Praying to saints who are resting.

[edwinG]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi,Edwin,I hope you had a blessed Christmas.On Hebrew 4 Vs 10 this has to do with them resting on the sabath just like God did when he created His creations. I dont see the point here you are trying to make. God bless

Hi Spokenword,
Thanks for asking about my Christmas. Yes my church went up into the hills a couple of hours from where I attend church and helped a church that is ministering to the local villages. We took presents to people and sang songs and played football with them and enjoyed their company. I didnt sing as my voice is enough to scare people away.
About the resting. I believe that once we finish our journey and witness for God on earth, we rest until He comes back.I feel the only exception to this is the ones who are martyred during Tribulation as they live and reign with Christ and come with Him and the angels at the end of the age. Examples are Saul and Samuel, where Saul says he was disturbed, Lazarus who would not even speak and Pauls words when he said that if he remained he could still work.
May Christ mature in your heart
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

edwinG:

Hi Vincent,
The crux of the issue is here. There is something wrong with going to the saints. It diminishes God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It shifts your focus.

Tell me what is wrong with not going to the saints.

Why cant you limit your prayers to God . Jesus gave us the model, Our Father in heaven.
May Christ grow in your hearts
Walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

It does not shift our focus on God,Jesus and the Holy spirit can not be dimished.He said you can recognise people by their fruit,right?Who makes people Holy?Jesus,right?They are examples of decreasing themselves so that Jesus can increase,and He does. So to ask the saints to pray for you to Jesus doesn’t diminish Him at all, it does acknowledge His gifts to mankind and His power to DESTROY death.God Bless

 

[edwinG]

Lisa4Catholics:

His point is to try to sit on the spiritual soapbox and accuse “us Poor Catholics” of idioltry and like we are deluded idiots inform us that Jesus is our on and only redeemer as if we didn’t know that.Good to know that edwinG has the same attributes as the almighty and can read hearts(SARCASM) Thanks spokenword and come home.God Bless

Hi Lisa4Catholics,
You make my heart glad when you write that Jesus is your one and only redeemer. Some article I saw spoke about Fatima (?) saying nothing could be done without Mary.
I dont claim to be able to read hearts, but your words scare me and I worry for you.
May Christ grow in your heart
Walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

edwinG:

Hi Lisa4Catholics,
You make my heart glad when you write that Jesus is your one and only redeemer. Some article I saw spoke about Fatima (?) saying nothing could be done without Mary.
I dont claim to be able to read hearts, but your words scare me and I worry for you.
May Christ grow in your heart
Walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

I don’t know why my words scare you,you are the one who is presumming to know our hearts and even going so far as to change the words to Sacred Scripture in order to attack Catholics.God Bless

 

[edwinG]

EdwinG, You started this thread by assuming that you know the hearts of most Catholic didn’t you? You assumed that you KNOW the Catholic Faith, didn’t you? And the you started to preach to all who would listen on just how to pray, worship and think.

Sir, it seems that you are trying to win Catholics over to your faith.

What is your faith, or what Church be represents what you believe to be The Way? You are obligated to be truthful once you start to call names, attack Catholics and tell us how to pray. Come on and get it out on the table so we can have something to talk about.

Hi Exporter,
No, I dont assume to know Catholics hearts. For one, I believe in the individual and in His leading each person on their path, so I dont lump people to the extent you suggest and in fact, I am endeavouring to have people look for their own path. Just pray for your individual work in Christ.
Additionally, you say I am preaching on how to pray, worship and think. Well if you receive my words this way, I dont disagree, but all I preach is God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. If this is wrong tell me plainly. Just stand up and say what I preach is wrong if you claim it is more than God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Yes, I am trying to win you over to Faith in Him alone.
I dont believe any denomination has exclusive territory. His Church is Christ’s body, not a denominationaly church.
If you think, I want you in xyz church you are absolutely wrong. I believe you are where Christ has put you, and it is not my place to change where you are. For me, you can come and go as you please, Christ is the issue.

There is nothing hidden in me. I believe in Jesus Christ and each day I try to follow His will. I attend a Pentacostal church, but I dont speak in tongues and I do not claim that everyone should be in this or that denominational church. You need to clear your mind of this aspect so our dialogue can be freed up from this stumbling block.
May Christ mature in your heart
walk in love
edwinG

 

[TTM]

edwinG:

The crux of the issue is here. There is something wrong with going to the saints. It diminishes God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It shifts your focus.

Yes, I see that you’re very convinced about that.

No, I do not agree.

Jesus wants to involve human beings in the process of salvation, and he wants us to love one another within the spiritual family.

By pondering on the lives of the saints, one can gain insight and inspiration on how to be more Christ-like. They do not “shift your focus”, apart from magnifying God with their lives.

