Praying the rosary at Mass

[jam070406]

Uh, “that’s your problem” is a response I usually hear if I’m discussing something with a person who’s a relativist.

My response had zero to do with relativism. It had everything to do with the rosary being prayed at Mass, which has been an acceptable practice. And the fact that you cannot deal with the fact is your problem. Maybe you should just let it go.

I’m guessing you’re not because Catholics are usually not relativists.

I’m definitely not a relativist.

Do you have an objective reason to give?

See above.

But again with my other question, why is the rosary ok while other devotions are not?

Really don’t know.

Buuut Melchior, we’re not talking about Religious here! We’re just talking about secular lay non-religious Catholics here. Geeeeeez.

And just to be clear, I’m only bringing this up because we’ve seen it on several other threads in this sub-forum when we bring up how they do things in Religious life. And usually, the response is “we’re not religious, so your example is not relevant”. One example.

It’s true though. I would not be nearly as able to be in contemplative prayer or fast as the religious do. I have to work and have a family to feed, etc.

Being serious now, I think what Augustine would say though is that your internal meditations should be on the Mass: the sacrifice, the actions, preparing to receive Jesus in the Eucharist (although in the Middle Ages it might have been more on whether or not you watered the cattle enough this morning and where they should be grazing, or what you should do with your sick oxen).

You’re assuming that they’re focus is not on the Mass and not preparing. And I think this is the problem in your thinking.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do you hold hands during the Our Father?

No but when I was Roman Catholic I used to do the Orans. I’d hold hands if they’re family.

 

[jam070406]

I’ll remember this the next time someone complains about;

• Orans posture.
• Holding hands during the Our Father.
• Writing in a prayer journal.
• Receiving the Eucharist on the tongue and/or standing.

The rosary is a devotional form of prayer and contemplation on the mysteries of the life and death of Jesus. Why would you complain about people praying??

 

[ConstantineTG]

The rosary is a devotional form of prayer and contemplation on the mysteries of the life and death of Jesus. Why would you complain about people praying??

Because people should be participating in Mass. The Mass is one hour a day, people can pray the Rosary the other 23 hours.

 

[Rich_C]

Nobody has advocated any such thing. Now you are being intellectually dishonest. You can go back to post #1 and read exactly what the OP has said on the matter.
I don’t know if you have been to the TLM but, there are moments of silence for prayer. The OP has said he joins his prayers, while praying the rosary, to the silent prayers being said by the Priest.
And he even specifically said he stops to pay attention at given times.
I, personally, have never prayed the rosary at Mass.

Some people just don’t get it, Jam. Try not to let it bother you, we’re all strangers on the Internet here. They probably think that participating at the EF Mass means reading word-by-word in your missal and making all the vocal responses, too. If they want to know what it’s like and why it’s different, they’ll look for themselves. You can’t convince everyone, especially here.

 

[jam070406]

No but when I was Roman Catholic I used to do the Orans. I’d hold hands if they’re family.

Why did you leave the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[ConstantineTG]

The only people who don’t get it are those who insist you can do something else during Mass aside from the Mass itself.

 

[jam070406]

The only people who don’t get it are those who insist you can do something else during Mass aside from the Mass itself.

The Mass that you no longer attend and left behind for a different Liturgy?

 

[curlycool89]

See, I think Augustine would argue that praying the Rosary enough, you can hit the auto-pilot when it because rote.

See, I’d be uncomfortable hitting that stage. It seems far too much what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 6:5.

I’ll remember this the next time someone complains about;

• Orans posture.
• Holding hands during the Our Father.
• Writing in a prayer journal.
• Receiving the Eucharist on the tongue and/or standing.

You forgot what people are wearing. Apparently someone actively praying a rosary is ok, but God help you if you’re distracting people with your neck, or ankles/knees, or forearms.

Have you ever seen a Catholic bishop, priest or deacon interfere, disrupt or rebuke someone for praying the rosary in Mass?

Not in Mass, but I’ve heard a priest-canonist say several times not to do it. (Cue the cries of “my priest says it’s ok no matter what your priest says”)

I beleive you are taking the words of the CCC and making it say something it is not.
No one is denying the privilege or the assembled Church to unite ourselves with Christ in offering His Sacrifice ourselves with Him.

