Praying to Mary doesn't feel right

[JRKH]

I grew up in a home where my mother I think crossed the line into mariolatry. Always praying to Mary but never to God. The secrets of Fatima were more important then the Gospels. We also had priest that only gave homilies on Mary. It was very strange.

This is a wonderful example of what can happen if we are not careful…
I started a thread the other day that asked…Can we worship something (or someone) without knowing it. I based it on the Gospel passage where Jesus spoke of not being able to serve two masters. "…he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."(Mt 6:24)
Certainly the Jews he was speaking of would not have thought that they “despised God”, or ignored God, in favor of something that was not God. but still…The responses I received on that thread agreed that we COULD slip unknowingly into a false worship…
And what you write above strikes me as being very near or over the line.

This is NOT in any way an indictment of Church teaching…Rather it is a comment on how some individuals can go overboard in Marion devotion.
Church teaching actually warns against teh possibility of excessive Marion devotion.

So in my adulthood, I made a conscious decision to concentrate on God, to never really practice Marion devotion and to look askance at the Marion apparations. As I grew older, I find myself praying spontaneously to Mary in a more personal way. I even have a picture of Our Lady in my office. I feel comfortable in this. However, I still have difficulties believing in Marion apparations other then Fatima, Lourdes and Guadalope.

This has been my journey as well.
During the time that I was away from the Church I concentrated on God and the Jesus and the faith of the Gospels. Now that I am back in the Church, I don’t really feel the need to particularly modify that prayer life…But when I DO pray to our Lady I am sure that I have a right outlook on the matter.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I don’t think any saint in heaven would accept people erroneously worshipping them. The saint would make sure that your prayers and petitions are aligned towards God, even if channelled through him/her.

The potential problem here is not what the saints will “accept” but rather what we will do - possibly inadvertently. Remember that the evil one is a subtle trickster. He even tried to use Scripture to Trick Jesus in the Desert. Ole satan can and will try to implant little things that, if accepted, can gradually draw one into false worship.

And what would make God more happier than all His children praying in communion with each other for the glory of Him and all his creation? He may even shed a tear

Agree with this completely.

Peace
James

 

[Cat_Herder]

Why [do you think the Memorare is idolatry]?

Because the Catholic is asking Mary for something? So when you ask your mother to bring you something, you’re worshiping your mother? Come on.

If you were about to say, “Well, Mary isn’t my mother!,” then you need to read your Bible. [copious Scripture]

Sigh. Here it comes. The swords are out.

So it is vital that we do not minimize Our Lady for the sake of ecumenical dialogue, lest people draw bad conclusions [about Church teaching.]

This is simply terrible logic. Empathy and honesty sholdn’t be steamrolled for fear of “minimizing our lady”.

Compare with:

This Prayer [the Memorare] has no inkling of prayer to God through or with Mary. It is purely Marion and is prayer TO Mary.
… this is indeed something that is troubling to protestants (and I admit it is uncomfortable to me as well).

You’re my new hero. Your clarity and honesty is sooo refreshing!

So let me get this straight. If you pray the Memorare, that means you have no “empathy” or “honesty,” and the moment you try to explain devotion to Mary and ask honest questions, you’re bringing out the swords like a very tardy Crusader. But if you refuse to pray the Memorare because it looks like impermissible “prayer TO Mary” (instead of God) even though the Catholic Church has already declared it to be in conformity with the Faith, then you have “clarity and honesty.”

I really hope that is not what you mean, and I invite you to clarify what you mean by “honesty.”

 

[Cat_Herder]

Why [do you think the Memorare is idolatry]?

Because the Catholic is asking Mary for something? So when you ask your mother to bring you something, you’re worshiping your mother? Come on.

If you were about to say, “Well, Mary isn’t my mother!,” then you need to read your Bible. [copious Scripture]

Sigh. Here it comes. The swords are out.

So it is vital that we do not minimize Our Lady for the sake of ecumenical dialogue, lest people draw bad conclusions [about Church teaching.]

This is simply terrible logic. Empathy and honesty sholdn’t be steamrolled for fear of “minimizing our lady”.

Compare with:

This Prayer [the Memorare] has no inkling of prayer to God through or with Mary. It is purely Marion and is prayer TO Mary.
… this is indeed something that is troubling to protestants (and I admit it is uncomfortable to me as well).

You’re my new hero. Your clarity and honesty is sooo refreshing!

I am confused by these exchanges, and I invite you to clarify what you mean by “honesty.”

Also, please respect the Blessed Mother’s title (“Our Lady”) by capitalizing same, or else you may simply use Her name (“Mary”).

 

[JRKH]

Compare with:

I am confused by these exchanges, and I invite you to clarify what you mean by “honesty.”

Also, please respect the Blessed Mother’s title (“Our Lady”) by capitalizing same, or else you may simply use Her name (“Mary”).

I’m confused too…Who are you referring to and if, as I am assuming, it is freef, what connection does my comment have with your question???

Peace
James

 

[Cat_Herder]

I’m confused too…Who are you referring to and if, as I am assuming, it is freef, what connection does my comment have with your question???

I’m referring to freerf and I want to know what he/she means by “honesty.”

 

[freerf]

Compare with:

I am confused by these exchanges, and I invite you to clarify what you mean by “honesty.”

Also, please respect the Blessed Mother’s title (“Our Lady”) by capitalizing same, or else you may simply use Her name (“Mary”).

I’ll not respond for fear of derailing a perfectly wonderful thread, which by some small miracle lacks much of the usual hostility and defensiveness this topic usually attracts. If you’d like you may PM me and I’ll privately elaborate.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I’ll not respond for fear of derailing a perfectly wonderful thread

If your definition of “honesty” would be something that would derail the thread, I think that tells us all we need to know. Thanks.

 

[freerf]

If your definition of “honesty” would be something that would derail the thread, I think that tells us all we need to know. Thanks.

lol

 

[petitfleur]

WOW!!! In all my years on this forum, this is the longest thread I ever started! I thought this would be a black and white here is your answer thread. I am glad to see the thoughtfulness and discussions.

 

[remjsmom76]

Our priest put it simple for all of us to understand. We have to unwrap our brain with the idea that praying=worshiping. Praying is a different thing and worship is another. Praying to a saint is asking them to pray WITH YOU AND FOR YOU. Remember “Where 2 or more are gathered in my name there am I in your midst” that includes people in spirit.

As others said, if you don’t feel comfortable praying to Mary…then don’t. But with my explanation, I don’t see why anyone wouldn’t ask Mary to pray for them. Mary is the mother of Jesus and she has his ear in all things. That does not mean your request will be granted, but I believe that it will be given certain consideration. She is our mother too. No mother wants to see her children suffer.

 

[MS_SURVEYOR]

This kind of blew me away,

Protestant views on Mary

Some early Protestants venerated and honored Mary. Martin Luther said Mary is “the highest woman”, that “we can never honour her enough”, that “the veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart” and that Christians should “wish that everyone know and respect her”. John Calvin said, “It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor.” Zwingli said, “I esteem immensely the Mother of God” and “The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow”. Thus the idea of respect and high honour was not rejected by the first Protestants; the practical implications for Mariology are still a matter of debate.

 

[Waiting]

Amongst all the “confusion” expressed on this thread, stands Jesus, with His arm around His mother. Picture the look on His face. Pained, I believe. Mary asks for nothing, certainly not worship. I’ve heard that Protestants consider prayer worship. Catholics do not. Prayer is talking to someone. I pray to saints, and most certainly to Mary, all the time. In the time of Jesus, the queen mother sat at the right side of the king. It was to her that people entrusted their needs. She influenced the king as no other could do. When Mary was assumed into heaven, Jesus crowned her His queen. Who do you think has the most influence with Jesus? You can ignore Mary all you choose, but you are hurting no one but yourself. Jesus loves His mother with a love that surpasses your love for your mother. As your mother wants your happiness above all things, the mother of Jesus desires that you give all of your worship to her Son. When on earth, Jesus could not say ‘no’ to His mother. Do you think the situation has changed since she is with Him in heaven? It’s your choice to ignore Mary, but you will one day be face to face with Her Son? What will be His reaction to this snubbing?

 

[runwaymodel]

I have gained a lot of knowledge from this post and better understanding of Mary.
I am somewhat ashamed to admit, that I too have had some difficulties about praying to/with Mary. I hope that one day I do get to a point where I can embrace it completely. Maybe I should ask the Lord for a little help, I really want to want to get to know her.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you “Waiting” for this beautiful post. I appreciate the way it is well thought out and charitably expressed. I do have a couple of comments to make.

Amongst all the “confusion” expressed on this thread, stands Jesus, with His arm around His mother. Picture the look on His face. Pained, I believe.

I wonder why you believe that Jesus has a Pained" look in the image you paint?

Mary asks for nothing, certainly not worship.

If Mary asks for nothing - except that we go to her son, then why would Mary or Jesus be pained if a person does so without going through her?

I’ve heard that Protestants consider prayer worship. Catholics do not. Prayer is talking to someone. I pray to saints, and most certainly to Mary, all the time.

Agreed. And yet. Church teaching does not require prayers to saints or to the BVM so if someone (say a convert) is uncomfortable with this, we should respect that discomfort. To assume that this some how “insults” either Mary or the Trinity seems very odd to me indeed.

In the time of Jesus, the queen mother sat at the right side of the king. It was to her that people entrusted their needs. She influenced the king as no other could do. When Mary was assumed into heaven, Jesus crowned her His queen. Who do you think has the most influence with Jesus?

I have no doubt but that Mary has great influence with Jesus - assuming that there is any sort of “hierarchy” of this sort in a place where everyone’s will is perfectly in accord with the Father’s Will.

You can ignore Mary all you choose, but you are hurting no one but yourself. Jesus loves His mother with a love that surpasses your love for your mother. As your mother wants your happiness above all things, the mother of Jesus desires that you give all of your worship to her Son.

I disagree here. Forgive me for being blunt. You say that Mary, “desires that you give all of your worship to her Son”, but if I do this you say that I hurt no one but myself. To me, this crosses the line between proper veneration and quasi worship. I’m sure that is not what you intend to convey and yet to me - even having been raised in a devout Catholic family and Loving my Heavenly Mother as I do - I find such statements highly uncomfortable.
There have been a couple of recent threads asking the question of whether one can cross “worship” something (or someone) without knowing it…Let everyone be careful to keep veneration in it’s proper proportion.

When on earth, Jesus could not say ‘no’ to His mother. Do you think the situation has changed since she is with Him in heaven? It’s your choice to ignore Mary, but you will one day be face to face with Her Son? What will be His reaction to this snubbing?

Scripture gives us a single instance of “Intercession” with Mary. It takes place at Cana, and her advice to those asking was to “Do whatever He tells you to do”. Later in Matthew we have the disciples ask Jesus to teach them How to pray and He gives us the “Our Father”. So - If I obey Mary to, “Do what He tells you”, and I pray directly to the Father as taught by the Son, how can I be doing myself harm???

I agree that there is much good advice given in this thread and I am glad that so many have written that it has been of help to them. I must say though that Posts like the one above, as nicely written as it is, does not help me to be any more comfortable with intercessory prayer of any type including to the Blessed Virgin - except for the “Hail Mary” which I think is about as perfect a Marion Prayer as you can get.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no objection to anyone offering intercessory prayer - none what-so-ever.

Peace
James

 

[Waiting]

Thank you “Waiting” for this beautiful post. I appreciate the way it is well thought out and charitably expressed. I do have a couple of comments to make.

I wonder why you believe that Jesus has a Pained" look in the image you paint?

If Mary asks for nothing - except that we go to her son, then why would Mary or Jesus be pained if a person does so without going through her?

Agreed. And yet. Church teaching does not require prayers to saints or to the BVM so if someone (say a convert) is uncomfortable with this, we should respect that discomfort. To assume that this some how “insults” either Mary or the Trinity seems very odd to me indeed.
I have no doubt but that Mary has great influence with Jesus - assuming that there is any sort of “hierarchy” of this sort in a place where everyone’s will is perfectly in accord with the Father’s Will.

I disagree here. Forgive me for being blunt. You say that Mary, “desires that you give all of your worship to her Son”, but if I do this you say that I hurt no one but myself. To me, this crosses the line between proper veneration and quasi worship. I’m sure that is not what you intend to convey and yet to me - even having been raised in a devout Catholic family and Loving my Heavenly Mother as I do - I find such statements highly uncomfortable.
There have been a couple of recent threads asking the question of whether one can cross “worship” something (or someone) without knowing it…Let everyone be careful to keep veneration in it’s proper proportion.

Scripture gives us a single instance of “Intercession” with Mary. It takes place at Cana, and her advice to those asking was to “Do whatever He tells you to do”. Later in Matthew we have the disciples ask Jesus to teach them How to pray and He gives us the “Our Father”. So - If I obey Mary to, “Do what He tells you”, and I pray directly to the Father as taught by the Son, how can I be doing myself harm???

I agree that there is much good advice given in this thread and I am glad that so many have written that it has been of help to them. I must say though that Posts like the one above, as nicely written as it is, does not help me to be any more comfortable with intercessory prayer of any type including to the Blessed Virgin - except for the “Hail Mary” which I think is about as perfect a Marion Prayer as you can get.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no objection to anyone offering intercessory prayer - none what-so-ever.

Peace
James

Thank you for the compliment. By the pained expression on Jesus’ face, I’m referring to the fact that you and some others are not comfortable praying to Mary. If someone felt uncomfortable speaking to my mother, I would wonder why, and I’m sure there would be a pained look on my face. Mary doesn’t take offense by not being approached to intercede for you, but do you think her Son is pleased that you deliberately bypass her?

When I say that you hurt only yourself if you ignore Mary, I mean that she can help you in so many ways through her powerful intercessory power with her Son, that you are the loser by not asking for her help. It’s as simple as that. Jesus found it impossible to say ‘no’ to His mother here on earth, so it’s a certainty that He won’t refuse her petitions in heaven. I don’t mean to change your method of praying. Just maybe get a little better acquainted with His mother.

 

[bakaten]

Memorare

…sought Thine intercession…
…O Mother of the Word Incarnate…

Now tell me which part of the prayer doesn’t have Jesus written all over the place

Peace be with you.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Right now my earthly mother cannot express herself to me, but she has formed me with her love so that I can make decisions on her behalf. So I act according to her will, that she expresses not now in clear words, but in how she has taught and instructed me to act in various situations.

I don’t know about Jesus and His mother, but in my own mother’s case she basically was unconditional love. I always felt wanted, and she made it clear I could come to her for help and never have to fear being punished for approaching her.

and my father? well if I can make these words come true I feel like I’ll have accomplished something with the life he consented for me to have:

Sirach 30
3 Whoever educates a son will make his enemy jealous, and rejoice in him among his friends.
4 At the father’s death, he will seem not dead, for he leaves after him one like himself,
5 Whom he looked upon through life with joy, and in death, without regret.
6 Against his enemies he has left an avenger, and one to repay his friends with kindness.

So how can I compare this to my heavenly Father, Brother, and Mother – into whose family I have been a adopted? Wouldn’t they be even better?

Alan

 

[JRKH]

Thank you for the compliment. By the pained expression on Jesus’ face, I’m referring to the fact that you and some others are not comfortable praying to Mary. If someone felt uncomfortable speaking to my mother, I would wonder why, and I’m sure there would be a pained look on my face. Mary doesn’t take offense by not being approached to intercede for you, but do you think her Son is pleased that you deliberately bypass her?

(Bolding Mine)
Since, as you say here, Mary takes no offense - then where is there harm??
Likewise, I don’t see Jesus as being either pleased or displeased in the matter.

You ask if I think that Jesus is “pleased” that I “bypass” his mother - I ask, since Mary points to her son AND is not offended by being “bypassed” the why should Jesus be displeased by our coming directly to Him or directly to Our Father???

See this is the thing that bothers me in much of these kinds of discussions.
On the one hand you want to claim that Mary is not offended, but on the other hand you want to claim that Jesus IS offended…Thus placing an unnecessary barrier between me and God.
On the one hand you agree that praying to or through Mary is not necessary, but then on the other hand you hold up the specter of Jesus being offended, or angry or otherwise “out of sorts” because we what(?) - because we dare to pray to Him or to Our Father directly in the manner that Jesus Himself taught us??.. …It makes no sense.

I have to say that - from my viewpoint and my understanding of these things - God would have more reason to feel offended if we felt we couldn’t approach Him, Our Father, directly - if we felt that we had to go through Mary.

