Praying to Saints and their Intercession

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ReformedBob,

I guess I should have been more specific. There were many more that denied the divinity of Christ and disputed the inspired texts of Scripture than denied the efficacy of intercessory prayers of the saints, correct? Anything and everything orthodox has been denied at some point, but by who? Did their opinion prevail? Does it even prevail in Christianity today? Catholics, Orthodox, and many Protestants reject Vigilantius’ views. It seem more like a protestant-versus-protestant dispute than any real dispute among Christians in general. Protestants cannot agree upon the divinity of Christ, so I don’t expect universal agreement on lesser matters.

Just because we can cite a heretic, such as Arius, as denying the Divinity of Christ, or Vigilantius denying that which the Church believed, doesn’t mean that his was an acceptable Christian teaching, does it?

Can you cite an orthodox father who denied the efficacy of intercessory prayers? Or is it just heretics in your defense? Have you read St. Jerome’s defense? If so, how is it that you can in any way believe Vigilantius was orthodox?

Didn’t the contents of the Bible have more general disagreement in the history of Christianity than the doctrine regarding the efficacy of intercessory prayers of the saints? If the contents of the Bible was in more dispute (as is evident in history), then on what basis do you say the contents of the Bible are certain yet the efficacy of saintly prayers doubtful? Or can one rightly choose to create their own personal Bible, call it the Word of God, and interpret for themselves apart from the Christian community that the Bible is something different and teaches something different than what has been handed on by the Church since the very beginning, adding the Gospel of Thomas or the Book of Mormon if one so chooses, or subtracting the Book of Revelation?

Ya see, if you are orthodox in your Christianity, like St. Athanasius, you wouldn’t accept any plausible interpretation of Scripture, or any man’s ravings as to what is orthodox Christianity. Neither did St. Jerome regarding Vigilantius’ opinions. Only that interpretation of Scripture that was not contrary to that which apostolical men taught was considered orthodox. Arius, in Athanasius’ view, would not have been charged with heresy if what he was teaching was also taught by apostolical men. That it wasn’t was a sure sign of heterodoxy.

Now, the early church was quick to refute any novel interpretations of Scritpure, just as that of Vigilantius (who St. Jerome calls a “tavern-keeper”). We have a pillar and foundation of truth, and it isn’t the opinions of any man, tavern-keeper or not. It is the Church. Any tavern-keeper can offer variant doctrines from that which was handed on everywhere and always by apostolical men. So one must weigh the testimony of a tavern-keeper against the testimony of apostolical men in different ways, I think.

The date of Easter, for example, was hotly disputed in the early Church. Doesn’t seem the Church ever had a real dispute over the matter that Vigilantius asserted, does it? The Church, instead, seemed to quickly and easily refute the tavern-keeper Vigilantius, and then continue it’s pious practice of requesting intercessory prayers of the angels and saints in heaven.
 
I could be way of base on this but, in other “arguements” such as this, I’ve seen where Protestants say that those who have gone before us are NOT alive so therefore they cannot hear our prayers.

Could it be that the sticking point on intercessory prayer is that they don’t believe that the “saints” in heaven are ALIVE?
Scripture clearly says that they are.
 
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DianJo:
I could be way of base on this but, in other “arguements” such as this, I’ve seen where Protestants say that those who have gone before us are NOT alive so therefore they cannot hear our prayers.

Could it be that the sticking point on intercessory prayer is that they don’t believe that the “saints” in heaven are ALIVE?
Scripture clearly says that they are.
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I know some groups, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists, promote the doctrine of “soul sleep”- that is, the souls of the departed are in some sort of unconcious state until the Resurrection.
 
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RNRobert:
I know some groups, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists, promote the doctrine of “soul sleep”- that is, the souls of the departed are in some sort of unconcious state until the Resurrection.
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Yeah, I know, I’ve heard of that “soul sleep” thing, but the Protestants I have spoken to are not JWs or SDAs. They are more often than not , non-denominationals.

Anyway…
 
The soul-sleep thing is another variety of the argument. As a Reformed guy, I understand the state of men after death to be basically that our bodies are in the ground (or at the bottom of the ocean, or wherever they happen to be) and the souls of the saved are in heaven with God, worshipping there. After the Judgement, then our souls are reunited with our resurrected bodies, and then we are judged. Not like the saved will be sent to hell, and vice versa, but rather that their souls are temporarily where they will be eternally after the resurrection.