It also teaches us humility, in recognizing their holiness and asking for their intercession.

Tell me what is wrong with not going to the saints.

Well, for one, you’d be rejecting God’s grace in saying “I don’t need you”:

1 Cor 12:21-23
“The eye cannot say to the hand, ÒI don’t need you!Ó And the head cannot say to the feet, ÒI don’t need you!Ó On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor.”

The prayers of the Saints, and in particular those of Mary’s, are very powerful. It’s silly not to take advantage of these graces God gave us.

Why cant you limit your prayers to God. Jesus gave us the model, Our Father in heaven.

As many have already said, you yourself would probably not “limit your prayers to God”, in that you would ask others to pray for you. It’s the same thing - “prayer” means to “ask”. It’s like saying, “I pray thee, pray to the Lord for me”.

As we saw in the previous thread, St. Paul makes himself out to be an example. God reveals his glory through varoius holy men and women throughout the ages. Yes, of course God is our ultimate model. That’s a given. However, examples are also found in various Saints for our benefit, that we may know more and more how to be holy.

God bless,
TTM

 

[edwinG]

Exporter:

My Dear EdwinG,

I have provided an essay discussing 'The Bible-Only Theory" or “Sola Scriptura”.
geocities.com/militantis/solascriptura.html

Why did I do this? It is given to you so you may get a grip on one tenent of Protestism that is easy to understand. I can see that you are wanting to blast Catholicism into oblivion. I suggest that you defend your belief of “Bible Only” or Sola Scriptura. You most certainly have thought of it, haven’t you?

Hi Exporter,
Thank you for the essay. I have not read it yet, time permitting I will.
You have to remember that I am not into “names” I dont know the limits of Protestism. Are protestents all who are not catholic, barring the real “weird” fringes. My trouble is that I dont have a clue what other churches teach as I dont hop around. They are unknown. Sola Scriptura is not known to me either, but if it is only believing in the bible, then I am not for it, as the bible is the rock on which we build. Above and beyond this is the Holy Spirit. Maybe it is because you have not experienced His leading on a very very regular basis, you dont understand what I am talking about. If you did, you would not keep resisting.Instead you would embrace it wholeheartedly. The reason I am here is because I can read your words, and though I have no doubt you are in Christ, I believe you are missing out on the joy and peace of Christ which comes from the security of following the lead of the Holy Spirit.
I ache for you, hoping that He will come alive in you and then your life will be exalted. Living as a Christian is to be favoured above all others in this world and this is kingly. Of course, this is not claiming we will be lavished with things which will destroy our faith. Our needs are met with an abundance.
So , I am not sola anything, I am Holy Scripture, and following the lead of the Holy Spirit, and each victory which Christ gives to me builds faith. I want to add to your life in Christ so you to can obtain the joy I have in Him.
Where does Christ condemn what I preach?
If you show me I am wrong in this, I will thank you from the bottom of my heart.
May Christ mature in your heart
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

Des:

You must have a magical crystal ball to actually see your future and be so assured of your salvation.

Yes I am assured of my salvation. It is not a magic ball, but Christ who told me. My life is witness to His strength in me.

Prayers are offered to God through the intercession of holy people, the blesseds and the saints. We don’t have to ask any of the Saint to pray for us to be saved, however it would seem foolish not to

What would happen to you if you did not offer prayers to the saints? Ask yourself this question. If the answer is that you would not experience the fullness of Christ then you are saying that without them Christ is reduced. You are saying that Christ is increased with the prayers offered to saints who can help you. Please meditate on this. Remember, the truth can stand any scrutiny and desires scrutiny. Truth has no fear. So dont think you are being anti- Christ when you honestly search for the truth. Dig into it now while you have life on earth.

since even the very Apostles recommended praying for one another.

I agree, but I see a difference between those working in Christ on earth and those resting in paradise.

We trust in Him to lead the Church into All Truth untill the end of time.

Amen.

As for the rest of what you say, it just shows your ignorance of Catholicism and your not wanting to learn but to preach us your heresy, especially with such a high post count as yours.

I obviously am ignorant of most aspects of Catholicism, but I am commenting on those issues which I see discussed here in these forums.
May Christ mature in your heart
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Church Militant:

This would mean that one ceases from the struggles of the world, but why would one cease from serving God just because one’s soul enters heaven? Being in the presence of God would be rest enough for anyone and since we will run and not get weary and walk and not faint I would suggest that God in His loving mercy has plenty for us to do once we “enter into his rest.”

