Praying to Saints and their Intercession

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi Reformed Rob!

Your pastor’s entire argument seems to be based upon personal assumptions and misconceptions about Catholic teaching…

Many of his arguments stem from one big assumption:

Assumption: There is only one kind of prayer and that’s the prayer that’s directed at God. Therefore prayer directed at someone alive with Christ in heaven is exactly the same as prayer to God.

The word “pray” can mean a couple of different things:

Main Entry: pray
**Pronunciation: **'prA
**Function: **verb
**Etymology: **Middle English, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
**Date: **13th century
transitive senses
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE — often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Your pastor seems to be going by the assmption that all prayer is the red type of prayer. It isn’t. There is also the blue type of prayer, which is entirely different. It’s this blue type of prayer that is directed at those alive with Christ in heaven (Saints).
Reformed Rob:

1. Answering prayer requires searching of the heart, and only God can search our hearts.
   I Kings 8:39,40 Also consider Proverbs 28:9

Misconception: Those who are praying to Saints are seeking answers from them.

God answers prayer, no one else. When someone “prays to” a Saint he is asking that person to pray for him, not to answer his prayer. That takes us back to the different meanings of the word “pray”.

1. We are told in Scripture “O thou Who dost hear prayer, to Thee all men come.”
   Psalm 65:2

I’m not sure how this supports your pastor’s point against the Church.

1. God is to be believed in for salvation, and we are to call in prayer to the One Whom we believe in for salvation.
   Romans 10:14 - We are not to “believe in a departed saint” for salvation, so we are not to call upon them in prayer either.

Misconception: Catholics believe that salvation is through someone other than God.

Actual Catholic teaching: Salvation is through Christ alone.

Assumption: There is only one kind of prayer that that’s the kind that directed at God so prayer directed at anyone else is wrong.

See above the red and blue kinds of prayer.

CONTINUED…

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Salmon:

Saints and Intercessory Prayer

Question: Do you think that Solomon outperforms Jesus Christ in this regard? Or, is it possible that Jesus bestows honor upon His mother to an even greater degree?

Peace in Christ…Salmon

Yeah, Ok, that’s a good point.

I’d say that Christ honored her just as much if not more in His station of life while on earth. In Heaven, though, it’s just interpreting The Apocalypse a certain way to get the conclusion you’re after.

By “station of life” I mean that He came on earth as a man of lowly birth, humbling Himself to the birth and family he was with. He was indeed Prince of Peace, King of Kings, but during His earthly ministry I have no reason to believe that the house of Mary and Joseph had a secret room where Mary would come in and Jesus would bow to her and they’d carry on like He was King of the Jews and she was His “Queen Mother”. Yet, as much as He could, without the accompanying outward show, He honored her perfectly as He should have.

And now they’re both in heaven, and she is worshipping Him as the spotless Lamb just as all the other saints are/will be doing.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

1. We understand prayer to be a special part of religious worship, and the Trinity alone is to be worshipped.
   Matthew 4:10, I Corinthinans 1:2

Assumption: There is only one kind of prayer and all prayer is worship.

Already covered.

1. We are specifically instructed to call upon God, not to call upon others in heaven to call upon God.
   Psalm 50:15, Philippians 4:6

Assumption: All prayer is the “calling on God” kind.

Your pastor’s verses deal only with calling on God, not at all with not calling upon others in heaven to call upon God.

In Scripture Paul calls upon others to call upon God regularly (Eph 6:19 , Eph 6:20 , Col 4:3, 1Th 5:25). It is in precisely this way that some choose to call upon those in heaven.

I should add also, with fear of bringing up too many objections, that it would be impossible for a created being (ie. Mary) to hear such a number of prayers at once. That’s something only God can do.

Misconception: Mary can hear a great number of prayer at once by her own power.

The church doesn’t teach how those in heaven can hear prayers. Except for Mary they don’t have ears, so in any event they aren’t “hearing” as we experience hearing here on earth.

With God all things are possible. It’s even possible for God to allow those in heaven to be made aware of prayer requests addressed to them. We can see in Rev 5:8 that there are those in heaven who take the prayers of those on earth before God. In order to be in possession of those prayers they must be aware of them. The Church doesn’t teach how that occurs, just that it occurs.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[mtr01]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi Reformed Rob!

Your pastor’s entire argument seems to be based upon personal assumptions and misconceptions about Catholic teaching…

Many of his arguments stem from one big assumption:

Assumption: There is only one kind of prayer and that’s the prayer that’s directed at God. Therefore prayer directed at someone alive with Christ in heaven is exactly the same as prayer to God.