And that’s all I’m saying. But it doesn’t work if you’re not fully there and actually paying attention. How are you uniting yourself to Christ in the Mass with the whole community if you’re off in your own world doing your own thing?

Again, you are taking the words of the CCC and making it say something it is not. No one is denying the Mass is public, that is not the point. The point is it is to the priest alone to state the words of consecration. A priest has authroity the layman does not possess. Ordination imprints a character which distinguishes a priest from a layman not just in degree, but essense. Mass without a congregation is possible, Mass with a priest is impossible.

Then why do we need to go to Mass at all if it’s just the priest? Logic dictates that there must be a community aspect if we are all to be there.

I wonder what the definition of ‘a service’ is in this context? What does it really mean?Just some observations in line with these thoughts …

Mass is a communal prayer.

It is not a crowd of people praying individually.

It is the community at work in worship, the focus needs to be on the common worship.

Exactly. We gather together and go to Mass together as a community. We’re not there as individuals.

Visitors, of course, are not necessarily worshiping, they may be observing. For example an anthropologist might peek in and make a study of the community’s efforts, but be also quite detached. A film crew might be hired in to record the event. A curious neighbor might, with sincerely good intention, want to watch and perhaps gain some familiarity. Some children might not understand much.

And in those cases, we would not count them as participating in Mass (well, a film crew could participate and film, but the anthropologist and visitors are only observing). If they were Catholic, we wouldn’t count their obligation as fulfilled.

Generally, abuses consist of the actions in the sanctuary or the musicians playing something inappropriate, not merely individual actions of the faithful in the pews. Apples and oranges.

Have you ever visited the L&S forum? People complain about everything as being liturgical abuses.

So I guess the faithful breaking out in spontaneous praise and worship during Mass isn’t a problem then, right? Because as long as the priest is doing his thing right then everything’s right in the world, right? Because people have said that it doesn’t really matter what the laity are doing.

Maybe I’ll try that if I go to a low-EF, since it doesn’t really seem to matter what the congregation does.

This is not done at the TLM. I’ve seen people do this at the OF. It’s really irrelevant to me.
I don’t do it and it’s not my duty to stop them.

Good deflection. But deflection doesn’t count as answering the question.

My response had zero to do with relativism.

When you say “that’s your problem”, that is a relativist answer. It means that something may be subjective and open to interpretation, as opposed to an objective answer.

 

[jam070406]

Good deflection. But deflection doesn’t count as answering the question.

I answered the question. And I’ll add, It’s irrelevant. For one… comparing a gesture to a prayer devotional is comparing apples and oranges.

When you say “that’s your problem”, that is a relativist answer. It means that something may be subjective and open to interpretation, as opposed to an objective answer.

No, not really. It means you take issue with an acceptable practice and there is nothing anyone can say to ease your concerns over it. I’ve suggested you let it go so that it’s no longer a problem (that people pray the rosary at Mass) for you. But you keep beating a dead horse.

 

[jam070406]

Some people just don’t get it, Jam. Try not to let it bother you, we’re all strangers on the Internet here. They probably think that participating at the EF Mass means reading word-by-word in your missal and making all the vocal responses, too. If they want to know what it’s like and why it’s different, they’ll look for themselves. You can’t convince everyone, especially here.

You’re absolutely right. It’s pointless.

 

[Rich_C]

Have you ever visited the L&S forum? People complain about everything as being liturgical abuses.

So I guess the faithful breaking out in spontaneous praise and worship during Mass isn’t a problem then, right? Because as long as the priest is doing his thing right then everything’s right in the world, right? Because people have said that it doesn’t really matter what the laity are doing.

Maybe I’ll try that if I go to a low-EF, since it doesn’t really seem to matter what the congregation does.

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not, so I don’t know what to say.

When I go to the EF Mass I already pray mostly my own prayers, in my owns words. Often I don’t take out my missal. I do little, and say less, because I’m praying. I know more or less what father is saying and I don’t need to make the responses so I pray for the Church and my personal intentions at appropriate times, so that they sort of match up with the intention of father’s official prayers at each point in the Mass.

That’s what you and several other posters here clearly don’t get. If you understood how many laity (encouraged by great spiritual writers) pray at Mass, you would realize that you’re saying that the way Catholics tend to pray at the EF Mass **is itself problematic, because it doesn’t have much of an external aspect and because it doesn’t always listen or read along to what father says.