You make the point of Jesus love for His mother and how it makes Him happy if we love her too and pray to her…Fair enough…But is it not even MORE true that Jesus and Mary both Love His Father and our Father, the Living God, and what makes them BOTH the happiest is when we pray to Him?..

You say that if someone were uncomfortable talking to your mother you would wonder why…
But would not the same thing be true for your father? If someone felt uncomfortable talking to your Father would you also wonder why??

When I say that you hurt only yourself if you ignore Mary, I mean that she can help you in so many ways through her powerful intercessory power with her Son, that you are the loser by not asking for her help. It’s as simple as that. Jesus found it impossible to say ‘no’ to His mother here on earth, so it’s a certainty that He won’t refuse her petitions in heaven. I don’t mean to change your method of praying. Just maybe get a little better acquainted with His mother.

Forgive me for saying so but this whole concept strikes me as rather selfish.
What you are saying in effect is that if you pray to “Dad” and are told “No”, then Go to “Mom” and she’ll get a “Yes” for you. Or, if you are worried that Dad will say no - Go to Mom first…She’ll get a yes for you…
This strikes me as too much desiring of ones own will over the Will of the Father. Yet we know that the will of the saints in Heaven is perfectly aligned, in Love, with the Father’s Will. The Father knows what is best for us. Thus, Mary, aligned in Love with the Father on these matters also knows that the Father’s Will is what is best for us. So what advantage is there in trying to get God to say “Yes” through Mary when we figure He might say “No” to us.

Having said this I will and do concede that Mary (as well as other saints) can and do bring to us much comfort by their prayers on our behalf and the graces we may receive by such intercession. Not that they “change God’s Mind” or that “God cannot say no to them”, but rather that through their particular charism, each saint can help us to understand and to accept the Father’s Will in our Lives. The Father’s Will - which is, necessarily, the same as the Saint’s, and the BVM’s will for us.

I hope that I am not coming across as too harsh in these posts. It is not my intention. I do have some experience in prayers of petition and of being told “no” by God the Father Himself. I can see no advantage - indeed I see it as being disingenuous and selfishly manipulative - to then seek the aid of “Mom” to try to get Him to change His mind.

My heavenly Mother can and does comfort me in trying to understand the Father’s reasons for saying “no” and in accepting His Will for me and that is sufficient and is a role proper to a Loving Mother who Loves the Father and wants only the best for her children.

And maybe too, part of this is because I know from growing up that, if one of my parents said no to a request we children had, there was no use (in fact if was counterproductive) to try to do an “end run” through the other parent…

With deep respect to others opinions on these matters I remain at peace with my current spirituality on the matter.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Memorare

…sought Thine intercession…
…O Mother of the Word Incarnate…

Now tell me which part of the prayer doesn’t have Jesus written all over the place

Peace be with you.

In referencing the Memorare, it is not a matter of saying that Jesus is not present in the prayer but rather a matter of pointing out that this is a prayer addressed wholly TO Mary.

Let us examine it a bit…
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.

Amen.

The first section is reminding Mary (as if she needs reminding) that she is known as a great help to her children.
In the second section, NO mention is made of her praying to God on our behalf The petitioner is coming completely to Mary - bringing the petitions to her and imploring an answer from her.

Now - to be clear. If the specific intentions are properly ordered to God and God’s Will, and if the one petitioning has a proper understanding of how Mary “hear and answers” then there is no problem…

BUT -

To a person who is NOT well versed in these matters, does not have a good understanding of Mary’s relationship and role, and brings their petitions NOT properly ordered to God and God’s Will there is danger of slipping into improper veneration of Mary.

Likewise, if a person is a new convert or someone considering conversion, the wording of this prayer can be troubling. It could even serve as a “stumbling block” to conversion because it can quite easily be misunderstood as inappropriate veneration/worship.

We often defend the practice of praying to saints as “asking them to pray with us”. That it is no different than asking others in your church to pray for and with you for some intention. Yet - could you imagine ever speaking to a fellow parishioner in such terms as are expressed in the Memorare? Would you ever ask another parishioner to “hear your intentions” and to “answer your intentions”?

In short, this prayer is not one to be recited lightly and without a good understanding of Mary’s role in the economy of salvation.
For most normal circumstances and for the “average” faithful, it’s probably best to stick with the old, reliable, “Hail Mary”…

Peace
James