The word “pray” can mean a couple of different things:

Main Entry: pray
**Pronunciation: **'prA
**Function: **verb
**Etymology: **Middle English, from Old French preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
**Date: **13th century
transitive senses
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE — often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Your pastor seems to be going by the assmption that all prayer is the red type of prayer. It isn’t. There is also the blue type of prayer, which is entirely different. It’s this blue type of prayer that is directed at those alive with Christ in heaven (Saints).

Hi Nancy,

This is a valid point, however I’m not really fond of it, as it many times doesn’t seem to hold any sway with people who object to prayer to Saints. I also admit that some of my prayers to Mary (for example) aren’t necessarily intercessory, but of thanks for her intercession. The distinction I like to make is concerning the definition of “worship”:

worship

\Wor"ship, n. [OE. worshipe, wur[eth]scipe, AS. weor[eth]scipe; weor[eth] worth + -scipe -ship. See Worth, a., and -ship.]

1. Excellence of character; dignity; worth; worthiness. [Obs.] --Shak.
2. Honor; respect; civil deference. [Obs.]
3. Hence, a title of honor, used in addresses to certain magistrates and others of rank or station.
4. The act of paying divine honors to the Supreme Being; religious reverence and homage; adoration, or acts of reverence, paid to God, or a being viewed as God.
   If any prayer is a form of worship, so be it. However, it is important to recognize the difference between definition 2 (which characterizes Catholic prayer to saints) and definition 4 (prayer to God). These are expressed formally in the concepts of dulia, hyperdulia, and latria.

Reformed Rob, if you are not versed in this terminology, I would suggest you acquaint yourself here. I think it will greatly benefit your understanding of these issues.

I hope this helps!

 

[jimmy]

1. Answering prayer requires searching of the heart, and only God can search our hearts.
I Kings 8:39,40 Also consider Proverbs 28:9

1. We are told in Scripture “O thou Who dost hear prayer, to Thee all men come.”
   Psalm 65:2

Hello Rob,

Just because we pray to Mary and the saints does not mean that we are forgetting about God and that he is not involved. On the contrary, it is through the power of God and with his permission that the saints answer our prayers. When we reach Heaven we will desire to please God in every way we can because we will be freed from all evilness and we will love him with all our heart, and mind, and soul, and strength. Consequently we will want to help all of Gods people to come closer to him and to have what we have gained. God will not deny us this desire because he loves us and nothing in this request would be contrary to God.

1. God is to be believed in for salvation, and we are to call in prayer to the One Whom we believe in for salvation.
   Romans 10:14 - We are not to “believe in a departed saint” for salvation, so we are not to call upon them in prayer either.
2. We understand prayer to be a special part of religious worship, and the Trinity alone is to be worshipped.
   Matthew 4:10, I Corinthinans 1:2

Prayer is not necisarily meant to be worship. If you look in the dictionary you will see that the word pray means to ask. A prayer is a request. When I ask you to pray for me I am praying to you. So when I pray to Mary or to Michael the Archangel I am making a request. If you read the “Hail Mary” you will see exactly this, the last line is “pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”

If you read the Prayer to Michael the Archangel you will see that it says “by the power of God thrust into hell satan,”. This is admitting that it is through Gods power that Michael works.

Further, when we pray to a saint we are also honoring that saint. Honoring that saint is not evil and idolitrous because we are honoring something that is good. When we honor the saints, we are honoring God for his great creation. Its like saying, “what a beautiful house”. If the person who built it heard you say that he would probably be very honored.

But we are not serving the saints when we pray to them. We are serving God and we are honoring his creation.

1. We are specifically instructed to call upon God, not to call upon others in heaven to call upon God.
   Psalm 50:15, Philippians 4:6

Every prayer we say, is a prayer to God. Like I said before it is through his power and his permission that the saints answer our prayers. The above verses do not say that you should only pray directly to God and avoid the saints. They only say that you should ask God when in a time of need. In Rev.8;3 we see the angels that offered insense with the prayers of the saints. The angels and saints make our requests to God greater. They add what they have to what we ask .

I should add also, with fear of bringing up too many objections, that it would be impossible for a created being (ie. Mary) to hear such a number of prayers at once. That’s something only God can do.

This comes from a different understanding of the creation of God. Catholics understand that God lives outside of time. The prayers we offer are continually being offered to God. The prayers I said last night are still being offered, it is continuous. So even if a saint recieves millions of prayers they can still handle them because they are outside of time with God.

 

[Salmon]

Reformed Rob:

I’d say that Christ honored her just as much if not more in His station of life while on earth. In Heaven, though, it’s just interpreting The Apocalypse a certain way to get the conclusion you’re after.

By “station of life” I mean that He came on earth as a man of lowly birth, humbling Himself to the birth and family he was with. He was indeed Prince of Peace, King of Kings, but during His earthly ministry I have no reason to believe that the house of Mary and Joseph had a secret room where Mary would come in and Jesus would bow to her and they’d carry on like He was King of the Jews and she was His “Queen Mother”. Yet, as much as He could, without the accompanying outward show, He honored her perfectly as He should have.

So, the Word Made Flesh is bound by the Word of God (the command to honor our mother and father) only on earth, but all bets are off in another location (heaven)?

So, if Solomon and his mom relocated to, say, Pittsburgh, then she wouldn’t be treated as well?

Mary was the mother of Jesus. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Mary will always be the mother of Jesus.

And now they’re both in heaven, and she is worshipping Him as the spotless Lamb just as all the other saints are/will be doing.

Absolutely. Any special privelege she may enjoy is strictly dependent upon the will of her Son.

If Jesus chooses to honor His mother, then it will be done. If He chooses to honor her not at all, it will be done.

What would Jesus do? (sorry. couldn’t resist)

Read again that passage in 1 Kings 2 and ask yourself if the honor that Solomon held for his mother meant that Solomon’s honor was diminished in any way. Or, conversely, did his actions increase his own honor?

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[quintessential5]

Reformed Rob:

But if I wouldn’t have said that, how would you respond to what I said about Bathsheba? Like, if I were talking to somebody about this topic, I probably wouldn’t use it as a “proof text.”

Wow…so many more posts since I last checked…I was just going to say that the typological relationship is merely that since Christ is a type of Davidic king, Mary is a type of Davidic queen mother and not necessarily a type of Bathsheba specifically. The whole idea is that she is the means by which people could often bring their petitions to the king. Therefore, regardless of whether or not this intercession is efficacious in the story about Bathsheba, the validity of the typological relationship would still stand.

You essentially caputured the essence of my response though when you said:
Reformed Rob:

So yeah, the typology of I Kings 2 would lend to at least the principle of “praying to Mary” to use the Catholic lingo. Even if the results were less than favorable to Adonijah.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi mtr01!

This is a valid point, however I’m not really fond of it, as it many times doesn’t seem to hold any sway with people who object to prayer to Saints.

You’re right, it doesn’t, for no other reason than a stubborn adherence to a misconception that one prays to a Saint in exactly the same manner that one prays to God.

I also admit that some of my prayers to Mary (for example) aren’t necessarily intercessory, but of thanks for her intercession.

Right, which still isn’t asking her to actually answer the prayer. Non-Catholic Christians thank their friends and family on earth when they pray for them too. There’s really no difference.

It’s the word “pray” that throws people. They equate it with the wrong thing. They equate it to prayer to God rather than with “prayer warriors”, which is what the Saints are.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Matt16_18]

ReformedBob

Ask your pastor to explain these scriptures: Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
James 5:16

 

[RNRobert]

I have a coworker who is Catholic, but is married to a non-Catholic. He told me one of her objections to the Catholic faith is praying to the saints, and that she says we should just pray to God. I said to tell her,“In that case, she shouldn’t ask anyone at church to pray for her, or pray for anyone herself, as they should just pray directly to God.” I pointed out that we do not cease being members of the body of Christ when we die, on the contrary we are more radically joined to him and our prayers would be even more effective.

Yesterday my friend told me she had another objection: That we should only ask people to pray for us who are physically present on earth. I told him to ask his wife the following two questions:

1. 
   *]If she were to die today and go to Heaven, does she think she would still pray for her children, husband, etc.?
   *]If the answer is yes, than ask her, “Then why can’t those who have gone before us continue to pray for us?”
   
   When I return to work tomorrow, I’ll ask him what her answer was.

 

[mtr01]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi mtr01!

Hi Nancy! (I love the wave smiley, it just makes me want to right back!)

Catholic4aReasn:

You’re right, it doesn’t, for no other reason than a stubborn adherence to a misconception that one prays to a Saint in exactly the same manner that one prays to God.

I know. It’s frustrating, isn’t it?

Catholic4aReasn:

Right, which still isn’t asking her to actually answer the prayer. Non-Catholic Christians thank their friends and family on earth when they pray for them too. There’s really no difference.