Hi Church Militant,
I feel that those who have died in Christ will rest until Christ comes again. After judgment our work will be apportioned. Do you think Christ will give us work before judging us. I feel there are positions in His kingdom which have various status levels as Moses commanded when he built a system of solving problems as recommended by his father in law. I dont understand how Abraham, Moses and Elijah, came to the position they hold, or even where they are, but those who die in Christ during tribulation will be exalted first.

You wanna talk about Hebrews…what is a great cloud of witnesses? It is a cloud of all the faithful departed. Heaven is not a spectator sport…you act like the angels just sit there on their hands…Obviously God is all powerful (All everything) but then just why did He create angels and why does He send them to do things for Him when he clearly has no need of any lesser beings help.

What can I say, you have me laughing. Angels are messangers of God. They are not saints who have passed from earth. Angels will be judged by the saints.
What is God doing, pouring out His love.
Christ mature in your heart
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[TTM]

edwinG:

Yes, I am trying to win you over to Faith in Him alone.

Everything comes from God alone. All is within his Grace.

I dont believe any denomination has exclusive territory. His Church is Christ’s body, not a denominationaly church.

Strictly speaking, the Catholic Church is not a “denominational” Church. It is the Church that Jesus himself set up on Peter the Rock, who, like Eliakim, takes the role of a Prime Minister over the Kingdom. It is through this Church that Christ keeps his flock from error.

Of course, the denominational Churches are, to an extent, a part of the Body of Christ. However, the visible unity has never been complete since the Reformation, and so there is a wound in the Body because of this separation. As stated previously, there can be no unity without authority, and vice versa.

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

edwinG:

What would happen to you if you did not offer prayers to the saints? Ask yourself this question. If the answer is that you would not experience the fullness of Christ then you are saying that without them Christ is reduced.

What does it mean when we say to do things “for the greater glory of God”? It is not possible to increase God’s glory, since it is perfect. No, it means to communicate that perfect glory of God to the imperfect human beings.

Similarly, the Saints who live their lives and offer themselves up “for the greater glory of God” communicates to us the perfect glory of God to us.

You are saying that Christ is increased with the prayers offered to saints who can help you

If I’m not mistaken, you mention two different aspects here:

1. Greater glory of God through Christ - if the prayers include the veneration (ie. honoring) of Saints, it would indeed communicate to us the glory of God in the way God worked in the lives of the Saints. Again, not about “increasing God’s glory” in the sense that he lacks it without the Saints.
2. Saintly intercession - As has been mentioned before, prayers of the righteous are effective. Those who died in Christ are alive in Him, and share in Christ’s role of Priestly intercession through belonging to His Body and thus belonging to the “Royal Priesthood”. Those in the Body of Christ still share a bond in Christ (ie. not separated due to death) and so through their witnessing of the events on Earth (great cloud of witnesses), the Saints are able to help us through their powerful intercession (for nothing unclean shall enter Heaven, and prayers of the righteous are powerful).

God bless,
TTM

 

[TTM]

I obviously am ignorant of most aspects of Catholicism, but I am commenting on those issues which I see discussed here in these forums.

May I suggest that you do some basic reading first? If you truly seek the Truth, study arguments from both sides.

I recommend starting with the CA tract, Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth. You may come to understand why we Catholics insist on the authority of the Church - rejecting the Church means rejecting the ones God sent fourth, which means rejecting the One who sent them.

God bless,
TTM

 

[Psalm45_9]

I was involved in a thread started by EdwinG on this same topic back in October, then YAQUBOS got involved and it started to get ugly. I have noticed that EdwinG has a real issue over the intercession of Saints, given all of the threads he has started relating to the subject, everyone, you’re in my prayers!

 

[Benadam]

edwinG:
Hi Church Militant,
I feel that those who have died in Christ will rest until Christ comes again.

when I read your words they construct reality as you see it not as you say you believe it is. At least I think you would say God is outside of time, therefore those who die in Christ are as well. What that means isn’t as much about the experience of time, in relation to us on earth, as much as being subject to life as it dictates. So, even if our state of life is more or less bound up in time, in Christ we can live and experience a reality that isn’t. If this is so for us here on earth, how much more so for those nearer to Christ.

After judgment our work will be apportioned. Do you think Christ will give us work before judging us.,

We experience judgement when we are no longer subject to change. This reality plays out even here on earth when someone dies. We don’t live in a creation that doesn’t make visible God’s mysteries that’s why Jesus could say " you teach what you don’t know, we teach what we have seen"

but those who die in Christ during tribulation will be exalted first.

That is true, as it is in the order of time, those who die in Christ during that great suffering will become the Church Suffering making visible purgatory on earth. They will be the first in time to make visible the exalted state of Glory recieved if one dies in Christ.

edwinG

 

[TTM]

I recommend starting with the CA tract, Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth.