But don’t let me get us off topic. Soul sleep would present some problems to the intercession of saints, but that’s not my contention. Personally, I don’t consider “non-denominational” believers to be “Protestant.” Nothing personal, but they’re not closely united with the Protestant Churches that resulted from the Reformation. Not in name, teaching, or really anything beyond the fact that they’re in non-Catholic churches. If they “Protest” the RCC, then they could be Protestants, but the Protestant Reformers also “Reformed” by leaving the RCC and starting their own.

Anyways, time to start with a fresh post!
 
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itsjustdave1988:
ReformedBob,

Just because we can cite a heretic, such as Arius, as denying the Divinity of Christ, or Vigilantius denying that which the Church believed, doesn’t mean that his was an acceptable Christian teaching, does it?

Can you cite an orthodox father who denied the efficacy of intercessory prayers? Or is it just heretics in your defense? Have you read St. Jerome’s defense? If so, how is it that you can in any way believe Vigilantius was orthodox?
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Dave,

You made the exact point that St. Francis de Sales made, and I was hoping you would not make. That was just a bluff on my part. You did well 👍, or at least you gave a good Catholic Answer.

So, here I am! A night or 2 ago I read the chapter on Intercession of the Saints in my “Faith of our Fathers” book by Cardinal Gibbons, and he was quite thorough in a matter of 10 pages or so.

I must say that you are certainly unified in your answers on most any subject. Kudos to you for that! Does that mean that I believe the Catholic view now? Well, I’ve been on the verge of it and actually acted as though I believed it were true for at least several weeks not at times.

So, I’ll say this, so this post won’t have to go to a second page: The Reformed teaching has a little reason perhaps, but has to be presented with bristling emotion in order to seem to carry any weight at all. The Catholic teaching comes across very strong, even when accompanied with very little emotion, simply because it is so reasonable. So, don’t keep writing for my sake. There can be plenty of good discussion and points made for sure, but I don’t need any more convincing. I just need conversion to thinking and acting that way.

Thanks!
 
Reformed Rob:
This isn’t meant to ridicule your Catholic beliefs, rather it is meant to be the ultimate apologetic confrontation on this topic.

Most of these you’ve probably heard and answered time and time again. At least one, I hope, is new to you.
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Ultimate, huh? I think if you search several threads (especially in the non-Catholic religion section) you will find your arguments miss the point entirely and attack the Protestant idea of communion of the saints – not actual Catholic teaching. The conversation naturally ends when you insist on what we believe despite our best intentions to carefully and clearly tell you what we believe.

If you were sincere in your approach, you would read our arguments first and format your argument with them in mind. Normally when I deal with someone who wants to disprove my faith, I give them materials with incriminating material (ie a list of popes complete with anti-popes). The idea being that I am “helping” them to better attack the faith.
 
Reformed Rob:
Dave,

I must say that you are certainly unified in your answers on most any subject. Kudos to you for that! Does that mean that I believe the Catholic view now? Well, I’ve been on the verge of it and actually acted as though I believed it were true for at least several weeks not at times.

So, I’ll say this, so this post won’t have to go to a second page: The Reformed teaching has a little reason perhaps, but has to be presented with bristling emotion in order to seem to carry any weight at all. The Catholic teaching comes across very strong, even when accompanied with very little emotion, simply because it is so reasonable. So, don’t keep writing for my sake. There can be plenty of good discussion and points made for sure, but I don’t need any more convincing. I just need conversion to thinking and acting that way.
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Sounds like you’re well on your way to becoming Catholic! 👍
 
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Origen:
Revelation 8:3

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.

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But when I offered this to my sister who has left the CC she said their were no cannonized saints when this was writen, that means all Christian’s prayers. What do I say to her?
 
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DianJo:
Yeah, I know, I’ve heard of that “soul sleep” thing, but the Protestants I have spoken to are not JWs or SDAs. They are more often than not , non-denominationals.

Anyway…
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My sister (non-denominational) says “asleep in the bosom of Abraham.” Not for sure where that is, I’ve just heard her say it.
 
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lewlo:
But when I offered this to my sister who has left the CC she said their were no cannonized saints when this was writen, that means all Christian’s prayers. What do I say to her?
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All those whose souls are in Heaven are saints, plain and simple. The canonized Saints are those the Church has declared to be positively in Heaven (we don’t know the status of anyone else).

In other words, the prayers of the saints mentioned in that verse refers to the prayers of everyone in heaven (who isn’t God or an angel). After all, St. Paul went around calling everyone saints all the time…it’s in Scripture (and there were no canonized Saints around then either 😉 ).
 
