P
planter654
Guest
No I pray for all those who have passed and lose on earth, but pray to Jesus directly.
God Bless
- Status
God Bless
I
Ignatius
Guest
Are you using the English word pray with the classical English meaning?
E
Evan
Guest
Try Rev 8: 3-4
3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the saints went up before God from the hand of the angel.
The saints there are praying to God. We pray to them, humbly asking them to bring our petitions before the altar.
F
Fidelis
Guest
No, I’m trying to say that Scripture doesn’t say that Scripture alone is sufficient. If it does please show me where.
No, I’m trying to say that, even though God knows everything, nowhere in Scripture does it say that everything he wants us to know is contained in Scripture. If it does please show me where.
Unlike some fundamentalist Protestants, NOT in a God of my own making, but in the one revealed in the Bible.
T
Tom
Guest
I’m not trying to pick a fight, simply pointing out that his assertion that if it isn’t specifically stated in the Bible, and we can’t do it, is wrong. It isn’t “unbiblical” to do things which are not specifically stated in the Bible. The Bible doesn’t tell me to pray before my meal, yet I do, is this “unbiblical”? Of course not, but show me in Scripture where it says you can! It doesn’t, it doesn’t need to! Saints are alive and well in heaven, they aren’t on vacation, God uses them, they hear our prayers, they are one with God. They are a gift given to us by God, why would I reject them? No one anywhere says you must pray to any saint. You don’t want to? Fine, don’t, but please don’t tell me I can’t or it’s unbiblical, you’re wrong.
E
emeraldisle
Guest
So you are backtracking on what you previously said.No, I’m trying to say that Scripture doesn’t say that Scripture alone is sufficient. If it does please show me where.
No, I’m trying to say that, even though God knows everything, nowhere in Scripture does it say that everything he wants us to know is contained in Scripture. If it does please show me where.
Unlike some fundamentalist Protestants, NOT in a God of my own making, but in the one revealed in the Bible.
All Scripture is inspired by God and God is all sufficient therefore all the Scripture which He inspired men to write is totally sufficient.
Now nowhere in God’s inspired all sufficient Word, does God tell His children to pray to one another. The all sufficient Word of God does instruct christians to pray to God for one another.
The all sufficient all knowing God didn’t make any mistakes when He gave us His all sufficient inspired Word. It’s very clear that God didn’t instruct His children to pray to one another because He is their Heavenly Father and He wants His children to pray to Him.
P
planter654
Guest
I agree with you Tom and I understand your point. Yes I believe Saints are eternal in heaven with God also, and who truly can say this one is a saint no that one isn’t, only God knows. Mother Theresa said we are all called to become Saints and to do so, you do not have to do extradordinary things. It is the little things we do that become extradordinary when done in “LOVE”
God Bless Tom—my father’s name was Tom and I am sure he is waiting for me to with God …very little child of God
E
emeraldisle
Guest
ALL christians are saints, so these Scriptures refer to ALL the prayers of ALL the saints.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Let’s run with that use of the term “saints.” So why don’t you ask saints in heaven to pray for us? I am still wondering why you think they cannot do this for us.
P
planter654
Guest
No one is saying the saints can’t, but I am not there to tell you any different.
But why would we not ask them "to join us in giving praise glory, thanks giving to God with us in His presents. The saints are not “JUST IN” Heaven, with God.
THEY ARE NOW "ONE’… “IN GOD”! In the “ONE BODY” of Jesus Christ, High Priest for over all our ‘ONE’. Stop the division in GOD’S HOUSE, GOD’S KINGDOM, GOD’S FAMILY.
When we give Praise, Glory, Thanksgiving, in asking, in talking, we in giving Honour, all are “IN ONE GOD”! When God is Glorfied, so also is His son, Our Dear Mother, St. Joseph, Moses, Peter, Issac etc etc. all are sharing in that Honour Glory "IN GOD FOR ALL ARE “ONE”.
There is only “ONE” thought that is “God’s” thought, His will, His desire. All move as “ONE”. I do not know how to explain it.
God said: He knows “what we need” before we even know or ask.
But Jesus taught us you do not ask, seek knock to know, simply ask me talk to me…Jesus did not ask Moses to prayer for him for he knew. Jesus talk to GOD, his father.
On earth pray for one another, ask them, to pray to whom “GOD” for us.
God Bless
D
dacoobob
Guest
Hmm. Sounds a bit like Pantheism to me. The saints do not merge into God or become indistinguishable from God after death. God knows what we need before we ask it, but he commands us to ask anyway!
W
wolfwredroses
Guest
Trick question, to pray to ANYONE but God is idolatry. There is ONE mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus. “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” I Timothy 2:5. So you may pray to God OR Jesus ONLY…and since Jesus was God, well, no, you are not to pray TO anyone else. Why would you want to anyway? Curious, did you see the movie “Bruce Almighty”? How would ANY human being, (I care not that they be dead or alive) be able to HEAR the prayer of thousands of people much less answer them? Hebrews 8:6, “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator”
G
guanophore
Guest
Welcome to CAF, wolfwredroses.
When we use the term “pray” in the context of asking the saints for intercession, all it means is to “ask”. It is not idolatrous to ask others to pray for us.
I did not find the “trick” question?
G
guanophore
Guest
Exactly. Catholics ask for prayer from anyone we consider an effectual fervent prayer warrior. Since we know that death does not separate us, and that Jesus only has One Body, we are not troubled by the fact that they have passed from this world into the next. We do not grieve as those who have no hope.
W
wolfwredroses
Guest
Thank you for the welcome… being raised Catholic and converting OUT of the church has seemed to ostersize me from catholics so I appreciate you openness to a dissenting view. What I considered “trick” was the intimation of the word “anyone”. The passage I quoted itself out of Timothy says that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between man and God. But even that very passage calls Him, “the man”, not referring to His divinity. Of course it IS His divinity that allows Him exclusivity for that role. It is WRONG to pray TO anyone other than God. That said, I’d love to pray FOR you and TO my God on your behalf, but I have ONLY one to pray to. Catholics pray TO Mary, TO (so called) Saints, and the Bible NEVER teaches nor endorses that. In my understanding of the First commandment it is sin. See Exodus 20:2-5
F
fbl9
Guest
i got a trick question for you wolfwredroses why is your user name a clip from a song by meatloaf’s bat out of hell?when one is dead how are they still human?i take it you do not pray to the Holy Spirit.if it was left up to the baptists the truth of the trinity would not be known. why cause it is not spelled out word for word in the book called the bible.one more thing in older versions of the KJB why are the gospel writers refered to as “saints”?i saw that movie bruce almighty i did not like it bordered on being blasphemous(sic)
W
wolfwredroses
Guest
Your words seemed a little malicious, I’m thick skinned, of course you can pray to the third person of the Trinity. Yet note of all Jesus’ own prayers you do not find Him doing so. We find in Acts the Holy Spirit speaking to us… Acts 13:2 "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” and Acts 20:23, “I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me.” Acts 28:25, "They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:” The trinity is true, real, just that each have a different purpose in how God relates to us, I John 5:7, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”
You simply are not to pray TO any human being, who can answer prayers but God?
You simply are not to pray TO any human being, who can answer prayers but God?
G
guanophore
Guest
This is a very good point, and brings out the truth that those in Christ are never separated from God.
It is interesting that some Christians believe in eternal security,and insist that nothing can separate us from God in this life (including sin), and yet, believe that saints are separated from God by death.
Rom 8:35-9:1
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will hardship, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all day long;
we are accounted as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
They can only “hear” us (they don’t have ears, remember) through their unity with God.
Indeed, this is very Catholic of you to say!
However, Paul equally wrote that we should follow his pattern of behavior/way of life. Asking the intercessions of those who have gone on before us is part of that lifestyle that has come down to us from the Apostles. Paul was clear that Jesus has only One Body, and that death cannot separate us from Him. Therefore, we are not separated from one another by death either.
That would not be necessary, since the verses are about Christians praying for one another, and death does not change our connection with each other as members of His One Body.
Did you ever wonder how all the folks listed in Heb. 11 can form a 'great cloud of witnesses" if they are not aware of what is going on here? How can one be a “witness” if one is deaf and blind?
“Soul sleep” is a tradition of man, invented to promote anti-Catholic bias.
We know those who are in heaven that have been revealed to us. The founders of the Church did ask Jesus, and we can trust their teaching, since they speak for Christ.
Good point! It does not have to be complicated. Simple acceptance of the Gospel as it has been handed down to us from the Apostles cures a lot of these problems.
- Status