That’s my only real beef with this thread. All the argument you have against praying the Rosary seem to apply to way so many of us normally pray at Mass anyway, Rosary aside.

 

[asd72]

First, I think you meant “discipline of the Church,” not teaching. Secondly, is there another source for this discipline than that one line in Pope Paul VI’s apostolic exhortion Cult of Mary?

When that was written in 1974, what we now call the EF Mass was under a de facto ban, so all Latin-rite Catholics were assumed to be operating under the GIRM for the Pauline missal, right?

Well, if the GIRM for the 1970 missal precludes saying the Rosary than I suppose one can’t really argue with that.

But in the EF Mass, there are no rubrics for the laity. Same Church, same canon law, of course, but different guidelines for behavior while at Mass.

I seems like it doesn’t apply to the EF Mass, at least.

Yes it is a teaching relating to discipline rather than doctrine I would think. But the principle of laity participation cannot logically apply to one form and not the other. Anyway I don’t see that I can say anything else. It just seems illogical to me.

 

[asd72]

Why did you leave the Roman Catholic Church?

Have you left the Catholic Church Constantine? I thought Orthodox Catholic was code for Eastern Catholic.

 

[Rich_C]

Yes it is a teaching relating to discipline rather than doctrine I would think. But the principle of laity participation cannot logically apply to one form and not the other. Anyway I don’t see that I can say anything else. It just seems illogical to me.

I’d be interested in hearing your view on this, and why you think it’s illogical to have a different kind of participation at the different forms of the Mass.

In any case, it is a fact that one form has guidelines for the laity that expect them to be doing or saying something nearly all the time (when not listening to the scripture readings), while the other form has no such guidelines. The Church doesn’t see this as “illogical.” Don’t you think these are two very different kinds of participation?

I be interested to hear what you think of my above post to curlycool.

 

[curlycool89]

Why did you leave the Roman Catholic Church?

Last time I checked, ConstantineTG was Eastern Catholic.

There are many good reasons for someone to request a transfer from Roman Catholic to an Eastern Rite (Ukrainian Catholic, if I’m not mistaken for ConstantineTG). Usually it that you feel better served in a Divine Liturgy or that you’re primarily attracted to Easter Christian spirituality. I consider our EC brethren to be our equals just as I consider the EF and OF going Catholics to be equals, so I don’t see why it matter why ConstantineTG decided to switch.

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not, so I don’t know what to say.

Ok, going behind the veil I’m using a bit of a wilder example to lead into a discussion on where the “limit” is or if it exists.

When I go to the EF Mass I already pray mostly my own prayers, in my owns words. Often I don’t take out my missal. I do little, and say less, because I’m praying. I know more or less what father is saying and I don’t need to make the responses so I pray for the Church and my personal intentions at appropriate times, so that they sort of match up with the intention of father’s official prayers at each point in the Mass.

That’s what you and several other posters here clearly don’t get. If you understood how many laity (encouraged by great spiritual writers) pray at Mass, you would realize that you’re saying that the way Catholics tend to pray at the EF Mass **is *itself ***problematic, because it doesn’t have much of an external aspect and because it doesn’t always listen or read along to what father says.

That’s my only real beef with this thread. All the argument you have against praying the Rosary seem to apply to way so many of us normally pray at Mass anyway, Rosary aside.

Ah, maybe that’s why I’d never be an EF Mass person (not now, and probably not, God willing, if/when I’m ordained).

I’ve heard this idea before, and I don’t get it. I go to Mass because it’s the Mass. When I want to take time for personal prayer, I’ll go sit/kneel before the tabernacle (in a small side-chapel, because that’s where it is) and pray before Mass or after Mass or during the day when I feel like it.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea of going to Mass for personal prayer. The Mass is our public and community time for worshiping God together; it’s not a time when a bunch of people happen to be in the same building with a priest who happens to be saying Mass, which seems to be much more what you’re describing. The Eucharist is a celebration of the whole Body of Christ (CCC 1136).

If this is what we had before, then I see why Vatican II was absolutely needed and why the council called for fuller participation of the laity. Because it seems that before you just happened to be in a room with a priest who was saying Mass; you were doing your own thing and he was doing his own thing and everyone else was doing their own thing.

 

[Dymphna82]

I don’t quite understand why anyone would pray the rosary at mass. I’ve prayed the rosary after mass and have thought about praying it maybe before mass. I think if I did it during mass, I’d feel like I’d ignored the whole thing.

But at least you’re praying.

 

[Rich_C]

Ok, going behind the veil I’m using a bit of a wilder example to lead into a discussion on where the “limit” is or if it exists.

Ah, maybe that’s why I’d never be an EF Mass person (not now, and probably not, God willing, if/when I’m ordained).

I’ve heard this idea before, and I don’t get it. I go to Mass because it’s the Mass. When I want to take time for personal prayer, I’ll go sit/kneel before the tabernacle (in a small side-chapel, because that’s where it is) and pray before Mass or after Mass or during the day when I feel like it.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea of going to Mass for personal prayer. The Mass is our public and community time for worshiping God together; it’s not a time when a bunch of people happen to be in the same building with a priest who happens to be saying Mass, which seems to be much more what you’re describing. The Eucharist is a celebration of the whole Body of Christ (CCC 1136).

If this is what we had before, then I see why Vatican II was absolutely needed and why the council called for fuller participation of the laity. Because it seems that before you just happened to be in a room with a priest who was saying Mass; you were doing your own thing and he was doing his own thing and everyone else was doing their own thing.

I think you still miss the point.

Let me take a prime example. In the Roman Canon there are six intentions: 1) the unity of the Church,** 2)** people with needs, 3) thanksgiving for the saints (break for the consecration), **4) **the holy souls in purgatory, 5) all sinners, 6) and all creation.

So I pray for **1) **the holy father and my bishop (right now particularly for the pope’s will be done with regard to the SSPX), then I pray 2) for the conversion of people I know and the sick, then I 3) thank my patron saints (then I focus on the consecration but in my own words, asking for mercy and that the Father will accept His Son’s Sacrifice from the priest), then I pray 4) for all my deceased relatives and friends by name, then for 5) my ongoing conversion and the conversion of all sinners, certain people I know by name, then for **6) **the healing of the disorder sin has created in our nation and around the world.

Do you see how I am “actively participating” without either hearing father’s prayers or reading them? I know the essential content of what is being said.

People here say praying the Rosary means ignoring the Mass and they have made their arguments such that they are saying that the way I pray (and many, many people at the EF) I am ignoring the Mass, also. That’s simply not true and I’m not about to judge that the person praying the Rosary at Mass isn’t doing exactly what I described above, in the context of the mysteries.

 

[Mike30]

I’ll remember this the next time someone complains about;

• Orans posture.
• Holding hands during the Our Father.
• Writing in a prayer journal.
• Receiving the Eucharist on the tongue and/or standing.

Sounds good to me. Then maybe, just maybe we could talk about things that really matter.

 

[jam070406]

Last time I checked, ConstantineTG was Eastern Catholic.

Yes, who, by his own words, was once a Latin Catholic. And I asked him why he is no longer.

There are many good reasons for someone to request a transfer from Roman Catholic to an Eastern Rite (Ukrainian Catholic, if I’m not mistaken for ConstantineTG). Usually it that you feel better served in a Divine Liturgy or that you’re primarily attracted to Easter Christian spirituality.

Agreed. But it also doesn’t give someone the right to come over and criticize the spirituality and practices of Traditional Latin Catholics.
I would never think to go to the Eastern Catholic forum and criticize their practices.
Like kissing icons during Liturgy.

I consider our EC brethren to be our equals

As do I. In fact I spent time in a Byzantine Parish. I found their Liturgy to be much more beautiful and reverent to the OF at my local Parish.

just as I consider the EF and OF going Catholics to be equals, so I don’t see why it matter why ConstantineTG decided to switch.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. This seems to be a dig, as if I don’t consider Catholics equal. We are all sinners. The practices are definitely different. As you alluded to by saying one can better feed certain people then the other practices.

I don’t think you’ll find an Eastern Catholic that would give up the Divine Liturgy for the OF you see at most Parishes.

Btw, the Ukrainian Priest/monk I spoke with at a nearby Parish didn’t have much good to say about the OF or the changes to Tradition after VII. He told me if I truly wanted Tradition to join their Church.