Praying the rosary at Mass

[John_of_Patmos]

My Polish Grandma always prays the Rosary starting before Mass and into about a fourth of it.

 

[mick321]

And also pray that they will learn to value the Mass enough to keep their full attention on it.

I totally agree. If offered silently, that would be a fantastic prayer.

We should always remember that any the person offering silent prayer in Mass may not be Catholic or even Christian. If he IS Catholic he may not yet be properly disposed to receive the Eucharist. He may NEED to complete the very serious business of repentance before he may worthily approach the Altar of God. Just because he holds a sacramental object in his hand does not mean he is engage in some frivolous diversion.

There is no need to judge someone’s heart at this point. We should all be thankful that there is someone in *our *presence who takes the Real Presence of Christ seriously. Emulate him if you can. And offer it up.

“…do not murmur against one another…” James 5:9

 

[TrueLight]

I totally agree. If offered silently, that would be a fantastic prayer.

We should always remember that any the person offering silent prayer in Mass may not be Catholic or even Christian. If he IS Catholic he may not yet be properly disposed to receive the Eucharist. He may NEED to complete the very serious business of repentance before he may worthily approach the Altar of God. Just because he holds a sacramental object in his hand does not mean he is engage in some frivolous diversion.

There is no need to judge someone’s heart at this point. We should all be thankful that there is someone in our presence who takes the Real Presence seriously. Emulate him when you can. And offer it up.

.

 

[GaryTaylor]

My Polish Grandma always prays the Rosary starting before Mass and into about a fourth of it.

Ya, the grandmas pass the tradition pretty well.

 

[JustaServant]

I totally agree. If offered silently, that would be a fantastic prayer.

We should always remember that any the person offering silent prayer in Mass may not be Catholic or even Christian. If he IS Catholic he may not yet be properly disposed to receive the Eucharist. He may NEED to complete the very serious business of repentance before he may worthily approach the Altar of God. Just because he holds a sacramental object in his hand does not mean he is engage in some frivolous diversion.

There is no need to judge someone’s heart at this point. We should all be thankful that there is someone in *our *presence who takes the Real Presence of Christ seriously. Emulate him if you can. And offer it up.

.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[JustaServant]

Being at Mass is being there as a community. Mass is not a bunch of people who don’t care about anyone else who happen to be in the same room with a priest up front; it’s not a movie or a theatre production. Mass is our public, communal worship.

CCC 1136: Liturgy is an “action” of the whole Christ

CCC 1140:
It is the whole community, the Body of Christ united with its Head, that celebrates. “Liturgical services are not private functions but are celebrations of the Church which is ‘the sacrament of unity,’ namely, the holy people united and organized under the authority of the bishops. Therefore, liturgical services pertain to the whole Body of the Church. They manifest it, and have effects upon it. But they touch individual members of the Church in different ways, depending on their orders, their role in the liturgical services, and their actual participation in them.” For this reason, “rites which are meant to be celebrated in common, with the faithful present and actively participating, should as far as possible be celebrated in that way rather than by an individual and quasi-privately.”

Mass is 1) Public and 2) Communal (not private). Praying the rosary is the opposite. It is private and individual; it’s doing your own thing.

But that’s just the thing, Mass is not a private affair between a person and God…

Again, you are taking the words of the CCC and making it say something it is not. No one is denying the Mass is public, that is not the point. The point is it is to the priest alone to state the words of consecration. A priest has authroity the layman does not possess. Ordination imprints a character which distinguishes a priest from a layman not just in degree, but essense. Mass without a congregation is possible, Mass with a priest is impossible.

 

[asd72]

It is sad that many in this thread have decided to publicly advocate disregarding the teaching that the there should be separation between the Mass and all other forms of public and private devotions. They must be clear and distinct as taught in Vatican II.

It seems one thing to act as if Vatican II never happened, and another to knowingly promote practices opposed to it.

 

[Hesychios]

… the Mass is a prayer, not a “service”.

I wonder what the definition of ‘a service’ is in this context? What does it really mean?

Very true.

Just some observations in line with these thoughts …

Mass is a communal prayer.

It is not a crowd of people praying individually.

It is the community at work in worship, the focus needs to be on the common worship.

Visitors, of course, are not necessarily worshiping, they may be observing. For example an anthropologist might peek in and make a study of the community’s efforts, but be also quite detached. A film crew might be hired in to record the event. A curious neighbor might, with sincerely good intention, want to watch and perhaps gain some familiarity. Some children might not understand much.

But for the community of believers it is a prayerful common effort, and there should ideally be a common focus. We are saved in community, and we come together to worship together. This is why exercising private devotions during the greater part of Mass is counterproductive.

There is a nice explanation of the Mass here … I found it to be a pretty good brief description of what happens and what is intended.

 

[TrueLight]

I wonder what the definition of ‘a service’ is in this context? What does it really mean?Just some observations in line with these thoughts …

Mass is a communal prayer.

It is not a crowd of people praying individually.

It is the community at work in worship, the focus needs to be on the common worship.

