Praying to Mary doesn't feel right

[Waiting]

Let’s try this again…

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=8716

You and I are the “Human” in that chart.

There is a commandment about obeying one’s mother. Jesus is without sin (2 Cor 2:51), so it goes without saying that He would never break the Fourth Commandment. Thus the reference to Exodus 20:12, etc. But since we belong to the Body of Christ, and Mary is the Mother of that Body, Mary is also our Mother, as Revelation 12 and the dialogue between Jesus and John as the former hung on the cross makes clear. Thus we have a duty to obey Her as well if we want to please God. All of this is plainly biblical.

Mary didn’t order Jesus to work a miracle. She expressed a need, and asked Him to help. He could have, with compassion, told her that His time hadn’t come, and that He was sorry that He couldn’t help. That would have been the end of that. But Jesus cannot turn His back on a real need. Also, He loved and honored His mother, and so He complied with her request. I don’t believe the commandment to honor your parents fits this situation.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Mary didn’t order Jesus to work a miracle. She expressed a need, and asked Him to help. He could have, with compassion, told her that His time hadn’t come, and that He was sorry that He couldn’t help. That would have been the end of that. But Jesus cannot turn His back on a real need. Also, He loved and honored His mother, and so He complied with her request. I don’t believe the commandment to honor your parents fits this situation.

She did express a need, and she told them to do what He tells them to do, but I don’t recall she actually told Him to do anything at all.

So if you get down to it, Mary just made an observation. Jesus asked what concern it is of His. We don’t know if there was some body language missing here where she might have responded nonverbally or maybe even undocumented. But we have her expressing a need, and His meeting the need even though it was in His plan to do that sort of thing yet.

I wonder if anyone other than His mother said “they have no more wine,” whether Jesus would have come to the same conclusion that He should make some more. For that matter, did Mary even know that Jesus had to power to make water into wine, or was she just giving control of the party to Jesus … figuring He was the best one to decide what to do in their predicament – embarrassing to those throwing the party.

Alan

 

[TimothyH]

In the discussion about the Cana Passage as ti relates to Mary, It seems to me that the bolded section gets overlooked in it’s significance within the passage and what is recorded later in Scripture. Consider…
3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
First, when Mary brings the concern to Him what is His response…If anything it is a rebuff. Jesus, being God, knew that the wine would fail and that He would take care of the situation…Mary did not need to tell Him. So her request to him was superfluous. In fact later, we are told that God knows what we need before we need it, so we are not to worry and be anxious about things.
Second, Look at what Mary tells the servants…“Do Whatever He tells You”. Wonderful advice from our Dear Mother. Now - Look later at what He tells us when asked about how to pray in Mt 6:9-15
9 Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread; 12 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; 13 And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. 14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

and in Luke 11:1-4

1 He was praying in a certain place, and when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, "When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread; 4 and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation.” (RSV)

So - Mary’s last statement recorded in Scripture was to “Do whatever He tells you” and Jesus “Tells us” to pray “Our Father”…

As another point on your statement above that Mary knew Jesus “would honor her request”…Something often used to signal that Jesus can’t say no to Mary…
Did Jesus perform the miracle to “honor her request” or did He do it because “His Hour” had come?? If it was to honor her request, then why did he say “what is this to you and me??” No - Jesus performed the miracle because it served the purposes of His ministry and mission. He did not do it to honor His mother’s request.

I too believe that Jesus is pleased when we honor His Mother. After all, she’s our Mother too. Do we, God’s servants, not honor her best by doing what she told the servants at Cana - in her final recorded words in Scripture?
My Mother has told me (a lowly servant and least among the brothers) to “Do whatever He tells you to do” - and, in regards to prayer, He has told me to pray…“Our Father…”
So, in this I do NOT ignore Mary, but Honor her and am obedient to Her in the proper order of salvation.

Mary’s last statement in scripture is at the wedding in Cana. But she also appears at the end of Jesus’ ministry, at the foot of the Cross. Don’t be fooled by thinking that because she has no spoken lines that she has no role.

What John is doing is “Bookending”, a literary technique where he puts markers in certain places to tell us something very specific. In this case, Mary is present in a very important way at the very start of Jesus’ ministry and present in a very important way at the very end of Jesus’ ministry. John is telling us that Mary was there from start to finish. His message is that she was there from the beginning to the end.

John goes further. Much futher. John tells us that Mary is a queen.

**A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. *(Revelation 12:1)
Mary is a queen just like Bathsheba was a queen for her son Solomon, and just like all the queens, mother’s of their sons who were king, were all throughout the Old Testament. Read Chronicals. All the mother’s of the kings are listed, all of them queens. The mother of the king was the queen.

