Praying to " saints" dilemma

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If someone has an attitudinal issue about not praying to saints then I think that would be an impediment to becoming Catholic.
 
So a better analogy would be this: you are asking Dad for the car in the living room, in front of mom and your siblings. When dad says “no, it’s getting late and there are too many crazy drivers out on the road.” So you turn to mom and say, “Mom, you know I can be trusted. Could you please tell dad that he can trust me to be safe and has little to worry about? I promise to drive safely and be home by 9.” Then, your older siblings chime in saying “Dad, Naiveessence is a better driver than we are.” So dad looks at everyone, smiles and then says “Ok, you can have the car. Drive safe, I love you, and I know I can trust you.”
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I see your point with the mother and siblings loosening up the father to help you out but at the end of the day the father is the one that gives the shots. For example when Abraham was pleading with God to have mercy on sodom. God loves Abraham a lot but at the end of the day he still destroyed Sodom, I know he saved Lot’s family but Sodom was destroyed , even though Abraham pleaded with God. So even if the mothers tells the father or the siblings tells the father, it doesn’t make a difference because the father is the shot caller. So it’s better to talk To the father directly, and if he denies you petition, it’s for a reason. Maybe you don’t know why but he does.
 
Don’t you remember that what father said, they dont say that if you go to church then only for a reason that you want to communicate with Jesus. Jesus is present in all the things, If you want to convey your message to jesus then only pray him/her. Helped other people.
 
I’m not overly fond of the idea that we pray to the saints to “loosen up” dad, either. It’s not like God doesn’t know our needs and will only give them to us if others plead with him for us. People mean well when they come up with this scenario, but I think it is misleading.

Rather, we ask the intercession and heavenly aid of Mary and the other Saints because we are united with them in Christ as members of his one body. Those in heaven are not dead. Jesus himself told us so in the Gospels. They are very much alive–more alive than we are because they enjoy the vision of God unimpeded by a nature marred by sin and the inclination to sin.

Also, since they are now with God and cannot oppose his will, even in the smallest thing (as we on earth can–no matter how well-intentioned we might be), their intercession is pure of selfish motives and any taint of sin. So, they ask in perfect harmony with God’s will for us. We have these perfect persons on our side as prayer warriors who cannot tire in their prayers or be distracted from God’s presence. Think of how powerful that is in the order of God’s grace, for it is the Holy Spirit who gives them this ability–they don’t possess it on their own.

When we offer our prayers through the intercession of Mary and the Saints they present them to God purified of all our selfish desires, which even the best of us can have. They know that whatever they ask in their perfected state will be pleasing to God. God may still say no, that’s up to him, but we will have presented our needs cleansed and in conformity with God’s will. And this, in turn, helps us to trust more fully in God because Mary and the Saints are helpers in our salvation not hindrances.
 
One way to look at it is this.

You work in a huge corporation. The CEO delegates various responsibilities to employees who he/she trusts absolutely. You have a need of some kind - say a few dollars from petty cash to pay for some office supplies.

Can you go to the CEO direct and ask him or her? Probably, after all everything about the business ultimately is the CEO’s responsibility. But if you did, he/she would surely say “look, Joan over in accounts is in charge of petty cash - next time just ask her.”

Mary and the Saints had privileges and powers while they were on earth - they certainly have no less in heaven, in fact they have more as now they are perfect and perfectly trustworthy.
 
LilyM said:
One way to look at it is this.

You work in a huge corporation. The CEO delegates various responsibilities to employees who he/she trusts absolutely. You have a need of some kind - say a few dollars from petty cash to pay for some office supplies.

Can you go to the CEO direct and ask him or her? Probably, after all everything about the business ultimately is the CEO’s responsibility. But if you did, he/she would surely say “look, Joan over in accounts is in charge of petty cash - next time just ask her.”

Mary and the Saints had privileges and powers while they were on earth - they certainly have no less in heaven, in fact they have more as now they are perfect and perfectly trustworthy.
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I had an experience of this, if I may interject a personal anecdote. When I was newly Catholic I was being spiritaully attacked by the devil (one of his minions no doubt). I called on Jesus, he directed me to Mary. I called on Mary, she directed me to St. Michael. I didn’t know the prayer to St. Michael yet so I simply asked, “Please St. Michael help me.” Bam! Just like that the attack ended. I saw that demon fall into the abyss in my mind’s eye. Oh yes, I know and believe that God intended for the saints and angels to aid us by his power.
 
The Catholic Church should teach there followers the right faith truly. I know a lot of Catholics who genuinely pray to saints and Mary, and believe that the actual saint or Mary gives them a miracle. Instead of giving the glory to God, they give it to the saint or Mary and This is wrong. The catholic teaches that saints and Mary are just Intercessors, and the actual miracle comes from God. But most Catholics are ignorant to that, they just here the priest etc, telling them to ask saints and Mary for there intercession but they go out and actually pray directly to the saints or Mary for a miracle. What the catholic church needs to do is, instead of emphasizing on saints and Mary, they should emphasize it more on Jesus. For example , for every our father prayer in the rosary theirs double that for Mary. So every time they tell there followers to ask Mary and the saints for intercessions, theirs a greater chance they may misunderstand it and rely on the saints to actually give them a miracle And that would be sinning in the eyes of God. But let’s say they always said to ask Jesus for a miracle then it wouldn’t be a greater chance of misunderstanding, because Jesus tells us the only way to the father is through him.
 
Naiveessence said:
The Catholic Church should teach there followers the right faith truly.
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It does.
I know a lot of Catholics who genuinely pray to saints and Mary, and believe that the actual saint or Mary gives them a miracle. Instead of giving the glory to God, they give it to the saint or Mary and This is wrong.
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How do you know they give the glory to Mary or a saint, instead of to God? Do you read hearts?
The catholic teaches that saints and Mary are just Intercessors, and the actual miracle comes from God. But most Catholics are ignorant to that, they just here the priest etc, telling them to ask saints and Mary for there intercession but they go out and actually pray directly to the saints or Mary for a miracle.
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Again, how do you know what “most Catholics” understand about our faith?
What the catholic church needs to do is, instead of emphasizing on saints and Mary, they should emphasize it more on Jesus. For example , for every our father prayer in the rosary theirs double that for Mary.
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The entire Rosary is about Our Lord. We pray it to meditate on the events of His life and our salvation.
So every time they tell there followers to ask Mary and the saints for intercessions, theirs a greater chance they may misunderstand it and rely on the saints to actually give them a miracle And that would be sinning in the eyes of God. But let’s say they always said to ask Jesus for a miracle then it wouldn’t be a greater chance of misunderstanding, because Jesus tells us the only way to the father is through him.
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It seems that you are the one with the misunderstandings. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is available free online. You should start there to learn more.
 
Naiveessence said:
The catholic teaches that saints and Mary are just Intercessors, and the actual miracle comes from God. But most Catholics are ignorant to that,
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Really? And your qualifications to make that determination are what exactly? Because out of 1.2 billion Catholics worldwde you have some friends who misunderstand the faith? Sorry, that hardly constitutes “most Catholics”.
 
Naiveessence said:
The Catholic Church should teach there followers the right faith truly. I know a lot of Catholics who genuinely pray to saints and Mary, and believe that the actual saint or Mary gives them a miracle. Instead of giving the glory to God, they give it to the saint or Mary and This is wrong. The catholic teaches that saints and Mary are just Intercessors, and the actual miracle comes from God. But most Catholics are ignorant to that, they just here the priest etc, telling them to ask saints and Mary for there intercession but they go out and actually pray directly to the saints or Mary for a miracle. What the catholic church needs to do is, instead of emphasizing on saints and Mary, they should emphasize it more on Jesus. For example , for every our father prayer in the rosary theirs double that for Mary. So every time they tell there followers to ask Mary and the saints for intercessions, theirs a greater chance they may misunderstand it and rely on the saints to actually give them a miracle And that would be sinning in the eyes of God. But let’s say they always said to ask Jesus for a miracle then it wouldn’t be a greater chance of misunderstanding, because Jesus tells us the only way to the father is through him.
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This post clearly illustrates your lack of any authentic understanding of the Communion of Saints. It is hard to have a dialogue on this subject when your perception of this is so skewed.

Perhaps you could read this short article which will address all your points above, then you will be better able to understand and discuss our belief.

catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
 
Tigg said:
This post clearly illustrates your lack of any authentic understanding of the Communion of Saints. It is hard to have a dialogue on this subject when your perception of this is so skewed.

Perhaps you could read this short article which will address all your points above, then you will be better able to understand and discuss our belief.

catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
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Well said. I hope that the OP will take the time to try to determine what a Catholic believes by reading the truth about our faith rather making presumptions in error.
 
I ask saint Anthony to help me find missing items…it took awhile for two missing soundtracks…but I found them. Sometimes I may be missing an item like my wallet or something…and I say the little prayer…I find it.

Saints INTERCEDE for us…

Read about Saint Therese of Lisieux and the many rose stories. These are special men and women who are close to God that intercede on our behalf.

As for Mary…who better to intercede for us, to ask HER SON, than the MOTHER of the Savior?
 
