christians who were martyr for their faith. Like Jesus said in the Scripture.

Those who died for Christ are rewarded heaven and life everlasting.

Matthew 5:10

Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Those who believe in Jesus and persevere to the end and lie in His name rewarded the kingdom.

John 6:47

47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life

.
John 3:36

36 He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting

; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

and of course the popular verse:

16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish

, but may have life everlasting. John 3:16.

I heardly see any Biblical verse that whoever believes in God shall see death. Because by your logic, you say that Christian martyrs who die remain dead. Perhaps you go by the Protestant doctrine of “soul sleep” which is totally alien to us.

It is true the saints are without their bodies, but since they have been rewarded by God. They see him face to face. In due time though, on the day of resurrection, they will be reunited with their bodies.

 

[EphelDuath]

How do you know where the saints are?

Well, Mary specifically we know is in Heaven because she’s crowned the Queen in Revelation.

 

[YADA]

How do you know where the saints are?
Are you sure that every one of the thousands of saints is in heaven and they can hear your prayers and will do your bidding by bringing your request to the Father?
Can you be 100% sure?

We know from scripture that Jesus lives to make intercession for us but as for anyone else we don’t know for certain.

1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version)
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

If you truly believed that 1 Timothy 2:5 means that there is One and only one mediator, then you should never ask any one to pray for you, whether they are living or dead…Just go drectly to Jesus…

If it is sinful and against scripture to ask another to pray for you based upon this passage, then it is sinful…end of discussion…so why do you ask others to pray for you when you can go directly to Jesus with out any other mediation [and especially as that is sinful]?

The fact is, you do not believe that this passage excludes all intercessory prayer…just the intercessory prayer that YOU have decided is sinful…

However, this passage probably means that there is not going to be another Messiah, another Incarnation whereby God, becomes man…as in Jesus is mediating between man and God…Jesus is God…Jesus was in the Beginning the Alpha and the Omega…The role of Jesus [as the Second Person of the Trinity] interceeds for us in a manner that no other can…

Afterall, prayers were heard by God before the Incarnation…prayers were heard by God before Jesus began his public ministry…The Triune God was not awaiting Jesus’ ascension before beig able to hear man’s prayers…

In fact, Jesus [God] knows everything about us without our uttering any prayers, He knows our very need…

We ask [pray] others to ask [pray] God to answer our prayers, respond to His will for us, etc…

I think you confuse te word ‘pray’ which simply means to ask with the act of the ‘worship’ that is God’s alone…we do not worship any human being…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It is truly a sad thing when a person who was blessed with the fullness of faith winds up throwing that away for something ‘less’.

Sort of like a person being handed a delicious orange, peeling it, then throwing away the segments, and even the peel, and carefully, ceremoniously eating the little pip stem, and then boasting how HIS orange was the BEST orange in the world. . .

 

[Mannyfit75]

It is truly a sad thing when a person who was blessed with the fullness of faith winds up throwing that away for something ‘less’.

Sort of like a person being handed a delicious orange, peeling it, then throwing away the segments, and even the peel, and carefully, ceremoniously eating the little pip stem, and then boasting how HIS orange was the BEST orange in the world. . .

It is sad how Protestants here throw Mary around like she someone less lowly.

I like to quote a line from the Magificat:

52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. - Luke 1:52

God exalted the humble, and Mary is humble.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I wonder how you copy and pasted the verse as it appears in the nkjv.
As far as I know the catholic position is ‘full of grace’ and that is where the immaculate conception doctrine is hinged on.

Partly.

However, Catholicism does not rest on the Bible Alone since it depends on the FULL revelation of God and not just on that portion which is written.

For a fuller treatment of the proofs of the Immaculate Conception: newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

i lived the first 25 years of my life under that belief.
Now I know that the glory goes to God alone and the veil has been removed so we can go right to the throne of grace.
We can go right into the Holy of Holies because of the sacrifice of Jesus.
I no longer pray to peaople who have died.
But I will ask Christian brothers and sisters to pray for me.
The difference is they are living and saints have died.
I do not pray to the dead.

The first half of those years you were a child too young to understand. Then came the rebellious teenage years. Finally, just before you left, you may have been able to reason, but you had been filled with too many errors by the point according to your own testimony.

Your “25 years” in Catholicism obviously meant very little.

We don’t pray to the dead, either.