And in the monarchy of the Old Testament, you went to the queen to get things from the king. You didn’t go directly to the king unless you were one of his trusted advisors. No one would dare approach the king directly. To approach the king directly was to risk your life. Even the king’s wives had to ask permission to enter the presence of the King. People went through the queen. Read 1 Kings 2, how Adonijah goes to Bathsheba the Queen to ask a favor of Solomon.

Adonijah, son of Haggith, came to Bathsheba, the mother of Solomon. “Do you come in peace?” she asked. “In peace,” he answered, and he added, “I have something to say to you.” She replied, “Speak.” (1 Kings 2:13-14)

This is the dialog between a Queen and her royal subject. Mary’s dialog with the servants at the wedding in Cana is a similar dialog, a royal command from a queen to her subjects on behalf of her son the king. Scripture has revealed Christ to us as a King. This cannot be denied. And the way it was in the time of Jesus was that you went to the queen to ask a favor of the king. That is how God has revealed Christ’s kingdom to us, as a monarchy with both King and Queen, and how we go to the king has been described clearly in the typology of the Old Testament, revelation to John in the Book of Revelation, and in Mary’s intercession at the wedding.

It is God’s plan. Its how the Kingdom is set up. Mary is Queen of Heaven and Earth. That is dogma.

-Tim-

 

[FCEGM]

. . .

One thing that has occurred to me - and I must prayerfully consider - is how my “bible base” view may be unduly limiting my understanding.
I believe in Holy Mother Church because I believe Christ and I believe that She speaks authoritatively for Christ in the World. So perhaps my rather limited view of Our Lady’s role based on what is recorded in Scripture is not giving due weight to what Christ has continued to teach us through the good offices of His Church.
As I say - I will need to give this some consideration in prayer…

Yes, James, you have to understand that Our Lord teaching us how to pray didn’t stop with the “Our Father” but that He continues to teach us through His Church. Through His Church He teaches that it is good and efficacious to turn to His Mother in prayer our needfulness.

A book I’ve mentioned before in other threads about the Blessed Virgin’s role in Salvation History is Garrigou-Lagrange’s The Mother of Our Saviour and Our Interior Life; this would be a superb resource for you and anyone interested in developing a deeper and effective appreciation for Mary, our Mother.

 

[Nelka]

Where is the Hail Mary in the Bible?

:bible1:

 

[MS_SURVEYOR]

**Luke 1 **

Christ’s Birth Announced to Mary

6 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”[c]
29 But when she saw him,[d] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

Mary Visits Elizabeth

39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord.”

 

[Waiting]

She did express a need, and she told them to do what He tells them to do, but I don’t recall she actually told Him to do anything at all.

So if you get down to it, Mary just made an observation. Jesus asked what concern it is of His. We don’t know if there was some body language missing here where she might have responded nonverbally or maybe even undocumented. But we have her expressing a need, and His meeting the need even though it was in His plan to do that sort of thing yet.

I wonder if anyone other than His mother said “they have no more wine,” whether Jesus would have come to the same conclusion that He should make some more. For that matter, did Mary even know that Jesus had to power to make water into wine, or was she just giving control of the party to Jesus … figuring He was the best one to decide what to do in their predicament – embarrassing to those throwing the party.

Alan

You have to remember that Mary lived with her Son for thirty years before Jesus began His public ministry. She knew from the first visit of the Archangel Gabriel that her child was the Son of God. We don’t have a clue whether Jesus worked any miracles in private before His first public miracle at Cana. However, when Mary turned to the waiters at the wedding in Cana and said, “Do whatever He tells you,” she doesn’t come across as doubting that something great would happen. She knew her son and His capabilities. Also, she knew that if He performed a miracle, that there was now no turning back. She was actually giving the world its first introduction to the messiah.

 

[freerf]

Let’s try this again…

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=8716

You and I are the “Human” in that chart.

There is a commandment about obeying one’s mother. Jesus is without sin (2 Cor 2:51), so it goes without saying that He would never break the Fourth Commandment. Thus the reference to Exodus 20:12, etc. But since we belong to the Body of Christ, and Mary is the Mother of that Body, Mary is also our Mother, as Revelation 12 and the dialogue between Jesus and John as the former hung on the cross makes clear. Thus we have a duty to obey Her as well if we want to please God. All of this is plainly biblical.

As a boy was Jesus obedient when He chose to stay at the Synagogue for three days without telling his parents? Mary says, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been looking for you. We were so worried! " Ask any mother or father how they would feel if their child did this (disappeared for 3 days) and i’m sure they’d tell you it was disobedient.