Naiveessence said:
The Catholic Church should teach there followers the right faith truly. I know a lot of Catholics who genuinely pray to saints and Mary, and believe that the actual saint or Mary gives them a miracle. Instead of giving the glory to God, they give it to the saint or Mary and This is wrong. The catholic teaches that saints and Mary are just Intercessors, and the actual miracle comes from God. But most Catholics are ignorant to that, they just here the priest etc, telling them to ask saints and Mary for there intercession but they go out and actually pray directly to the saints or Mary for a miracle. What the catholic church needs to do is, instead of emphasizing on saints and Mary, they should emphasize it more on Jesus. For example , for every our father prayer in the rosary theirs double that for Mary. So every time they tell there followers to ask Mary and the saints for intercessions, theirs a greater chance they may misunderstand it and rely on the saints to actually give them a miracle And that would be sinning in the eyes of God. But let’s say they always said to ask Jesus for a miracle then it wouldn’t be a greater chance of misunderstanding, because Jesus tells us the only way to the father is through him.
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I don’t think you understand either the intercession of saints or the Rosary well enough to speak about them like that.

I have a blog article that may help you with the The Intercession & Communion of Saints and CA has excellent information on the Rosary at the following links.


  1. *]The Rosary
    *]Is Prayer Synonymous With Worship?
    *]Saint Worship?
    *]Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine
 
Naiveessence said:
I always thought of it like this, for example , a family and kids. The father being the head. Lets say I have a problem and need help. So I go around asking my brothers and sisters to help me out, to ask my father to help me. While I’m asking my brothers and sisters, my fathers looking at me and is asking , why isn’t he asking me directly if he knows I can help him. Doesn’t my son know I already know his problem and I’m just waiting for him to ask so I can help him?
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Right on target.

I frequently pray to Saint Jude. In fact, I never really pray these days without including him.
Recently there was a novena on the Catholic Calendar.
I learned that persistent doubt can play a great part in this: but it isn’t really doubt as I will try to explain.
Saint Jude wrote a letter. It is powerful, because he was friend and servant of Jesus.
When you pray to your saint, you must remember that you can “say” anything you want. The answers you get are what need be reflected upon, in my opinion. Ultimately, the presence of Jesus at those times is like the final “backdrop” against which all is tested for clarity; praying to the Saint will bring you to the name of Jesus, which will bring the Lord himself. If anything contradicts your conscience informed by Jesus, you wonder if it’s not the Saint. So by developing faith in the Saint who you are gathering with in prayer, a faith based on his or her revealing Jesus as in the midst of the two of [you], then you are mysteriously drawn into that dialogue with God. The Saint you gather with may have all the answers you need: and eventually it dawns [on me] that God knows what I can’t express properly to my Patron Saint because it is inexpressible. Once I turn to God, It only brings out more expression, things the Saint now knows about me because I said so in prayer. The cycle continues. What some people call the weakness of praying/relying upon Saints is actually the greatest thing. Because we are not initially sure of where we stand with them communicating to us because it requires deep understanding of a mystery (the Communion of Saints), we have to consult God for discernment in light of Jesus. I want to say that the Lord is like a metric used to measure the value of any communication with the Saint. Else we we not need worship God because the Saint would suffice.
The Saint opens us up to the presence of the Lord where we might feel too disconnected to approach Him. The Saint is like a practical advocate. Motivated by knowing his or her life, you feel justified not in your final salvation which always includes the possibility of grave error and loss of grace, but justified in having a path that was like yours trod on earth with mistakes and errors and that yet unquestionably led to heaven. The Saint isn’t more personal than the Lord, but can be a means of justifying not your errors, but the faith you need in the Lord’s forgiveness of these errors. If the Saint is that powerful and kind to you, it might be worth questioning whether he is she is any different from God in heaven or in your life.

And much, much, much more.
 
I will say I’ve always thought the idea of telling people that things like prayer to saints or veneration of icons are optional is a really, really bad idea. Prayer to saints and all of its implications are an absolutely central doctrine of the Christian faith. I think it’s better to tell people to take more time to understand the teaching rather than saying you can take it or leave it.
 
Naiveessence said:
I always thought of it like this, for example , a family and kids. The father being the head. Lets say I have a problem and need help. So I go around asking my brothers and sisters to help me out, to ask my father to help me. While I’m asking my brothers and sisters, my fathers looking at me and is asking , why isn’t he asking me directly if he knows I can help him. Doesn’t my son know I already know his problem and I’m just waiting for him to ask so I can help him?
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The same analogy can be made when you ask your fellow Christians on earth for prayer. Does the father in this case still wonder why one of his sons is asking his brothers and sisters when he can go directly to dad? You see it works both ways. But here is the answer, this is the way God designed His Kingdom. As the song by the artist “Tenth Avenue North” goes…“No man is an Island.”

God created us to be a community, we are not independent of one another. We have both a personal and a communical relationship with our Creator. The whole church makes up the body of Christ and this includes saints in heaven. So when one part is injured we are all affected and need mercy and grace to be restored again. This is why we have the sacrament of reconcilliation. SACRAment from the word SACRAFICE.

Peace,

David
 
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