Visitors, of course, are not necessarily worshiping, they may be observing. For example an anthropologist might peek in and make a study of the community’s efforts, but be also quite detached. A film crew might be hired in to record the event. A curious neighbor might, with sincerely good intention, want to watch and perhaps gain some familiarity. Some children might not understand much.

But for the community of believers it is a prayerful common effort, and there should ideally be a common focus. We are saved in community, and we come together to worship together. This is why exercising private devotions during the greater part of Mass is counterproductive.

There is a nice explanation of the Mass here … I found it to be a pretty good brief description of what happens and what is intended.

I’m not exactly sure of everything that goes on at your DL, but answer this for me.

During the mass, what are you thinking? What are you praying?

I know there is a lot of singing in the Orthodox DL, so you might be singing. When you are not singing, are you praying to yourself? Is your mind blank and you are just fixed on what’s happening? I’d guess you’re focused, but maybe even saying some prayers to yourself? Is that so?

 

[newyorkcatholic]

See, I think Augustine would argue that praying the Rosary enough, you can hit the auto-pilot when it because rote. When that happens, you could conceivably pray it during Mass as you’re not actually full aware that you’re praying the Rosary, due to the contemplative state you’re reaching.

But once you reach that stage with the Rosary, what becomes of Mass, and can you still invest in Mass while in this state?

It’s an interesting question.

A weird question to me. Reaching a contemplative state is a potential problem at Mass, why?

Do you know many saints reached ecstasy while celebrating Mass? One saint just stayed at the altar for hours in contemplation without continuing (not rubrically but he wasn’t trying to do this, the Lord gave him a gift). St. John of Cross supposedly was enraptured and left during the Mass once.

Another saint had to be held down by a server because he was levitating. Can’t remember which saint.

Any, this sounds like the worst way to misunderstand participation in Mass. Words and gestures aid our contemplation. They are not ends in themselves.

If you are in a meditative state you are participating in the mass more fully, not less so.

In the NO, because of the constant attention laity ate asked to pay to rubrics, it’s harder to pray the rosary. But, it wasn’t wrong for hundreds of years, so it’s not wrong just because we are so enlightened and modern now.

Here seems to be the main problem in this thread: different views of the Mass. Yes the Mass is a public work and a dialogue Mass or the NO emphasizes this. So participating at Mass by following the texts closely is great, even the best way. No one in the pro-rosary-at-mass side says you can’t follow the text closely.

But the Office is liturgy too. What make the Mass different is that it is an unbloody re-presentation of the Sacrifice at Calvary. We are actually at the foot of the Cross. I’m there with Our Lady. And knowing this, of course Mass is about more than sayig or doing certain things. I could pray the rosary. I could pray for my departed loved ones. I could focus on the day’s mystery.

This is why in the Mass we even have things like vestments (so we think about the day) and stained glass and sculptures and a choir and so in.

In an EF High Mass, you are downright discouraged from following all the prayers. You can try to follow the prayers at the foot if you want, but they are said quietly and a beautiful introit is being chanted at the same time. My mind goes to the introit.

 

[JustaServant]

A weird question to me. Reaching a contemplative state is a potential problem at Mass, why?

Do you know many saints reached ecstasy while celebrating Mass? One saint just stayed at the altar for hours in contemplation without continuing (not rubrically but he wasn’t trying to do this, the Lord gave him a gift). St. John of Cross supposedly was enraptured and left during the Mass once.

Another saint had to be held down by a server because he was levitating. Can’t remember which saint.

Any, this sounds like the worst way to misunderstand participation in Mass. Words and gestures aid our contemplation. They are not ends in themselves.

If you are in a meditative state you are participating in the mass more fully, not less so.

In the NO, because of the constant attention laity ate asked to pay to rubrics, it’s harder to pray the rosary. But, it wasn’t wrong for hundreds of years, so it’s not wrong just because we are so enlightened and modern now.

Here seems to be the main problem in this thread: different views of the Mass. Yes the Mass is a public work and a dialogue Mass or the NO emphasizes this. So participating at Mass by following the texts closely is great, even the best way. No one in the pro-rosary-at-mass side says you can’t follow the text closely.

But the Office is liturgy too. What make the Mass different is that it is an unbloody re-presentation of the Sacrifice at Calvary. We are actually at the foot of the Cross. I’m there with Our Lady. And knowing this, of course Mass is about more than sayig or doing certain things. I could pray the rosary. I could pray for my departed loved ones. I could focus on the day’s mystery.

This is why in the Mass we even have things like vestments (so we think about the day) and stained glass and sculptures and a choir and so in.

In an EF High Mass, you are downright discouraged from following all the prayers. You can try to follow the prayers at the foot if you want, but they are said quietly and a beautiful introit is being chanted at the same time. My mind goes to the introit.

Thank you for putting it so well. This thread really should have ended with four pages. But different view of the Mass kept it going.
And take it from a guy who used to stand in a pulpit. Whether people are at a Catholic Mass or a Protestant service, their minds are active and they are contemplating something. Whether it be the Rosary, the rubrics, lunch, the football game, last nights date… That’s why I don’t understand the reaction to praying the Rosary at Mass.
In this day and age they could be texting on their cellphone. Which would we prefer?