Does that mean that Jesus sinned? Of course not. It means that you are misinterpreting the necessity of Jesus’ blind obedience in the commandment. And if blind obedience is not required of Jesus, your entire premise falls apart. (Nor is it required of any of us. If my father directed me to become mormon, i’d refuse.)

Jesus’ actions as a boy at the synagogue demonstrate how Mary’s will was not fully aligned with Jesus’ will at all times.

I’ve not heard that Catholics believe Mary to be omniscient. It seems a human, even a sinless human, would have to be omniscient to be able to direct Jesus to do things and always be within His will. Do Catholics believe Mary omniscient?

Regarding your “All of this is plainly biblical” comment, i’d ask you, are all Protestants just stupid then? hmmm.

 

[freerf]

I don’t think you were lost but rather that you had yet to start on the journey.

With defenders of the faith like this, who needs enemies?

 

[Cat_Herder]

As a boy was Jesus obedient when He chose to stay at the Synagogue for three days without telling his parents? Mary says, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been looking for you. We were so worried! " Ask any mother or father how they would feel if their child did this (disappeared for 3 days) and i’m sure they’d tell you it was disobedient.

Does that mean that Jesus sinned? Of course not. It means that you are misinterpreting the necessity of Jesus’ blind obedience in the commandment.

I still don’t see where you think there is sin in any of that exchange. There is no evidence that Jesus’s remaining at the Temple was anything other than an oversight. Oversights and accidents are not sins. Sin requires a complete consent of the will (see Heb. 10:26-29).

And if blind obedience is not required of Jesus, your entire premise falls apart. (Nor is it required of any of us. If my father directed me to become mormon, i’d refuse.)

No actual command having been given (i.e., “leave this Temple right now!”) having been given, there can be no disobedience.

Jesus’ actions as a boy at the synagogue demonstrate how Mary’s will was not fully aligned with Jesus’ will at all times.

Your example above having proven inapplicable, I suggest you turn to the Wedding at Cana to understand the interplay between Jesus and His Mother.

I’ve not heard that Catholics believe Mary to be omniscient. It seems a human, even a sinless human, would have to be omniscient to be able to direct Jesus to do things and always be within His will. Do Catholics believe Mary omniscient?

I think you need to read the Book of Revelation.

Regarding your “All of this is plainly biblical” comment, i’d ask you, are all Protestants just stupid then? hmmm.

I have never called you stupid and yet you have said some very harsh things against me.

 

[JRKH]

Tim,
Thank you for that wonderful exposition, but you may be harboring some wrong impressions about me and my views…
You say above, “Don’t be fooled by thinking that because she has no spoken lines that she has no role”
I am not fooled about Mary’s role. I do not deny my Holy Mother, I love her. I do not ignore My Holy Mother, I revere her. I accept all of the dogmatic and doctrinal teachings of the Church on Mary.

In my post, I was addressing a specific argument that is often used to illustrate the Power of Mary in her role as intercessor with Jesus. I was simply pointing out a logical flow from that Argument…That at Cana, Mary told the servants (us) to “do whatever he tells you”, and what Jesus tell us to do in prayer is to Pray, “Our Father…”

I’ve also seen the links to the Queen Mother, and to Revelation etc. I have no problem with that - but it does not change the fact that - - -
The one to whom Mary points, The one who is our Lord and King and Savior, the one that the Queen Mother herself told us - “Do whatever he tells you”, teaches us to take our prayers directly to Our Father in Heaven.

Does this mean that we cannot ask Mary to intercede for us?? Of course not
Does this mean that we have to ask Mary to intercede for us? Again - Of course not.

I simply feel that, when it comes to helping converts and potential converts who express discomfort with intercessory prayer, it is best to tell them that if they are uncomfortable praying to Mary then don’t do it…Mary, good mother that she is, will not be offended if they prefer to pray directly to the one to whom she points…

Peace
James

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Tim,
Thank you for that wonderful exposition, but you may be harboring some wrong impressions about me and my views…
You say above, “Don’t be fooled by thinking that because she has no spoken lines that she has no role”
I am not fooled about Mary’s role. I do not deny my Holy Mother, I love her. I do not ignore My Holy Mother, I revere her. I accept all of the dogmatic and doctrinal teachings of the Church on Mary.

