Praying to Mary doesn't feel right

[bakaten]

Dear all,

I for myself, agree that there is no obligation for us to ask intercession from Our Heavenly Mother. Will She feel offended? I don’t think so. Will The Lord feel offended? I don’t think so.

But guess what? I think The Lord will feel offended if we start finding an excuse to discredit Her role in our salvation (She is The Mother of God) and that is the fact that can not be changed. And the later posts has been greatly pointing to that direction instead of the original topic.

Now regarding the bible, again I would like to point out that we can’t just take one part of the bible and mix it with the other and comes up with our own conclusion, rather we have to look at the whole and try to understand what the author (and the Holy Spirit who guiding him) really wants us to understand.

One more thing that people tend to forget, that Catholic teaching extend beyond the bible. We have traditional teaching that have been handed out from the first disciples. Together they create the basic teaching of the church.

I met a guy from an orthodox church who said his church can be traced back to St James. Over there, veneration to Mary and asking her intercession constituted a large part (second to Eucharist) in their religious practices. So the question is, if the first apostles consult Mary and ask Her intercession for their work, so why not we?

 

[bakaten]

As a boy was Jesus obedient when He chose to stay at the Synagogue for three days without telling his parents? Mary says, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been looking for you. We were so worried! " Ask any mother or father how they would feel if their child did this (disappeared for 3 days) and i’m sure they’d tell you it was disobedient.

Does that mean that Jesus sinned? Of course not. It means that you are misinterpreting the necessity of Jesus’ blind obedience in the commandment. And if blind obedience is not required of Jesus, your entire premise falls apart. (Nor is it required of any of us. If my father directed me to become mormon, i’d refuse.)

Jesus’ actions as a boy at the synagogue demonstrate how Mary’s will was not fully aligned with Jesus’ will at all times.

I’ve not heard that Catholics believe Mary to be omniscient. It seems a human, even a sinless human, would have to be omniscient to be able to direct Jesus to do things and always be within His will. Do Catholics believe Mary omniscient?

Regarding your “All of this is plainly biblical” comment, i’d ask you, are all Protestants just stupid then? hmmm.

Nope,
Mary is not omniscient, neither that Jesus being directed by His Mother’s will.
But neither the whole passage is written for the purpose to show that Mary is not aligned with His will.

So why Our Mother is was so worried looking for Her Son? Because the Father let Her be. And why is it? Because She is part of the tools for our salvation, a role she gladly accept to. And i doing so, all Her action’s becoming a role model for us to follow.

What the passage means us to understand is His word “Did you not know that** I must be busy with my Father’s affairs?**” This is exactly to show us that our duty to the Father take precedence over our other worries.

But let’s dig a bit more on the passage. The bolded part above is also being translated (literally) as I Must be in My Father’s house.Did we see that actually the whole passage is following Mary instead of Jesus. Doesn’t it remind us that sometimes we are to busy with our worries that we lost Jesus who was with us. And that exactly what the Lord ask us to do, to follow Mary’s example, to find Him in the “Temple”.

Now, about the wedding in Cana. This part also a bit tricky. Let’s have what Jesus said again. “Woman, why turn to me? My hour has not come yet.”

When Our Blessed Lord mentioned His hour, we can’t really interpreted it as the time to work miracles. If we look at John 7:30;8:20;13:1;17:1, all the “Hour” that Jesus spoke of refer to His final glorification and His return to The Father.

The bolded part is lost in transaction. The literal meaning of the word is “what is it to You and to Me” a semitic which is often use throughout Old Testament (Jg 11:12; 2S16:10) and New Testament (Mt 8:29; Lk 4:34 etc).

Now there are only two instances Jesus called His Mother, Woman (the underline part), being the other is John 19:26. If we look at those passage, it becomes clear that Jesus meant the word “Woman” addressed to Mary to be interpreted as His Mom as well as Mother of all man (aka The Second Eve; Blessed art Thou among women).

So basically, Jesus was saying to His Mother, “Look Mom, this has nothing to do with Us. It’s not My time to be glorified yet”

So is She interceding for us? Yes She is. Will Jesus helps us without her intercession? I don’t know. But what more important is the word she said next, " Do whatever that He tells you" which just means simply to tell us leave everything to God, trust in Him, obey His Law and He will save you. Sometimes I just pictured Mother Mary turn to us and said," Listen, Don’t mind Him. Just put all your trust in Him, and He’ll do whatever necessary for you"

So I guess it’s not really a matter whether asking Mother Mary’s intercession will lead us to our intention will be fulfilled or not. The most important thing is, by praying through Her, She also impart Her wisdom and experience to us on how to follow Christ by following Her example on humility, faith, hope and charity again and again. And that is a much more greater fruit than our own need, right?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Nope,
Mary is not omniscient, neither that Jesus being directed by His Mother’s will.
But neither the whole passage is written for the purpose to show that Mary is not aligned with His will.