 

[asd72]

Thank you for putting it so well. This thread really should have ended with four pages. But different view of the Mass kept it going.
And take it from a guy who used to stand in a pulpit. Whether people are at a Catholic Mass or a Protestant service, their minds are active and they are contemplating something. Whether it be the Rosary, the rubrics, lunch, the football game, last nights date… That’s why I don’t understand the reaction to praying the Rosary at Mass.
In this day and age they could be texting on their cellphone. Which would we prefer?

The trouble is you are promoting your own view. The different view which you refer to is called the teaching of the Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Have you ever seen a Catholic bishop, priest or deacon interfere, disrupt or rebuke someone for praying the rosary in Mass? If not, then it’s ALLOWED. And that’s that.

The same can be said of the abuses in the OF. So you guys shouldn’t be complaining about it if the priest or bishop is not complaining about it, right?

 

[Rich_C]

The trouble is you are promoting your own view. The different view which you refer to is called the teaching of the Church.

First, I think you meant “discipline of the Church,” not teaching. Secondly, is there another source for this discipline than that one line in Pope Paul VI’s apostolic exhortion Cult of Mary?

When that was written in 1974, what we now call the EF Mass was under a de facto ban, so all Latin-rite Catholics were assumed to be operating under the GIRM for the Pauline missal, right?

Well, if the GIRM for the 1970 missal precludes saying the Rosary than I suppose one can’t really argue with that.

But in the EF Mass, there are no rubrics for the laity. Same Church, same canon law, of course, but different guidelines for behavior while at Mass.

I seems like it doesn’t apply to the EF Mass, at least.

 

[Rich_C]

The same can be said of the abuses in the OF. So you guys shouldn’t be complaining about it if the priest or bishop is not complaining about it, right?

Generally, abuses consist of the actions in the sanctuary or the musicians playing something inappropriate, not merely individual actions of the faithful in the pews. Apples and oranges.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Generally, abuses consist of the actions in the sanctuary or the musicians playing something inappropriate, not merely individual actions of the faithful in the pews. Apples and oranges.

Going back to the Orans question that never got answered. So you won’t complain about people, out of their own will, do the Orans during the Our Father?

 

[jam070406]

Thank you for using past tense, as that means that although it used to be that way, it’s very possible that things have changed since then.

Yes, it USED to be that the TLM was the OF of the Mass. So it would make sense that the writings we can draw from would come from that time, no?

Oh, all what Pope Paul VI did was start the renewal of the religious and an incredible landmark encyclical. Plus being an expert in Canon Law.

What does this have to do with the topic?? When we speak of the topic of thread I assumed we were talking about the practice of praying the rosary at the TLM. Because that is where it happens, due to it’s silent times of prayer & contemplation.

I would say at the OF, it would be difficult because the rubrics & form don’t allow for it. If you are saying we should pay attention at the OF, then I agree with you.

You haven’t addressed the “Orans” question, I wouldn’t mind if you did.

This is not done at the TLM. I’ve seen people do this at the OF. It’s really irrelevant to me.
I don’t do it and it’s not my duty to stop them.
It used to be most of the little old ladies that would direct it back at the Priest “and also with you (Father)”
Now seems that “and with your spirit” confuses them and the practice has dropped off.

I am finding it interesting that people whom we would ordinarily see as liturgical hardliners are advocating doing something other than fully paying attention during the liturgy.

Nobody has advocated any such thing. Now you are being intellectually dishonest. You can go back to post #1 and read exactly what the OP has said on the matter.
I don’t know if you have been to the TLM but, there are moments of silence for prayer. The OP has said he joins his prayers, while praying the rosary, to the silent prayers being said by the Priest.
And he even specifically said he stops to pay attention at given times.
I, personally, have never prayed the rosary at Mass.

 

[jam070406]

Going back to the Orans question that never got answered. So you won’t complain about people, out of their own will, do the Orans during the Our Father?

Do you hold hands during the Our Father?

 

[Rich_C]

I’ll remember this the next time someone complains about;

• Orans posture.
• Holding hands during the Our Father.
• Writing in a prayer journal.
• Receiving the Eucharist on the tongue and/or standing.

Touchee, Melch. But I wouldn’t go as far in condemning those as some have gone here in condemning recitation of the Rosary. If people want to know what I think about those (in fact, two of the four seem fine to me) I’d tell them, and hope that with greater understanding they would in time modifer their approach. Here I see people saying one is a bad Catholic for doing something that was fine for hundreds of years. I don’t think the cases are identical.

 

[Rich_C]

Going back to the Orans question that never got answered. So you won’t complain about people, out of their own will, do the Orans during the Our Father?

I don’t complain about it publicly. If someone asks me what I think, I’d say that at that moment in the Mass it’s the official posture father is supposed to use, and I think it blurs the special role of the priest at Mass for everyone to imitate him. But I’d never go as far as people here have gone in condemning it, getting angry and so on.

p.s. I have no problem with hand-holding, that is a matter of taste.