In my post, I was addressing a specific argument that is often used to illustrate the Power of Mary in her role as intercessor with Jesus. I was simply pointing out a logical flow from that Argument…That at Cana, Mary told the servants (us) to “do whatever he tells you”, and what Jesus tell us to do in prayer is to Pray, “Our Father…”

I’ve also seen the links to the Queen Mother, and to Revelation etc. I have no problem with that - but it does not change the fact that - - -
The one to whom Mary points, The one who is our Lord and King and Savior, the one that the Queen Mother herself told us - “Do whatever he tells you”, teaches us to take our prayers directly to Our Father in Heaven.

Does this mean that we cannot ask Mary to intercede for us?? Of course not
Does this mean that we have to ask Mary to intercede for us? Again - Of course not.

I simply feel that, when it comes to helping converts and potential converts who express discomfort with intercessory prayer, it is best to tell them that if they are uncomfortable praying to Mary then don’t do it…Mary, good mother that she is, will not be offended if they prefer to pray directly to the one to whom she points…

Peace
James

Well said, Forum Master!

That’s pretty much my position except more intelligible, more intelligent, more to the point, less words and way better.

 

[Miriam1947]

Tim,
Thank you for that wonderful exposition, but you may be harboring some wrong impressions about me and my views…
You say above, “Don’t be fooled by thinking that because she has no spoken lines that she has no role”
I am not fooled about Mary’s role. I do not deny my Holy Mother, I love her. I do not ignore My Holy Mother, I revere her. I accept all of the dogmatic and doctrinal teachings of the Church on Mary.

In my post, I was addressing a specific argument that is often used to illustrate the Power of Mary in her role as intercessor with Jesus. I was simply pointing out a logical flow from that Argument…That at Cana, Mary told the servants (us) to “do whatever he tells you”, and what Jesus tell us to do in prayer is to Pray, “Our Father…”

I’ve also seen the links to the Queen Mother, and to Revelation etc. I have no problem with that - but it does not change the fact that - - -
The one to whom Mary points, The one who is our Lord and King and Savior, the one that the Queen Mother herself told us - “Do whatever he tells you”, teaches us to take our prayers directly to Our Father in Heaven.

Does this mean that we cannot ask Mary to intercede for us?? Of course not
Does this mean that we have to ask Mary to intercede for us? Again - Of course not.

I simply feel that, when it comes to helping converts and potential converts who express discomfort with intercessory prayer, it is best to tell them that if they are uncomfortable praying to Mary then don’t do it…Mary, good mother that she is, will not be offended if they prefer to pray directly to the one to whom she points…

Peace
James

Thank you so much for this.

 

[JRKH]

Gregg and Miriam,
You are both very welcome. I’m glad that what I wrote is of help to you.

Peace
James

 

[freerf]

Does that mean that Jesus sinned? Of course not. It means that you are misinterpreting the necessity of Jesus’ blind obedience in the commandment.

I still don’t see where you think there is sin in any of that exchange. There is no evidence that Jesus’s remaining at the Temple was anything other than an oversight. Oversights and accidents are not sins. Sin requires a complete consent of the will (see Heb. 10:26-29).

Oversight? How can God make an oversight?

Regarding the Wedding, this is the only example people seem to relate to. Sorry but with only one example to pull from, such a strong statement (that Jesus must do as Mary wishes) seems unsupportable.

I’ve read the book of Revelation. It’s quite complicated and mysterious.

I disagree with the disobedience part. If Jesus knew His mother’s will (as he surly did) and that will was for Jesus to be with her and not at synagogue, how is this not disobedience? Why is a direct command required? Have you no children? If your child chose to stay somewhere for 3 days and not tell you, would you not consider that disobedient?

Still not sure if Catholics believe Mary to be omniscient. Can anyone answer this?

Regarding “harsh things.” Perhaps we’ve both been harsh? I stand by my comment however. It seems some of your “defense” of the Catholic Church is counter-productive, like Peter striking the ear from the high priest. enthusiastic? certainly. Appropriate? I suppose if the goal is squashing dissent.

 

[freerf]

Tim,
Thank you for that wonderful exposition, but you may be harboring some wrong impressions about me and my views…
You say above, “Don’t be fooled by thinking that because she has no spoken lines that she has no role”
I am not fooled about Mary’s role. I do not deny my Holy Mother, I love her. I do not ignore My Holy Mother, I revere her. I accept all of the dogmatic and doctrinal teachings of the Church on Mary.

In my post, I was addressing a specific argument that is often used to illustrate the Power of Mary in her role as intercessor with Jesus. I was simply pointing out a logical flow from that Argument…That at Cana, Mary told the servants (us) to “do whatever he tells you”, and what Jesus tell us to do in prayer is to Pray, “Our Father…”

I’ve also seen the links to the Queen Mother, and to Revelation etc. I have no problem with that - but it does not change the fact that - - -
The one to whom Mary points, The one who is our Lord and King and Savior, the one that the Queen Mother herself told us - “Do whatever he tells you”, teaches us to take our prayers directly to Our Father in Heaven.