Following on from this, I recommend reading the tracts from Mary & Saints section of the Catholic Answers library. Pick’n’choose from 12 or so tracts on the page. Some of these include commentary from the early Church Fathers, and all of them are bound to give Scriptural support, and clarify what we do and what we do not do.

God bless,
TTM

 

[Vincent]

edwinG:

Hi Vincent,
The crux of the issue is here. There is something wrong with going to the saints. It diminishes God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It shifts your focus.

It diminishes God?

1. *]By the very fact that I ask a saint to pray with me and for me to God I’m confessing that he or she isn’t God.
   
   *]I’m giving glory to God, because it’s by His Grace that a saint can pray with me and for me to God at all.
   
   *]Your argument would make it wrong to ask you to pray with me and for me to God, assuming you’re a Christian and fit the etymological use of the word, “Saint”.
   
   *]If it’s not a diminishment of God to ask you to pray with me and for me to God when you’re on earth, why is it all of a sudden diminishing God when you get to be closer to God in Heaven?
   
   *]You’re suggesting that Paul diminished God by asking his readers to pray for him.

 

[Fiat]

Before I entered the Holy Catholic Church, I too struggled with the idea of asking Saints to intercede for and with me. However, I soon noticed that those Catholics who had particular devotions to certain Saints or who had great love for the Blessed Mother were also the same Catholics whose love for Christ and God greatly impressed me.

I began to recognize that the only reason I thought the communion of saints diminished God and Christ was because my own relationship with God and Christ was weak. As my love for Our Lord grew, especially after having been confirmed and receiving the Blessed Sacrament, the stronger my relationship with Our Lord became and the less threatened I felt by seeking Our Mother’s intercession, or the intercession of dozens of other dear Saints. Now, I can’t imagine my walk with Christ without the Saints alongside me.

St. Josemaria, pray for us.

Fiat

 

[Church_Militant]

There is something wrong with going to the saints. It diminishes God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It shifts your focus.

How so, since it is by God’s own power and the instruction of the NT that we intercede for one another? Besides…how can an obedient servant diminsh his master? There is no worship of anyone but God and every aspect of the saints’ lives points us to the glory of God in the risen Christ. I also suggest that you examine the fruit of this practice which is holier lives and more devotion to God Himself. To qoute Our Lord: "Matthew 22:29 “And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.”

 

[Church_Militant]

Vincent:

It diminishes God?

1. *]By the very fact that I ask a saint to pray with me and for me to God I’m confessing that he or she isn’t God.
   
   *]I’m giving glory to God, because it’s by His Grace that a saint can pray with me and for me to God at all.
   
   *]Your argument would make it wrong to ask you to pray with me and for me to God, assuming you’re a Christian and fit the etymological use of the word, “Saint”.
   
   *]If it’s not a diminishment of God to ask you to pray with me and for me to God when you’re on earth, why is it all of a sudden diminishing God when you get to be closer to God in Heaven?
   
   *]You’re suggesting that Paul diminished God by asking his readers to pray for him.

1. 
   Dead Brill answer!

 

[Church_Militant]

edwinG:
Hi Church Militant,
I feel that those who have died in Christ will rest until Christ comes again. After judgment our work will be apportioned. Do you think Christ will give us work before judging us. I feel there are positions in His kingdom which have various status levels as Moses commanded when he built a system of solving problems as recommended by his father in law. I dont understand how Abraham, Moses and Elijah, came to the position they hold, or even where they are, but those who die in Christ during tribulation will be exalted first.

What can I say, you have me laughing. Angels are messangers of God. They are not saints who have passed from earth. Angels will be judged by the saints.
What is God doing, pouring out His love.
Christ mature in your heart
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

You FEEL? So…?
As for the judgement, Don’t you see two judgements? One after the instant of death and then the final great white throne? If not then just how could Jesus have promised St. Dismas, the good thief on the cross that “this day thou shalt be with me in paradise”. The scriptural implication is pretty clear and makes you way out on a limb…where you started off from anyway so far as I can tell.

Look Edwin ole buddy…are you a missionary over there or something? You sure seem bent on trying to mislead Catholics with all this stuff. What…there’s no hungry, homeless, naked, sick, or imprisoned souls to be busy about Our Fathjer’s business with, so you come attack Catholics with misinformed allegations of teachings you really don’t understand to begin with? When did you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or Surprised By Truth, or even the very tracts on this home page? I submit that you are afraid to really sit down with any of the above mentioned material and give it a simple honest reading. instead you’ll come here and spout stuff that someone TOLD you that Catholics believe or that you read about in someone else’s literature ABOUT Catholicism.

To quote the motto of The Mary Foundation:
“Get the facts. Decide for yourself.”