Praying to " saints" dilemma

[Usagi]

Right. The “changing Dad’s mind” idea is a little dangerous, since God does not change, but the same would apply to prayer by an individual or group on earth. It’s not just an issue with the heavenly saints.

If you believe (as Scripture seems to indicate) that God will sometimes respond to the prayers of many Christians more positively than to the prayers of one, then you already have the issue of going to your brothers and sisters for help with your request to the Father, even if you are all alive on this earth. If that’s okay, including your brothers and sisters in Heaven shouldn’t be that big a leap.

If you believe that God does not literally change His mind at human behest, but merely values the love His children show by joining in prayer with and for one another (and then grants what He, in His infinite wisdom, was going to grant anyway), then once again the question of whether those joining in prayer are all on earth or some on earth and some in Heaven shouldn’t make that much of a difference.

In short, the central issue is with intercessory prayer itself, and the idea of asking for it. Does it make a difference, or at least please God? If the answer is yes (as it seems to be from most all Christians), then the difference between asking earthly saints, heavenly ones, or a combination is a comparatively minor matter. All the objections to “not just going to Dad” apply to gathering prayer warriors on earth as well, yet no one seems to have a problem with recruiting folks to besiege Heaven when bad situations strike. Catholics and members of other ancient churches just have the additional custom of including those who have gone before us in our recruitment efforts.

Usagi

 

[Ignatius]

I will say I’ve always thought the idea of telling people that things like prayer to saints or veneration of icons are optional is a really, really bad idea. Prayer to saints and all of its implications are an absolutely central doctrine of the Christian faith. I think it’s better to tell people to take more time to understand the teaching rather than saying you can take it or leave it.

Slava Isusu Christo

I’m directly answering the OP question. One can live one’s entire life without ever asking for the intercession of the heavenly Saints or venerating a Holy Icon and, with frequent reception of the Holy Mysteries, grow in Faith and grow closer to God.
For some, this may be all that God has for them even though, to us, it may seem they are mission out on so much grace and blessings.

 

[Seraphim73]

I’m directly answering the OP question. One can, in fact, live one’s entire life without ever asking for the intercession of the heavenly Saints or venerating a Holy Icon and, with frequent reception of the Holy Mysteries, grow in Faith and Grow closer to God. For some, this may be all that God has for them even though, to us, it may seem they are mission out on so much grace and blessings.

I think it’s extremely difficult to grow in faith if you deny a central doctrine of the faith.

 

[Della]

I think some people fear that they will love Mary and the saints more than they love God if they ask for their intercession/heavenly aid. That idea is very much like my cats’ reactions when I show one of them attention and the others become jealous. I tell them (although I know they can’t understand my words) that love isn’t like that. The more we give away, the more we have to give. God is not jealous of prayers to Mary and the saints. Just the opposite. He wants us to share his love with them, with the souls in purgatory, and with those still living with us on earth. Love grows not diminishes as it is given to others. I can love Mary as much as I want because loving her only increases my love for God. Love overflows not dries up as we share it and apply it. Many don’t seem to understand this concept because it’s contrary to how the world thinks. But we are talking about heavenly love here, not mere earthly affections. There is no way one who loves Mary and the saints can possibly not love God all the more.

 

[Ignatius]

Seraphim73;12470362:

I will say I’ve always thought the idea of telling people that things like prayer to saints or veneration of icons are optional is a really, really

bad idea. Prayer to saints and all of its implications are an absolutely central doctrine of the Christian faith. I think it’s better to tell people to take more time to understand the teaching rather than saying you can take it or leave it.

Slava Isusu Christo

I’m directly answering the OP question. One can live one’s entire life without ever asking for the intercession of the heavenly Saints or venerating a Holy Icon and, with frequent reception of the Holy Mysteries, grow in Faith and grow closer to God.
For some, this may be all that God has for them even though, to us, it may seem they are mission out on so much grace and blessings.
I think it’s extremely difficult to grow in faith if you deny a central doctrine of the faith.

Slava Isusu Christo!

I would agree that it is extremely difficult, and I would not want to be in that position.
But it is better to have access to the Holy Mysteries, especially the Holy Eucharist, then to be apart from it.
Perhaps this may be all that God has for some even though, to us, it may seem they are missing out on so much grace and blessings.

 

[Della]

I think it’s extremely difficult to grow in faith if you deny a central doctrine of the faith.

Deny might be too strong a word. Misunderstand/be afraid of might be a better way of expressing it for those Catholics who have reservations about the Communion of Saints. A person might intellectually accept it, but not understand it or want to practice it. If they don’t understand they should pray about it, read up on it, and perhaps ask their priest for help. If they are afraid for some reason, they should also probably talk to their priest and pray about it so their fears may be allayed. If they dont’ want to practice it, they should probably talk to a spiritual director to get to the heart of why they don’t. All the teachings of the Church are for our benefit, not merely to keep rules and regs. We indeed deny ourselves all God wants for us if we balk at practicing those things that are meant for our good.

 

[Seraphim73]

Slava Isusu Christo!

I would agree that it is extremely difficult, and I would not want to be in that position.
But it is better to have access to the Holy Mysteries, especially the Holy Eucharist, then to be apart from it.
Perhaps this may be all that God has for some even though, to us, it may seem they are missing out on so much grace and blessings.