Does this mean that we cannot ask Mary to intercede for us?? Of course not
Does this mean that we have to ask Mary to intercede for us? Again - Of course not.

I simply feel that, when it comes to helping converts and potential converts who express discomfort with intercessory prayer, it is best to tell them that if they are uncomfortable praying to Mary then don’t do it…Mary, good mother that she is, will not be offended if they prefer to pray directly to the one to whom she points…

Peace
James

Once again, well said and reasonably argued.

 

[JRKH]

As an analogy for why some might feel uncomfortable praying to Mary let’s use an analogy.

For the purpose of this analogy please disregard any actual adoption rules…

Suppose you are a child up for adoption. Everything goes through you are placed in a home…but for whatever reason, the mother is away. It is just the Father and a son (older than you. You joyfully come to the is family. The Father listens patiently, helps, and cares for you. He also disciplines you as needed. The older brother likewise is helpful and Loving and will do anything he can for you. You grow VERY close to both of them, can tell them anything and trust them with your very life.
Then, after some considerable time, the Mother comes home. She too is Lovely, lovable, patient kind, all the things that you hope for in a mother.
BUT -
Would you suddenly feel that it was necessary to change your whole dynamic and start asking mom to ask dad to do stuff for you??
Of course you would not.
Even if dad said you could, it’s is very likely that since you are use to talking directly to dad, that you will choose to do so.
Likewise, the mother, knowing that she is “new” to you and you don’t have the relationship with her that you have with the father and older brother, would be most patient and not be upset if you did not ask her to intervene with dad.

The same thing happens with protestants coming into the Church. They have already established a relationship with their Heavenly Father. They are comfortable with it and, at least in the beginning, don’t see any reason to change that dynamic.
Mary, their mother, is new to them. They don’t have the relationship with her that they have built up with The Father and with Jesus.
Mary, loving mother that she is, understands this and would be most patient and not be upset if you did not ask her to intercede.

Hope that little analogy is helpful

Peace
James

 

[freerf]

Still not sure if Catholics believe Mary to be omniscient. Can anyone answer this?

Answer is no. I’ve looked it up. Just seems she’d have to be to if Jesus must always obey her as some here have claimed. Otherwise she might easily ask him to do something outside of His will, like “don’t go to the synagogue for three days without telling me where you’re going.”

 

[LilyM]

Answer is no. I’ve looked it up. Just seems she’d have to be to if Jesus must always obey her as some here have claimed. Otherwise she might easily ask him to do something outside of His will, like “don’t go to the synagogue for three days without telling me where you’re going.”

But she never said anything like that, did she? Neither dd she later say ‘son, don’t take up that cross, don’t go to Calvary’. She could have easily - after all Peter expressed dismay when Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to die.

But she didn’t. Not even at that most awful time, a time when surely any mother would say ‘son, don’t do it’. And if she could accept God’s will even when it was hardest - during his passion - surely she could accept it when He was lost in the Temple. And so she does at all times.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Oversight? How can God make an oversight?

I didn’t say that God did. God permits oversights, for example, permitting Paul to forget who he baptized (1 Corinthians 1:17).

Regarding the Wedding, this is the only example people seem to relate to. Sorry but with only one example to pull from, such a strong statement (that Jesus must do as Mary wishes) seems unsupportable.

This belies a verse-flinging mindset that sees the Bible as a code to be cracked and not as a vehicle for divine instruction with one integral meaning. Speaking of which…

I’ve read the book of Revelation. It’s quite complicated and mysterious.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]

He didn’t make an exception for Revelation because it was too “mysterious” or “complicated.” Scripture is meant to instruct, period. It’s so ironic that Protestants get on CAF and tell the Catholics what to believe when they don’t even know how to interpret one whole book of the Bible.

I disagree with the disobedience part. If Jesus knew His mother’s will (as he surly did)

In His humanity or His divinity? Obviously in the latter, but He made himself subject to a human nature with all of the limitations that go along with it. He hungered, thirsted and wept.

Regarding “harsh things.” Perhaps we’ve both been harsh? I stand by my comment however. It seems some of your “defense” of the Catholic Church is counter-productive, like Peter striking the ear from the high priest. enthusiastic? certainly. Appropriate? I suppose if the goal is squashing dissent.

Actually squashing dissent is something that Protestants do. Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, and for something more recent, don’t forget Exhibit D (ugh…)