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lewlo:
But when I offered this to my sister who has left the CC she said their were no cannonized saints when this was writen, that means all Christian’s prayers. What do I say to her?
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That seems like a thoughtful question on the surface, but consider 3 things:
  1. Are only “canonized” saints in heaven?
  2. When was the book of Revelation written?
  3. What is being depicted here in Revelation?
Ok, I’ll only seriously address #1 and #2.

First, for #2 I’ll say that I’m aware of 2 distinct proposals of when Revelation was written, or at least “experienced.” My denomination believes strongly that it was before A.D. 70, and is in part a prophecy of the fall of Jerusalem. Dispensational groups will claim that it was written maybe about 95 A.D. That may seem insignificant, but it’s really pretty important. If indeed it refers forward to the fall of Jerusalem (which was a major historical/religious event) then we can say that, like Matthew 23, there is a very strong argument that the catastrophies are prophecies/warnings about the seige and fall of Jerusalem, and therefore we shouldn’t go too far trying to get “Rapture” and “Armaggedon” and all that out of the book. But if it was around A.D. 95, then it makes sense that it’s so future oriented, that the Dispensational groups might actually have some credibility. I think the Church also affirms the pre-A.D. 70, but I’m not sure.

Well, that’s for #2. Now, for #1. Whenever it was written, it was certainly written after the death and resurrection of Christ. So, there were “people” in heaven. People saved by God’s grace through Christ’s sacrifice for their sins. Catholics should understant that being Canonized as a saint doesn’t mean that that person then enters heaven. Rather, it’s an earthly recognition that that person is to be called upon as a Saint, and will have a feast day. Please see my post here regarding this topic. There’s plenty of investigation, guidelines to follow, and steps to be taken towards being recognized as a Saint. I think the Magesterium take it rather seriously, since it is an exercise of the Church’s Infalliblity.

So, just because there may not have been any “canonized
saints” in heaven, certainly doesn’t rule out there being any godly people in heaven, offering up their prayers to God.

The question comes from an assumption perhaps that only canonized saints are in heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth, according to Catholic teaching as I understand it.
 
The enemies of the Holy mother Church, often attack the onn true church on the practice praying to Mary and the Saints. They shout the claim that this ancient practice is " Un-biblical and was not held by the early Christians ". A quick reference through scripture and the historical writings of the early Christians more than vindicates Catholics of these false charges.First is important for us to define the term PRAYER: the act of asking for a favor with earnestness. A petition (Webster’s living encyclopedic dictionary of the English language) .

+++Even in the old Testament we read biblical proof for this practice.Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalm 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2)

+++The new Testament also bears the truth on the subject we know that those in heaven (angels, and saints) have the power to intercede with God on our behalf “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matt. 18:10). Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

+++Unlike what many Protestants would like to believe, the Catholic biblical practice of asking saints and angels to pray for us. does not eliminate Christ’s position as the only Mediator between man and God. (1 Tim. 2:5), the Church has always taught that Christ alone holds this special position. but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16). We see that asking God’s friends in heaven (the saints and angels) to intercede with Christ (God) through their prayers on our behalf is not only biblical, but proper. 🙂
 
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lewlo:
My sister (non-denominational) says “asleep in the bosom of Abraham.” Not for sure where that is, I’ve just heard her say it.
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The ‘bosom of Abraham comes from Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Luke 16:19-31. However, in that parable, both Lazrarus (at Abraham’s bosom) and the Rich Man (tormented in the netherworld) are concious and aware of their surroundings. Otherwise, how could the rich man ask Abraham to send Lazarus some water?
 
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AServantofGod:
Hi ReformedRob,

I myself am not very good at enlightened discussion. For that reason I turn you to Patrick Madrid and his book, *Any Friend of God’s Is a Friend of Mine *which is designed to address the issue of Saints from a Catholic and biblical perspective. It is directed to those who ask or have to answer questions such as the ones you posted here.

ANY FRIEND OF GOD’S IS A FRIEND OF MINE
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Ok, thank you, as I said, I did order that book, have read most of it, and am convinced. Wow! Perhaps this was the ultimate confrontation on this topic, it actually got somewhere and the Catholics won!!

As a fun tale, I just had a conversation about this with a friend from church a couple nights ago, and I think I answered him so well that he wasn’t able to come up with any good objections! I say that not to “praise me” but rather just to say, that if somebody is reasonable and attentive, then it’s SO SIMPLE to understand, that there’s really no good reason to deny it. It doesn’t require a 300 page treatise. Some Scripture, Church Father quotes, and Madrid’s 120 page book is more than enough.
 
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