That’s an interesting point. If Mary, and this applies to the saints, too, is not omniscient, then how does she even hear however many hundreds of millions of prayers head her way every day, much less have the capability to act on them?

When Our Blessed Lord mentioned His hour, we can’t really interpreted it as the time to work miracles. If we look at John 7:30;8:20;13:1;17:1, all the “Hour” that Jesus spoke of refer to His final glorification and His return to The Father.

You aren’t suggesting He is talking about that hour, do you?

The bolded part is lost in transaction. The literal meaning of the word is “what is it to You and to Me” a semitic which is often use throughout Old Testament (Jg 11:12; 2S16:10) and New Testament (Mt 8:29; Lk 4:34 etc).

Now there are only two instances Jesus called His Mother, Woman (the underline part), being the other is John 19:26. If we look at those passage, it becomes clear that Jesus meant the word “Woman” addressed to Mary to be interpreted as His Mom as well as Mother of all man (aka The Second Eve; Blessed art Thou among women).

So basically, Jesus was saying to His Mother, “Look Mom, this has nothing to do with Us. It’s not My time to be glorified yet”

You could be right. It seems like a lot of extrapolation based on the time Jesus uses the word “woman” one other time.

So is She interceding for us? Yes She is. Will Jesus helps us without her intercession? I don’t know. But what more important is the word she said next, " Do whatever that He tells you" which just means simply to tell us leave everything to God, trust in Him, obey His Law and He will save you. Sometimes I just pictured Mother Mary turn to us and said," Listen, Don’t mind Him. Just put all your trust in Him, and He’ll do whatever necessary for you"

I’ve seen it that way before, too. She didn’t actually say, “My Son is going to fix your problem.” She just said, “do what He tells you to do.”

But is that interceding? But earlier you said Jesus is not directed by His mother’s will. He wasn’t going to concern Himself with an issue, then she spoke up, then He decided to. It isn’t like He didn’t know as well as she did they were about out of wine. Sounds like He is following her will to me. “Directed to,” or “voluntarily submit,” either way you have Jesus subjecting Himself to Mary’s will – which does not match what He would have done without her intervention.

So I guess it’s not really a matter whether asking Mother Mary’s intercession will lead us to our intention will be fulfilled or not. The most important thing is, by praying through Her, She also impart Her wisdom and experience to us on how to follow Christ by following Her example on humility, faith, hope and charity again and again. And that is a much more greater fruit than our own need, right?

Makes more sense to me.

Alan

 

[freerf]

I didn’t say that God did. God permits oversights, for example, permitting Paul to forget who he baptized (1 Corinthians 1:17).

This belies a verse-flinging mindset that sees the Bible as a code to be cracked and not as a vehicle for divine instruction with one integral meaning. Speaking of which…

[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]

He didn’t make an exception for Revelation because it was too “mysterious” or “complicated.” Scripture is meant to instruct, period. It’s so ironic that Protestants get on CAF and tell the Catholics what to believe when they don’t even know how to interpret one whole book of the Bible.

In His humanity or His divinity? Obviously in the latter, but He made himself subject to a human nature with all of the limitations that go along with it. He hungered, thirsted and wept.

Actually squashing dissent is something that Protestants do. Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, and for something more recent, don’t forget Exhibit D (ugh…)

Wow. I’m moving on, Cat. Please continue to “let your light shine”. You’re doing the Catholic Church a great service. BTW, does anyone know if it is possible to block obnoxious posters?

 

[freerf]

But she never said anything like that, did she? Neither dd she later say ‘son, don’t take up that cross, don’t go to Calvary’. She could have easily - after all Peter expressed dismay when Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to die.

But she didn’t. Not even at that most awful time, a time when surely any mother would say ‘son, don’t do it’. And if she could accept God’s will even when it was hardest - during his passion - surely she could accept it when He was lost in the Temple. And so she does at all times.

good point.

 

[bakaten]

Hi Alan,

That’s an interesting point. If Mary, and this applies to the saints, too, is not omniscient, then how does she even hear however many hundreds of millions of prayers head her way every day, much less have the capability to act on them?