Mark 12:26-28
26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’a]? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

How do you know where the saints are?
Are you sure that every one of the thousands of saints is in heaven and they can hear your prayers and will do your bidding by bringing your request to the Father?
Can you be 100% sure?

We know from scripture that Jesus lives to make intercession for us but as for anyone else we don’t know for certain.

1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version)
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 Timothy 2:5-6 Explained

The Catholic Church recognizes Mary’s role in salvation history and invokes her under the title of Mediatrix. However, many people struggle to understand how Mary can have this role which they reserve for Christ alone, and they cite the following verse in support of their position:

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Hebrews 7:24-25
because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Here we see that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for “those who come to God through him.” The role of the mediator and the intercessor are synonymous; a mediator lives to intercede for others.

All Christians are called to be mediators or intercessors for one another because we are all members of Christ’s body as we see from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Paul referred to himself as a co-laborer with Christ when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers.

Paul went further in his understanding of our responsibility as co-laborers with Christ when when he wrote:

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Is anything lacking from the perfect sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross? Paul clearly indicates that more is to be done and that he makes up what is “still lacking” in his own flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation

Additionally, we know that we are called to share in the priesthood of all believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:5-9), and a priest, by definition, is called to be a mediator between God and men. Each of us is called to this role and to be a mediator or mediatrix for others before God.

Therefore, if we are all called to this role of mediator and intercessor for one another, how much more can this be said of Mary who said, “Yes” to God and brought Christ into the world?

 

[misslollipops]

1 Timothy 2:5-6 Explained

The Catholic Church recognizes Mary’s role in salvation history and invokes her under the title of Mediatrix. However, many people struggle to understand how Mary can have this role which they reserve for Christ alone, and they cite the following verse in support of their position:

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Hebrews 7:24-25
because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Here we see that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for “those who come to God through him.” The role of the mediator and the intercessor are synonymous; a mediator lives to intercede for others.

All Christians are called to be mediators or intercessors for one another because we are all members of Christ’s body as we see from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Paul referred to himself as a co-laborer with Christ when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers.

Paul went further in his understanding of our responsibility as co-laborers with Christ when when he wrote:

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Is anything lacking from the perfect sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross? Paul clearly indicates that more is to be done and that he makes up what is “still lacking” in his own flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation

Additionally, we know that we are called to share in the priesthood of all believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:5-9), and a priest, by definition, is called to be a mediator between God and men. Each of us is called to this role and to be a mediator or mediatrix for others before God.

Therefore, if we are all called to this role of mediator and intercessor for one another, how much more can this be said of Mary who said, “Yes” to God and brought Christ into the world?

So it is like asking someone who has died to do something for you. Say your dad dies, you ask him to watch over your children or something like that.
Is that what it is like?

 

[JButky]

i lived the first 25 years of my life under that belief.
Now I know that the glory goes to God alone and the veil has been removed so we can go right to the throne of grace.
We can go right into the Holy of Holies because of the sacrifice of Jesus.
I no longer pray to peaople who have died.
But I will ask Christian brothers and sisters to pray for me.
The difference is they are living and saints have died.
I do not pray to the dead.

This is so sad. Do you understand 1 Corinthians 12? If you think the saints are dead, you mock the work of Christ. Christ’s work is about life not death. Satan is death and I’m sure you don’t mean the saints are with him! Hopefully you make this claim in ignorance. If you fully understand, perhaps you can see why this statement is pretty near blasphemous. To say that the saints are dead and not needed is also not scriptural. Specifically:

NKJV
1 Cor 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

Why do you condemn Scripture as false?

The saints’ bodies may be dead but their souls are immortal. We only wait for the body to be resurrected as Jesus promised upon His return. As 1 Cor 12 teaches, we each have gifts and are all connected. Freed from their body, their souls are closer to God than we are.

And Mary is of course the most special saint.

Joe B

 

[Randy_Carson]

So it is like asking someone who has died to do something for you. Say your dad dies, you ask him to watch over your children or something like that.
Is that what it is like?

I suppose that is fair…it would be reasonable to ask him to pray for their protection.

Suppose I’m on the phone with my dad one day, and I say, “Dad, my son is really struggling at school. Would you keep him in your prayers?” That night my dad dies peacefully in his sleep. There is no reason why I can’t then say, “Dad, you’ve got a better view of the throne now…keep praying for your grandson.”

Make sense?

However, more typically, we pray to saints who have been formally declared to be in heaven already and are more famous.

Hope this helps. :tiphat: