Praying to Dead Saints?

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They can as long as they pray to the Father in Jesus name.
Fabulous. Then you agree with us asking the Saints who are in perfect communion with Christ to pray for us. I am sure that those in heaven are praying to the Father in Jesus’ name as they are fully united with Him and would only pray in a way that is pleasing to Him.

So what is your objection now to Catholics asking those who are alive in Christ to pray for us?

God Bless,
Maria
 
Rev 5:13: And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!”

And the person who heard all this was somebody who wasn’t even perfected in heaven yet.
John was blessed to recieve this prophetic vision.
 
Fabulous. Then you agree with us asking the Saints who are in perfect communion with Christ to pray for us. I am sure that those in heaven are praying to the Father in Jesus’ name as they are fully united with Him and would only pray in a way that is pleasing to Him.

So what is your objection now to Catholics asking those who are alive in Christ to pray for us?

God Bless,
Maria
I am not in agreement. Why do you have a problem in what Jesus said? Jesus didn,t say ask my Heavenly Saints in my name.:confused:
 
John was blessed to recieve this prophetic vision.
Gee, as if those in heaven are not blessed as well. But even your evasion must acknowledge that God can allow humans in heaven to hear the prayers of those on earth. So you cannot argue that saints in heaven cannot hear the prayers of those on earth. Now all you can argue is that they do not. A claim which you cannot prove by scripture, I should add.

BTW, Rev 5:14: And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Yet more inhabitants of heaven who can hear the prayers of those on earth. Seems like God must be pretty free with this gift.
 
I am not in agreement. Why do you have a problem in what Jesus said? Jesus didn,t say ask my Heavenly Saints in my name.:confused:
Umm, you have no idea whether Jesus said that or not. Why do you assume that everything Jesus said or did is recorded in scripture, when scripture plainly says that is not the case?
 
Umm, you have no idea whether Jesus said that or not. Why do you assume that everything Jesus said or did is recorded in scripture, when scripture plainly says that is not the case?
Does God go against His own Word? If He tells you to do it then do it.
 
Gee, as if those in heaven are not blessed as well. But even your evasion must acknowledge that God can allow humans in heaven to hear the prayers of those on earth. So you cannot argue that saints in heaven cannot hear the prayers of those on earth. Now all you can argue is that they do not. A claim which you cannot prove by scripture, I should add.

BTW, Rev 5:14: And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Yet more inhabitants of heaven who can hear the prayers of those on earth. Seems like God must be pretty free with this gift.
Who are those four living creatures?
 
Does God go against His own Word? If He tells you to do it then do it.
He does tell us to do it. He tells us through His Church. Why do you reject the Church in this matter, yet accept the Church in the discernment of the New Testament canon? How can you justify such inconsistency?

And why is it that nobody in the Church, east or west, ever had a problem with praying to the saints before Protestants discovered the actual obvious truth in the bible 1500 years later? Can there really have been that many stupid or defiant Christians? Why did the entire Church never oppose praying to the saints? Could it be because they were simply doing what the apostles taught them?
 
Who are those four living creatures?
They aren’t God, that’s certain. And don’t leave out the elders. As I said, God seems to be pretty generous with this gift of letting those in heaven hear the prayers of those on earth.
 
Whats the purpose of communicating with the saints in heaven when we can go directly to Jesus. Jesus says whatever you ask my Father in my name it shall be granted to you. We have a direct line of communication with our Heavenly Father.😉

Of course we have. That’s basic.​

As we can & must rely on God for all good, why bother with love of neighbour ? With reading the Bible ? With going to Church ? Praying for others ? Obeying our consciences ? Taken to its logical conclusion, we could lie back in bed all our lives & do absolutely nothing at all - because God is always far better at doing His work, than we are at obeying Him.

Why communicate with the saints ? Because the lesser love is not cancelled by the greater, but is wholly dependent on it. And as Christ Himself intercedes for us, what is the basis for denying that His saints heaven do so ? Don’t they obey His Will ? Do they do their own instead of His ? Do they not hunger & thirst for His Glory & the Coming of His Kingdom, as in Heaven, so also on earth ?

Or do they have no care at all for His interests ? If they are His in any sense, it is impossible that they should not burn with longing that His Will should be done in His own Church. If that longing has been possible for men on earth to live by, so that they have counted all things well lost for His sake, the zeal & longing of the Blessed Who see God face to face cannot be weaker. And to long for the Will of God to be fully realised in all things, even the very least, in His Church, includes desiring the salvation of all in the Church - & to desire it, would be idle if it were not a spur to action. To long for the salvation of all in the Church, must be what they desire, because it is desired by Christ.

That He does desire it, most ardently, is proved by His High Priestly intercession in Heaven, by His prayer on earth, by His “gifts to men”, by His Death, & by all things that are His - that is just a few. That those whom He has given His own Sonship to, redeemed entirely, saved to the uttermost, showered with His grace, for whom He has abolished death, trodden satan underfoot, died the death of the Cross, made members of His own Body, made kings & priests & seated on his throne, should not both have & do His Will, is incredible. It is not able to believed 🙂

Because He has & does & gives all these things (& so much more as well), it follows that the saints are heaven take a very close interest in us who are on earth, not (of course) primarily for our sake, but for His Who is Our Lord & theirs. His acts are fruitful - they have results, for good. So if He is the Saviour, His salvation in rich in life-giving effects. What the Bible says in no single verse, it says if all are taken together - we know the saints pray for us, because this is the Christ Who is their Life & ours. And this Christ, is described to us in all the passages & verses hinted at: Scripture itself provides many (all ?) of the* data* for the Catholic belief. ##
 
Who are those four living creatures?

A combo of:​

More here:

net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Cherubim

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkaba ##
 
Heavenly Saints would have to be omnipresent in order for them to hear our prayers. Only God(Trinity) is omnipresent.
Who says? God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. He (The Trinity) is the only one who is all three. That does not mean that the saints or angels or even the devil himself can’t possess one of the three. Also you assume that it would have to be omnipresence to allow the saints to hear our our request for them to pray for us, but they could just be omniscient and KNOW that we are asking them to pray for us.

Anyway, it’s amazing how many topics come up in here that have been covered by the amazing articles here on catholic.com

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
 
I am not in agreement. Why do you have a problem in what Jesus said? Jesus didn,t say ask my Heavenly Saints in my name.:confused:
First of all, you are ignoring the fact that Jesus himself spoke with Moses and Elijah. Moses clearly died while Elijah went to heaven body and soul. Both were men that dwelled on earth but are now in heaven. Please note that Jesus spoke with these two shortly before going to the cross. There is something going on here that shows that Jesus receives some kind of benefit or consolation through this meeting similar to the ministering that he received from the angels after being tempted by Satan in the desert per Matt 4:11. Catholic prayer with the saints is in keeping with the actions of the Lord himself.

I pointed out in my first post that we have a clear example of intercession by heavenly saints illustrated in 2 Macc 15:11-16. I didn’t quote the passage but I will do so now. Unfortunately, non-Catholics do not accept this book of scripture as canonical. Nevertheless, even a non-Catholic has to give some credence to this because it is something that the Jews never denied and apparently have endorsed. Here is the quotation:

2 Macc 15:11-16
Having armed each one of them not so much with the safety given by shield and lance as with that confidence which springs from noble language, he encouraged them all by describing to them a convincing dream, a vision, as it were. What he had seen was this: Onias, the former high priest, that paragon of men, modest of bearing and gentle of manners, suitably eloquent and trained from boyhood in the practice of every virtue, Onias was stretching out his hands and praying for the whole Jewish community. Next, there appeared a man equally remarkable for his great age and dignity and invested with a marvellous and impressive air of majesty. Onias began to speak: “This is a man”, he said, “who loves his brothers and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” Jeremiah then stretched out his right hand and presented Judas with a golden sword, saying as he gave it, `Take this holy sword as a gift from God; with it you will shatter the enemy."

Please note that Judas Maccabeus is a Jewish hero and the “Feast of Lights”(a.k.a. Hanukah) recalls the struggle for religious freedom and commemorates the victory of the Jews, under his leadership, over the Hellenistic Syrians in the year 165 B.C.E. Even Jesus celebrated this Jewish holiday as he observed all of the jewish customs and holidays. If Jesus didn’t endorse this holiday and the actions and narratives concerning the Maccabees surely he would have said so.
 
Interesting, but how is praying to a saint different from conjuring him up?
When we pray to the Saints, they stay where they are, and we stay where we are.

When someone conjures up the dead, they are trying to bring the dead person or the spirit back into our world.
 
Let’s review here.
Of course I do . I always pray the way Jesus told us to.😉
If you ask others to pray for you, why can’t Catholics?
They can as long as they pray to the Father in Jesus name.
Fabulous. Then you agree with us asking the Saints who are in perfect communion with Christ to pray for us. I am sure that those in heaven are praying to the Father in Jesus’ name as they are fully united with Him and would only pray in a way that is pleasing to Him.

So what is your objection now to Catholics asking those who are alive in Christ to pray for us?

God Bless,
Maria
I am not in agreement. Why do you have a problem in what Jesus said? Jesus didn,t say ask my Heavenly Saints in my name.:confused:
Where do I say I have a problem with what Jesus said? Which specific words are you referring to? We are told to pray for one another. Do you disagree that brothers and sisters in Christ can and should pray for one another?

I am slightly confused. We are asking our brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us. I am not sure what you are saying.

Let me give an example to explain my postion.

You ask your righteous friend to pray for you, not neglecting to also pray for yourself but just wanting others to pray for you also. Your friend prays for you and asks in His name. Scripture tells us to pray for one another and the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. Correct? This is a good and holy thing to do. This is scriptural to pray for our brothers and sisters who are alive in Christ, yes?

Catholics ask their righteous friends who are alive in Christ not neglecting to pray for ourselves but just wanting others to pray for us also. They pray for us and ask in His name. Some of these brothers and sisters in Christ whom we ask to pray for us are the saints in heaven. But this is wrong?

How? How is it any different to ask a brother or sister alive in Christ to pray for us whether they are a saint in heaven or a saint on earth? We are all part of the Body of Christ.
 
Let’s review here.

How? How is it any different to ask a brother or sister alive in Christ to pray for us whether they are a saint in heaven or a saint on earth? We are all part of the Body of Christ.
Because we can see and talk with earthly saints.Heavenly saints are no longer of this earthly kingdom.We have Christ Jesus to interceed and hear our prayers.That is the Glory that His Father gave Him for being obedient to His will.
 
Because we can see and talk with earthly saints.Heavenly saints are no longer of this earthly kingdom.We have Christ Jesus to interceed and hear our prayers.That is the Glory that His Father gave Him for being obedient to His will.
Jesus is God - second member of the Trinity. He is and always has been already omniscient and omnipotent and our mediator and intercessor (minus the constraints of his earthly existence) as such. These aren’t additions or rewards.

But he DOES need, and have, members of his Body to do his will, just as we all need hands and feet and all our other organs. As a previous poster has said, ALL members of his body, are united as one in bringing forth his will, his kingdom and his glory. ‘On earth as in heaven’ (to paraphrase the Our Father).

Christ’s (God’s) body is His body, His will is His will, His kingdom is His kingdom and His interests are His interests - earthly, heavenly, doesn’t matter. Every member of His body is concerned in all of it.
 
Because we can see and talk with earthly saints.Heavenly saints are no longer of this earthly kingdom.We have Christ Jesus to interceed and hear our prayers.That is the Glory that His Father gave Him for being obedient to His will.
I’m going to slightly alter your own words:
I am not in agreement. Why do you have a problem in what Jesus said? Jesus didn,t say ask only my earthly Saints in my name.:confused:

BTW, we can talk to heavenly saints. That’s what prayer to saints is. Where are you getting this requirement that we must *see *someone to ask him to intercede for us? I don’t recall reading about such a restriction in the Bible.
 
Whats the purpose of communicating with the saints in heaven when we can go directly to Jesus. Jesus says whatever you ask my Father in my name it shall be granted to you. We have a direct line of communication with our Heavenly Father.😉
I apologize for sounding snarky, but I really want to take this thought of yours to the fullest implication…
  1. Why talk to people * at all *??? (Let alone pray for them or ask for their prayers.) I mean, if Jesus is SOLEY everything, why not just go out into the desert and talk only to him forever? (Granted, there is nothing wrong in that, but surely you can see via this thought experiment the purpose of community.) How do you justify ANY level of community at all (regardless of whether it is communion with dead or living) with this kind of thinking?
  2. Can Protestants chew bubble gum and walk at the same time?
Personally, I find adding the lines “St. So-and-So, pray for us” at the end of my prayers TO JESUS, not to be too terribly stumbling or robbing me of my “jesus time.”
  1. Just when is “direct connection” time? Do I lose connection with Jesus when I’m not actively praying? What about when I’m on the toilet? Do I forget him in my car? If my mind isn’t attending to him does he evaporate? Or, is he omnipresent in all my life, including the time I pray for the saints to aide me in my life.
  2. If you happened to be on the side of the road one day, your car tire having a flat, and you asked me for a ride to the gas station, how Christian would it be for me to say, “Why can’t you just go directly to Jesus? Ask the Father and it will be given unto you.”??
Perhaps, the saints are THE WAY he grants our prayers, in the same way a passing good samaritan may be THE WAY he answers the prayers of a stranded motorist…

Just some food for thought…

~Shaunna
 
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