I don’t know. But IMHO, omniscient is one of the characteristics of God, and should reserved solely for God and God alone. However in my opinion, maybe God through His graces allowed Our Blessed Mother and Saints a certain degree of “power and wisdom” in order to hear our prayer and intercede for us.

You aren’t suggesting He is talking about that hour, do you?

I’m not sure what do you mean by that hour. But the one that I was talking about is His passion, death and resurrection. (John 13:1)

I’ve seen it that way before, too. She didn’t actually say, “My Son is going to fix your problem.” She just said, “do what He tells you to do.”

But is that interceding? But earlier you said Jesus is not directed by His mother’s will. He wasn’t going to concern Himself with an issue, then she spoke up, then He decided to. It isn’t like He didn’t know as well as she did they were about out of wine. Sounds like He is following her will to me. “Directed to,” or “voluntarily submit,” either way you have Jesus subjecting Himself to Mary’s will – which does not match what He would have done without her intervention.

Yes you are right. But let’s not forget, Jesus’ knowledge is unbound by time. He knows what will happen, so we can not totally say that He is really not willing to help.

Actually, I’m not really comfortable with the word “subjecting” which quite a strong word. The way I see it, He did what He did for two reasons, the first because the servants did what He told them to do, and the second, which is really a main reason, is His love for Her and Her unceasing faith and love for Him and us (the bride).

Remember the story of the healing of the daughter of the Canaanite woman (Mt15:21-28)? Recall what word, Jesus used to described the Canaanite? Dog. But through her faith, what He said next? “Let your wish be granted”. Is Jesus really subjected to her will (the Canaanite woman)? I don’t think so. But He heals the woman’s daughter out of her faith and love for her and her love for her daughter.

If He did that to “a dog” how much more do you think The Lord will granted a petition of a Woman whose faith is greater than any of us, who is without sin and to top it all is His own Mother who is pleading unceasingly for our cause.

Peace be with you

 

[MS_SURVEYOR]

Remember the story of the healing of the daughter of the Canaanite woman (Mt15:21-28)? Recall what word, Jesus used to described the Canaanite? Dog. But through her faith, what He said next? “Let your wish be granted”. Is Jesus really subjected to her will (the Canaanite woman)? I don’t think so. But He heals the woman’s daughter out of her faith and love for her and her love for her daughter.

If He did that to “a dog” how much more do you think The Lord will granted a petition of a Woman whose faith is greater than any of us, who is without sin and to top it all is His own Mother who is pleading unceasingly for our cause.

Peace be with you

*The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

** 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”**

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment. *

 

[LilyM]

That’s an interesting point. If Mary, and this applies to the saints, too, is not omniscient, then how does she even hear however many hundreds of millions of prayers head her way every day, much less have the capability to act on them?

Well, omniscience literally means ‘all-knowing’. It doesn’t require them to be ALL knowing to hear and attend to the finite number of prayers that are directed to each of them. Remember they intercede for us with God, who does all the ‘heavy lifting’ so to speak.

It does perhaps require that they have more knowledge and power in heaven than they did on earth …

But isn’t that to be expected? Why would heavenly beings be subject to all the same old frustrating physical limitations that earthly beings are? What would be the point of heaven if we were exactly the same?

 

[Anthony_V]

That’s an interesting point. If Mary, and this applies to the saints, too, is not omniscient, then how does she even hear however many hundreds of millions of prayers head her way every day, much less have the capability to act on them?

All saints in Heaven have beatific vision, and are infused with knowledge. Unlike the souls in purgatory (who are indeed holy), they experience The Word in a fashion such that they can know our petitions.
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]

Indeed, even the angels pray for us! So this is a phenomenon of active communion with God, rather than one of passive surrender (such as the souls in purgatory). Still, the question of “how” is begged more often than not. This is my own speculation (which is subject to error in any form or fashion):

1. All beings in Heaven can hear prayers

• God can hear prayers
• Angels can hear prayers
• Saints can hear prayers

1. All active beings can petition to those in Heaven, and to God himself

• Angels can pray for us, and the holy souls, to God
• Saints can pray for us, and the holy souls, to God
• Our brothers and sisters on earth can pray for us, and the holy souls, to God and those in Heaven

1. Omniscience is a characteristic of God alone

• Not angels, nor saints, nor holy souls, nor our brothers and sisters are omniscient

1. Beatific Vision involves sharing in God’s omniscience, according to his will. Otherwise, those in Heaven would not be able to hear our prayers; we know that they do.

• See 1)

1. All saints and angels, including Mary, can hear our prayers by sharing in God’s omniscience, to the extent of his will, through beatific vision.