It’s the word “pray” that throws people. They equate it with the wrong thing. They equate it to prayer to God rather than with “prayer warriors”, which is what the Saints are.

In Christ,
Nancy

Absolutely correct! It’s for this reason that I’ve given up hope on making the distinction on prayer (for better or worse). I figure the worship distinction, however, might be something people haven’t heard before and might make a few people actually stop and think.

IMHO, it’s really the same argument, just from a little different angle. I figure if people understand the Catholic definition of worship as explained by dulia, hyperdulia, and latria, some of their objections might cease. Hey, at least it’s worth a shot

 

[Reformed_Rob]

ReformedBob

Ask your pastor to explain these scriptures:Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
James 5:16

Oh boy!!! I’m not going to go there again!!

About 3 or 4 years ago, the guy who was in my church but is Catholic now, asked my pastor about that verse, or somehow it came up in conversation at a sunday night meeting. Now, this is before he was interested in Catholicism, he was very Reformed, but somehow it came up.

My pastor said basically that we shouldn’t confess sins to one another.

I remember the context now. My friend was telling about how him and his roomates would talk about their sins for the purpose of accountability and pray for eachother before their group Bible study at night.
My pastor sought to put an end to all that, saying we had no business confessing sins to eachother. He said it reminded him too much of Evangelicals and their “accountability groups” which he disagrees with. My friend was like, “But what about what James says??” And my pastor said that the Westminster Confession of Faith references that verse in context of public confession of public sin. It’s Chapter 15:6. Like in Matthew 18, public sins require public confession. He said he believes otherwise, our sins are just between us and God.

As for the aspect of “the prayer of a righteous man” he’d just say that there is active righteousness, where we are obedient to God, and passive righteousness, which is not based on us, but is Christ’s imputed righteousness. That verse would apply to a man who has both, not just imputed righteousness. That’s my way of explaining what I’m sure he’d say. He wouldn’t infer that those in Heaven are righteous, so their prayers count a lot.

 

[Origen]

Revelation 8:3

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.
I don’t know how much more explicitly it could be said that intercessory prayer is to be found in the Kingdom of God.

Not much more to debate, I think.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Origen:

Revelation 8:3

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.
I don’t know how much more explicitly it could be said that intercessory prayer is to be found in the Kingdom of God.

Not much more to debate, I think.

Rev 5:8 too!!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Matt16_18]

Reformed Rob:

He wouldn’t infer that those in Heaven are righteous, so their prayers count a lot.

He wouldn’t infer that because he is a Calvinist. If he understood what the first Christians believed, he wouldn’t think that way.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Origen:

Revelation 8:3

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.

I don’t know how much more explicitly it could be said that intercessory prayer is to be found in the Kingdom of God.

Not much more to debate, I think.

Hello!! Symbolism!!
I take that to be symbolic, and it’s interesting that it’s so similar to what David prays in
Psalm 141:1,2
Lord, I cry out to You; make hast to me! Give ear to my voice when I cry out to you.
Let my prayer be set before You as incense, the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Like, when the the priests would burn incense to God
(Exodus 30:34-37)

Anyways, why not take this whole scene to be a picture of earthly worship? The book being unsealed symbolic of the worship service (Protestant) on earth. Anyways, it’s an elder (5:5) that is speaking and encouraging John.

But that’s just Matthew Henry’s take on it here
ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC66005.HTM

I’m not sure I could be convinced of that. Like, it seems so heavenly, and it would probably be easier to get Catholic Liturgy out of it than just earthly stuff, or whatever Henry’s Commentary would suggest. But I’m not sure.

Thanks for discussing this with me. I know I’m not the first to ask a similar question!

But, for conversation’s sake:

IV. To prepare for this, another angel must first offer incense, v. 3.** It is very probable that this other angel is the Lord Jesus**, the high priest of the church, who is here described in his sacerdotal office, having a golden censer and much incense, a fulness of merit in his own glorious person, and this incense he was to offer up, with the prayers of all the saints, upon the golden altar of his divine nature. Observe, 1. All the saints are a praying people; none of the children of God are born dumb, a Spirit of grace is always a Spirit of adoption and supplication, teaching us to cry, Abba, Father. Ps. xxxii. 6, For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee. 2. Times of danger should be praying times, and so should times of great expectation; both our fears and our hopes should put us upon prayer, and, where the interest of the church of God is deeply concerned, the hearts of the people of God in prayer should be greatly enlarged. 3. The prayers of the saints themselves stand in need of the incense and intercession of Christ to make them acceptable and effectual, and there is provision made by Christ for that purpose; he has his incense, his censer, and his altar; he is all himself to his people. 4. The prayers of the saints come up before God in a cloud of incense; no prayer, thus recommended, was ever denied audience or acceptance. 5.

Thats from Chapter 8
ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC66008.HTM

 

[thisismyusrname]

Most of what I’ll have to say has probably already been covered, but, here it goes…

1. Answering prayer requires searching of the heart, and only God can search our hearts.
   I Kings 8:39,40 Also consider Proverbs 28:9

When we pray to the Saints (is it just me, or is my text red now?), we ask them for intercession. Yes, only God (by His own power) can read our hearts. But if we are simply asking them to pray for us, shouldn’t they be able to hear us when we pray to them in that way? And, even if they do require the ability to “search hearts”, God could grant in to them. The Prophets and Apostles didn’t have the power to heal of themselves, only God does, but He granted that power to them.

1. We are told in Scripture “O thou Who dost hear prayer, to Thee all men come.”
   Psalm 65:2

How does this argue against prayer to the Saints?

1. God is to be believed in for salvation, and we are to call in prayer to the One Whom we believe in for salvation.
   Romans 10:14 - We are not to “believe in a departed saint” for salvation, so we are not to call upon them in prayer either.

We do not believe in Mary, the saints, or the angels for salvation - only in God. When we pray to the saints, we honor them and ask them for intercession.

1. We understand prayer to be a special part of religious worship, and the Trinity alone is to be worshipped.
   Matthew 4:10, I Corinthinans 1:2

Four purposes of prayer are, To praise and worship, to give thanks to, to show sorrow for our sins, and to make supplication. When we pray to the Saints, we ask them to pray for us. We can also thank them for praying for us, as well, just like you would thank a friend for doing so. We can also show them honor in prayer (you could honor someone on earth for something well down), though we can never worship them or give them the same praise as God. We can never adore them, for that is reserved for God. We do not worship the saints. Also, we pray first and foremost to God, and ultimately all prayers go to God.

1. We are specifically instructed to call upon God, not to call upon others in heaven to call upon God.
   Psalm 50:15, Philippians 4:6

We pray first and foremost to God. But we can also ask others, both those on earth AND in Heaven, to pray for us. Is there anythign wrong with asking a friend to pray for you? If not, then there isn’t anything wrong with asking someone in Heaven either.

I should add also, with fear of bringing up too many objections, that it would be impossible for a created being (ie. Mary) to hear such a number of prayers at once. That’s something only God can do.

Only God is omniscient, with total and unlimited knowledge. However, the saints in Heaven are no longer limited by space and time. They have entered eternity. Most people could probably barely understand three people on earth talking at the same time, because we’re limited by our bodies, and time and space and matter. However, in Heaven they do not communicate with bodies (though Mary and Jesus have bodies, but they are glorified), but by “intuition”. They are thus, and granted by God, able to hear our prayers.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

ReformedBob,

Why do you suppose that nobody questioned the orthodoxy of requesting the angels and saints in heaven for their prayers until after the Reformation? Doesn’t that give you some indication as to which interpretation of Scripture is novel and which is in accord with the ancient faith of our holy martyrs?

 

[Reformed_Rob]

itsjustdave1988:

ReformedBob,

Why do you suppose that nobody questioned the orthodoxy of requesting the angels and saints in heaven for their prayers until after the Reformation? Doesn’t that give you some indication as to which interpretation of Scripture is novel and which is in accord with the ancient faith of our holy martyrs?

I’m unaware of no-one questioning the orthodoxy of it. Can you prove that “no-one” questioned the orthodoxy of it?

I think that it was an aspect of the issues addressed at the 2nd Nicean Council.

Ok, here’s solid proof for you, from one of your own authors:

From “*The Catholic Controversy” *p. 78
by St. Francis de Sales
Vigilantius, as St. Jerome says (Against Vigilantius), denied that the relics of the Saints are to be honoured, that the prayers of the Saints are profitable, that priests should live in celibacy; he rejected voluntary poverty.

So there, it has been questioned, back in St. Jerome’s day, like the early 400’s.

 

[RNRobert]

Reformed Rob:

I’m not sure I could be convinced of that. Like, it seems so heavenly, and it would probably be easier to get Catholic Liturgy out of it than just earthly stuff, or whatever Henry’s Commentary would suggest. But I’m not sure.

You might want to read The Lamb’s Supper, by Scott Hahn. He does a marvelous job comparing the Mass to the events described in Revelation.