I understand what you are saying. Of course lots of people struggle with various teachings at times. We are all human after all. What I object to is telling people it’s okay to not accept things such as prayer to the saints. It’s not okay. What we have to say is that these teachings are essential and that you have to continue to pray and try to understand.

 

[Seraphim73]

Deny might be too strong a word. Misunderstand/be afraid of might be a better way of expressing it for those Catholics who have reservations about the Communion of Saints. A person might intellectually accept it, but not understand it or want to practice it. If they don’t understand they should pray about it, read up on it, and perhaps ask their priest for help. If they are afraid for some reason, they should also probably talk to their priest and pray about it so their fears may be allayed. If they dont’ want to practice it, they should probably talk to a spiritual director to get to the heart of why they don’t. All the teachings of the Church are for our benefit, not merely to keep rules and regs. We indeed deny ourselves all God wants for us if we balk at practicing those things that are meant for our good.

I understand what you are saying but the reality is what we do is what we believe.

 

[Della]

I understand what you are saying but the reality is what we do is what we believe.

True, but people have to come to belief in their own time. No one can be forced to understand/accept/practice anything.

 

[pianistclare]

I think some people fear that they will love Mary and the saints more than they love God if they ask for their intercession/heavenly aid. That idea is very much like my cats’ reactions when I show one of them attention and the others become jealous. I tell them (although I know they can’t understand my words) that love isn’t like that. The more we give away, the more we have to give. God is not jealous of prayers to Mary and the saints. Just the opposite. He wants us to share his love with them, with the souls in purgatory, and with those still living with us on earth. Love grows not diminishes as it is given to others. I can love Mary as much as I want because loving her only increases my love for God. Love overflows not dries up as we share it and apply it. Many don’t seem to understand this concept because it’s contrary to how the world thinks. But we are talking about heavenly love here, not mere earthly affections. There is no way one who loves Mary and the saints can possibly not love God all the more.

Exactly.
I might add. that no matter how much one prays to a particular saint, or Our Lady, nothing contrary to God’s will, will occur. He has control of what gets granted and what get tabled for a better time.
It is a problem of how we humans thing about relationships. Even with God.
Peace.
Thanks for this, Della.

 

[Della]

Exactly.
I might add. that no matter how much one prays to a particular saint, or Our Lady, nothing contrary to God’s will, will occur. He has control of what gets granted and what get tabled for a better time.

Indeed. Mary and the saints present our needs devoid of all self-interest or taint of sin. Whether or not a prayer is answered to our liking is another matter entirely involving our own dispositions/needs.

It is a problem of how we humans thing about relationships. Even with God.

Again, how true! We are immersed in a society/world in which we only get what we put into something. But God isn’t like that. It’s like the 5 loaves and 2 small fish Jesus used to feed 5 thousand men. We give him our little offering of love and he increases it 5 thousandfold. We can never give enough love to anyone and be lacking in love for another–there’s always more to give and to share.

Peace.
Thanks for this, Della.

Peace to you and yours, as well. :tiphat:

 

[MarkInOregon]

Slava Isusu Christo

I’m directly answering the OP question. One can live one’s entire life without ever asking for the intercession of the heavenly Saints or venerating a Holy Icon and, with frequent reception of the Holy Mysteries, grow in Faith and grow closer to God.
For some, this may be all that God has for them even though, to us, it may seem they are mission out on so much grace and blessings.

Do you attend mass? If one does one cannot live ones entire life without ever asking for the intercession of the heavenly saints–unless one does not participate in the prayers of the mass. We ask for intercession every Sunday – “I ask the blessed Mary ever virgin, all the angels and saints and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God”

The Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

can a catholic go to church and only pray to Jesus Christ. Can he choose not to ask the saints or Mary to intercede for him but pray to Jesus directly or ask Jesus followers here on earth to pray for him. Also instead of going to confession and get forgiven by a priest, can he directly ask Jesus to forgive him. Can he choose not to join in a prayer to a saint or Mary at church. Does the catholic allow this?

I didn’t see anyone mention this–the priest does not forgive our sins. God through the priest forgives our sins.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) paragraph 1441: “Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, ‘The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins’ and exercises this divine power: ‘Your sins are forgiven.’ Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.”

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[ericc]

I always thought of it like this, for example , a family and kids. The father being the head. Lets say I have a problem and need help. So I go around asking my brothers and sisters to help me out, to ask my father to help me. While I’m asking my brothers and sisters, my fathers looking at me and is asking , why isn’t he asking me directly if he knows I can help him. Doesn’t my son know I already know his problem and I’m just waiting for him to ask so I can help him?

If your child is having problems with his school work, isn’t it natural for him to ask his older siblings who have done it previously for help before going higher up? Why the reluctance? Afraid of being laughed at? That is silly.

In some cultures, going to the father is the last step before checking out with mum/siblings/friends. In fact, I hardly hear of teenagers going straight to Dad by default to discuss their teenage issues. Even less if they are teenage daughters. They usually check with their older sisters/friends/mum in that sequence depending on closeness. Dad? Dad has to take a number.

But on a serious note, if I have a serious need, I’d ask EVERYONE. Whoever can help, I’d ask. Perhaps Father would like to see how badly I am in need of help. He may intervene immediately or he may let me experience some discomfort first to strengthen me for future battles.