Praying to saints/Mary

[sandusky]

johnshelby:

Matthew 27: ( KJV )
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

is this the type of resurrection you were asking about??

I don’t think that was a resurrection. Christ says He will raise up the dead on the last day. Surely that day has not yet occurred.

Those coming out of the graves have more in common with Lazarus, who was brought back to life from the dead, but not resurrected and glorified.

There is only one with that distinction.

 

[sandusky]

Todd Easton:

The intercession of the Holy Souls in Purgatory on behalf of the living is not without Scriptural support. As mentioned above by JaneFrances, in the story Jesus told of the rich man and poor Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), the deceased rich man from his fiery torment interceded for his living brothers.

There was an attempted intercession, but that was denied.

Abraham told the rich man that his brothers had the scripture and that they should hear it, and if they didn’t hear it, then they would not be persuaded even if one rises from the dead.

 

[johnshelby]

sandusky:

I don’t think that was a resurrection. Christ says He will raise up the dead on the last day. Surely that day has not yet occurred.

Those coming out of the graves have more in common with Lazarus, who was brought back to life from the dead, but not resurrected and glorified.

There is only one with that distinction.

there is a distinction?? they were saints… raised from their
graves… so, you believe that they then continued to live their
lives among people until they died again??

they were ‘asleep’ in their graves, in the bosom of Abraham,
then were yanked away to live again on earth??

i’ve never heard that opinion… course, i’m not exactly well
read…

 

[johnshelby]

sandusky:

There was an attempted intercession, but that was denied.

Abraham told the rich man that his brothers had the scripture and that they should hear it, and if they didn’t hear it, then they would not be persuaded even if one rises from the dead.

not all prayers are answered in the way we want, when we pray
them… the question was not if they were answered, but if the
prayers could be offered…

and they were…

 

[sandusky]

johnshelby:

there is a distinction?? they were saints… raised from their
graves… so, you believe that they then continued to live their
lives among people until they died again??

they were ‘asleep’ in their graves, in the bosom of Abraham,
then were yanked away to live again on earth??

i’ve never heard that opinion… course, i’m not exactly well
read…

Again, Lazarus was raised from the dead; he was not resurrected from the dead.

Resurrection of the dead is a singular eschatalogical and universal event, accompanied by judgment. It has not happened yet.

 

[sandusky]

johnshelby:

not all prayers are answered in the way we want, when we pray
them… the question was not if they were answered, but if the
prayers could be offered…

and they were…

The point of the parable, which is directed at the Pharisees (context is important), is understand and heed the scripture. That is clearly seen in the “punch line.”

If you want to use it to support intercessory prayer to the dead, go ahead; that is not the lesson Jesus is teaching.

 

[johnshelby]

sandusky:

The point of the parable, which is directed at the Pharisees (context is important), is understand and heed the scripture. That is clearly seen in the “punch line.”

If you want to use it to support intercessory prayer to the dead, go ahead; that is not the lesson Jesus is teaching.

i understand the lesson Jesus was speaking to…

but, if Jesus used prayer to someone in ‘Abraham’s bosom’,
for people still living, in His lesson… then i’m assuming it was
something He knew the people would accept…

plus…

“Resurrection is the rising again from the dead,
the resumption of life”

res·ur·rec·tion Key (rz-rkshn)
n.

1. The act of rising from the dead or returning to life.

but, i understand what you mean, as in The Resurrection at
the last Judgement…

i guess this will just be one of those things we’ll never
agree on…

 

[Kristina_P]

Todd Easton:

According to the online 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia article on Purgatory, Section IV (Invocation of Souls):
Do the souls in purgatory pray for us? May we call upon them in our needs? There is no decision of the Church on this subject, nor have the theologians pronounced with definiteness concerning the invocation of the souls in purgatory and their intercession for the living.
As far as I can tell this is still the case today and, while there are no public prayers to the Holy Souls in Purgatory, private prayers to the Holy Souls seem to be permitted. Here’s one such prayer I found online, here:
Prayer to Holy Souls in Purgatory
Oh holy souls in purgatory, you are the certain heirs of heaven. You are most dear to Jesus as the trophies of His Precious Blooed and to Mary, mother of mercy. Obtain for me through your intercession the grace to lead a holy life, to die a happy death, and to attain to the blessedness of eternity in heaven.
Dear suffering souls, who long to be delivered in order to praise and glorify God in heaven, by your unfailing pity help me in the needs which distress me at this time, particularly {mention your petition} so that I may obtain relief and assistance from God.
In gratitude for your intercession I offer to God in your behalf the satisfactory merits of my prayer and work, my joys and sufferings of this day.
The intercession of the Holy Souls in Purgatory on behalf of the living is not without Scriptural support. As mentioned above by JaneFrances, in the story Jesus told of the rich man and poor Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), the deceased rich man from his fiery torment interceded for his living brothers.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, apparently referring to the intercession of Holy Souls in Purgatory for us, says:
Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. (958)
However, it is unclear to me from this passage whether “their intercession for us” occurs while they are yet in Purgatory or after they, aided by our prayers, etc., have entered Heaven.

Wow! Thanks for the info!

 

[Pax]

sandusky:

…
…
With the exception of those who pray to idols, and for which practice they are condemned, scripture nowhere gives an example of people praying to anyone but God.
…
…

Sandusky,

Your point is well taken especially from the perspective of the non-Catholic versions of the bible. Passages in the deuterocanonical books contained in Catholic bibles, however, do make reference to heavenly intercession. In 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 we have an example of saintly intercession in heaven. The passage reads as follows:

“Having armed each one of them not so much with the safety given by shield and lance as with that confidence which springs from noble language, he encouraged them all by describing to them a convincing dream, a vision, as it were. What he had seen was this: Onias, the former high priest, that paragon of men, modest of bearing and gentle of manners, suitably eloquent and trained from boyhood in the practice of every virtue, Onias was stretching out his hands and praying for the whole Jewish community. Next, there appeared a man equally remarkable for his great age and dignity and invested with a marvellous and impressive air of majesty. Onias began to speak: “This is a man”, he said, “who loves his brothers and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” Jeremiah then stretched out his right hand and presented Judas with a golden sword, saying as he gave it,`Take this holy sword as a gift from God; with it you will shatter the enemy.”

It is also worth noting that the original 1611 version of the KJV bible contained the deuterocanonical books. While they were not considered by English Protestants to be on an equal footing with the rest of scripture, they were considered to be worthwhile and significant enough to be included. Furthermore, it was ordered that anyone that printed a bible without them would serve a year in prison for having done so. This was the practice in England for quite some time and the deuterocanonical books were only removed from later revisions of the KJV.

 

[Pax]

Here are a couple of more references from scripture concerning prayer to someone other than God alone.

Psalm 103:20-21
Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, obedient to his spoken word. Bless the LORD, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will.

Psalm 148:1-2
Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his host!

And we can see the unity of earthly and heavenly prayer in Rev 5:13 where it says, "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever”