Praying to Saints

[Toddler]

The reference that we are all “saints” could be applied to both the revelation verses I think because our prayers do rise to God. Revelation also can tend to refer to the future occasionally so this could mean that we will be presenting bowls of golden incence when in heaven.

 

[Toddler]

Romans 8:27 (New International Version)
27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

Or in other words the Spirit intercedes for us

 

[Toddler]

We only ask our heavenly family members, because those in heaven are our families, to add their prayers to ours in making requests of God.

Do you not ask your fellow Christians to add their prayers to yours…that is, to pray for your intentions? We ask our fellow Christians in heaven as well as those on earth, to join their prayers with ours

So is what you are saying is that we are praying WITH them instead of to them?

 

[Trishie]

Yes, that’s right.

I hope your mind is more at rest about this. I can see how it would seem confusing.

God bless you!

Trishie

For instance, I have a family member who is Australia’s first beatified saint. I sure wouldn’t pray to her! She’s a cousin, if distant now, but a fellow human being and cousin. I’d ask her to join me in praying for my family, but would never pray to her! She lived her life helpng others…and I know she was fond of my side of her family!

 

[promethius]

Where in the bible did Jesus pray to the saints?

Mathew 17.

Why would he pray to someone lower then him?

Why would God send an angel to inform Mary and not just appear Himself? Why did God create man, which is lower than Himself, knowing we would sin? Because He loves His creatures and values our contribution to His will being done. Same thing for why Jesus would wash the feet of His disciples or enjoin in communication with two very prominent Saints.

Where does it say they communicate with us from heaven?

COMMUNE, not communicate. Two different matters. However, both are in the bible. Again, in Matthew 17 we see that the saints ARE able to communicate from heaven. In revelations we see that the Saints are in full communion with the body of believers here on earth.

 

[rpp]

So is what you are saying is that we are praying WITH them instead of to them?

This is exactly correct. One of the most famous Catholic prayers is the Hail Mary. Let’s review that prayer.

Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women
And blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

First, if you look at the first three lines, you will notice that they come from Holy Scripture. The first line is the Angel Gabriel’s greeting to Mary. The next two lines were spoken by her cousin Elizabeth when Mary came to visit her during the first three months of her pregnancy, carrying our Lord.

Now notice the last line, when we say this prayer, we are asking her to pray for us, just like asking a friend or fellow Christian.

It has been observed that praying to certain saints for a particular type of need, cancer, lost items, safe travel, is more efficacious. Hence the concept of “patron saint” developed. But we do not worship or make offerings, other than devotions representing respect and admiration, but NEVER EVER worship. You can think of the as akin to sowing great respect for pastor or preacher who is skilled at delivering a particular type of sermon, explaining certain theological concepts or helping to encourage public morality or other things. Look at the public respect Billy Graham has. How many people would like to have Billy Graham praying for them by name?

This is the essence of the concept of “communion of saints”.

 

[fellowChristian]

**Ephesians 3:14-15 **
14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

15 from whom **every family in heaven and on earth **derives its name,

we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Romans 12:5
5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

*we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist. *

**Romans 8:38-39 **
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing,** will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. **

therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death

Mark 9:4
**Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. **

*Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth. *

Matthew 22:32
32’I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? **He is not the God of the dead but of the living." **

Luke 20:38
38"Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; **for all **live to Him."

*God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family. *

Hebrews 12
1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

*the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon),refers to the saints, that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation. *

Luke 15:7
7"I tell you that in the same way,** there will be more joy in heaven **over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

**
Luke 15:10**
10"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

*if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior. *

Romans 1:7
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ.

Matthew 26:53
53"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.

Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.

2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.

2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.

Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.

Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.

Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?

Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians’ earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.

Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.

Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.

SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER
scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[rpp]

Where in the bible did Jesus pray to the saints? Why would he pray to someone lower then him? Where does it say they communicate with us from heaven?

Actually, it would not have been Jesus praying to Elijah and Moses. Rather it would have been Elijah and Moses praying to Jesus.

In addition, because this happened before Christ’s crucifixion, Heaven was not yet open. So exactly where Moses and Elijah were is something I am not able to explain.

 

[fellowChristian]

So basically it’s like asking me to pray for/ with you or me asking you to pray for / with me.
God is the one who answers the prayers.

 

[Holly3278]

where do catholics find it biblical to pray to saints. what keeps placing the saints they pray to into a catagory of idols since they are worshiped or prayed to?

Please check out this link:

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#saints-II

 

[promethius]

Actually, it would not have been Jesus praying to Elijah and Moses. Rather it would have been Elijah and Moses praying to Jesus.

prayer is a communal act when it involves the saints. STOP THINKING OF PRAYER AS RESTRICTED TO WORSHIP ONLY! To pray means, literally, “to ask”

In addition, because this happened before Christ’s crucifixion, Heaven was not yet open. So exactly where Moses and Elijah were is something I am not able to explain.

This line of reasoning only makes sense if you think of God as being temporally bound and finite. No thanks, I have no use for a limited God.

Instead, God is NOT temporally bound. In other words, while we have a temporal event in the crucifixion, that Sacrifice occured once and for all time for the salvation of mankind. In other words, that event sent the ripple of events throughout our existance instantly. Further, let us remember that Elijah was raised into heaven, this is scriptural. In other words, we know for a fact he was in heaven, but able to communicate with Christ on earth.

 

[laverita]

Where in the bible did Jesus pray to the saints? Why would he pray to someone lower then him? Where does it say they communicate with us from heaven?

It doesn’t and the only example of communication between the living and dead was between Saul and Samuel 1 Sam 28

Is there a clear distinction that talking to dead saints is different than talking to dead unsaved people? I have never seen one. But Saul hid his identity when he consulted the medium or witch. Because the law of Moses is clear about seeking mediums or talking with the dead. I chose to side on the side of safety. Some will reference the transfiguration but that is the work of the Father and His Son and I would not presume it a model for speaking to the past saints. Comparing living people by asking if they will pray for or with me is quite different than speaking to people that no longer walk in the flesh or are dead. Just my opinion.

We can hear and see examples of people every where today that claim to communicate with past friends and family is that OK? If not what is the difference.

 

[rpp]

prayer is a communal act when it involves the saints. STOP THINKING OF PRAYER AS RESTRICTED TO WORSHIP ONLY! To pray means, literally, “to ask”

No need to shout. The OP got this I was merely confirming that

This line of reasoning only makes sense if you think of God as being temporally bound and finite. No thanks, I have no use for a limited God.

Instead, God is NOT temporally bound. In other words, while we have a temporal event in the crucifixion, that Sacrifice occured once and for all time for the salvation of mankind. In other words, that event sent the ripple of events throughout our existance instantly. Further, let us remember that Elijah was raised into heaven, this is scriptural. In other words, we know for a fact he was in heaven, but able to communicate with Christ on earth.

While it is true that God is not bound by time, There was a time when Heaven was closed. That is Catholic teaching. Much of what you wrote here is not anything that I have ever read anywhere else. The idea that time sort of “unwound” seems rather novel to me ad has never been described by any theologian that I have ever read. If that indeed were the case, then it does indeed force God to be temporal because He would have had to go back and “undo” when He had done? Would that also impugn His perfection?

While we saw that Elijah (and Enoch) were carried bodily into Heaven, Heaven was still closed at that time. In addition, Moses died and was not carried into Heaven. It is still unclear to me where these two were “residing” at the time of the Transfiguration. One must also remember that during His Earthly life, Christ was indeed subject to temporal limitations.

 

[promethius]

While it is true that God is not bound by time, There was a time when Heaven was closed. That is Catholic teaching. Much of what you wrote here is not anything that I have ever read anywhere else. The idea that time sort of “unwound” seems rather novel to me ad has never been described by any theologian that I have ever read. If that indeed were the case, then it does indeed force God to be temporal because He would have had to go back and “undo” when He had done? Would that also impugn His perfection?

I would urge you, then, to get to a catholic university and enroll in the 400 level philosophy class: philosophy of religion. Dr Dinsmore is a great professor in this field, if you feel like tracking someone down.

Your statement that an action “goes back and undoes” only makes sense from a temporal reference. You forget that if God is unbound by time then He is without any past or future. The entire existance of the universe at all points in our timeframe represent the present if you remove the dimension of time. Perhaps this makes sense to me since I have a degree in physics and part of recent studies has involved interaction, addition, and subtraction of dimensions from a system.

In other words, there was nothing to go back and change, since without time the very idea of “going back” to any sort of “past” is absurd. To wit: From human perspective, Jesus’ sacrifice occurred at one point in time. Souls dying before that time, if they were bound in time, would have been denied entrance into heaven. HOWEVER, once they were in heaven, that would be outside the bounds of time, and therefore they would exist in the same sort of “eternal present” that God does. In other words, their actions were not constrained to "only after the crucifixion (again, the idea of “after” doesn’t make sense without the time dimension)… they could appear at any point and any time, as they did during the transfiguration.

Obviously, something has to be the case that allowed such a thing to happen. I’m not saying i’m right, i’m saying it fits with what is taught in philosophy at catholic universities and also squares with catholic doctrine. Since Moses was there, SOMETHING allowed him to be in heaven and to interact with the earth at that point in our dimension of time.

I think that addresses the rest of your post as well.

One must also remember that during His Earthly life, Christ was indeed subject to temporal limitations.

Two complete natures. Yes, Christ the MAN was bound by time. The God nature, however, would not have been

As noted by many philosophers, the idea that God is bound in time creates a difficult situation that in order to be omniscient God would have to have “foreknowledge” of the future. This indicates fatalism and predestination, hence the recognition that the God nature is not bound by time…

 

[fellowChristian]

Q: How can God be everywhere at the same time?

A: Think of it like this…

Make a timeline on a piece of paper.​

100-600-700-800-900 b.c.-33 a.d.-40-50-100-1300-1900-2009-2020-3000

---

This is us. We are trapped by a certain point in time.

God is the piece of paper. To Him it is always now. He is not trapped by time.

My understanding of C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity

But I didn’t think about heaven as being outside of time. But it makes sense. Because if heaven is being in the presence of God then it must be outside of time with Him. Also the fact that our souls are eternal…means no time limit.

Imagine seeing what you did yesterday ,today, and tomorrow all at the same time?! Wow! That just boggles the mind.

 

[rpp]

I would urge you, then, to get to a catholic university and enroll in the 400 level philosophy class: philosophy of religion. Dr Dinsmore is a great professor in this field, if you feel like tracking someone down.

Your statement that an action “goes back and undoes” only makes sense from a temporal reference. You forget that if God is unbound by time then He is without any past or future. The entire existance of the universe at all points in our timeframe represent the present if you remove the dimension of time. Perhaps this makes sense to me since I have a degree in physics and part of recent studies has involved interaction, addition, and subtraction of dimensions from a system.

In other words, there was nothing to go back and change, since without time the very idea of “going back” to any sort of “past” is absurd. To wit: From human perspective, Jesus’ sacrifice occurred at one point in time. Souls dying before that time, if they were bound in time, would have been denied entrance into heaven. HOWEVER, once they were in heaven, that would be outside the bounds of time, and therefore they would exist in the same sort of “eternal present” that God does. In other words, their actions were not constrained to "only after the crucifixion (again, the idea of “after” doesn’t make sense without the time dimension)… they could appear at any point and any time, as they did during the transfiguration.

Obviously, something has to be the case that allowed such a thing to happen. I’m not saying i’m right, i’m saying it fits with what is taught in philosophy at catholic universities and also squares with catholic doctrine. Since Moses was there, SOMETHING allowed him to be in heaven and to interact with the earth at that point in our dimension of time.

I think that addresses the rest of your post as well.

Two complete natures. Yes, Christ the MAN was bound by time. The God nature, however, would not have been

As noted by many philosophers, the idea that God is bound in time creates a difficult situation that in order to be omniscient God would have to have “foreknowledge” of the future. This indicates fatalism and predestination, hence the recognition that the God nature is not bound by time…

Aside from being utterly incorrect, it is quite rude to presume what I do know and do not know. In addition, what you write about what I have written, in your very condescending and heterodox posts, is actually contradicted by what I wrote. In short, you are ignoring what I wrote in order to spank me and promote teaching that is not Catholic.

Finally, your posts are utterly off topic. If you want to discuss your sci-fi theories, start another thread. This is a thread about praying to saints. Not about the The fact that God is indeed outside of time nor sci-fi theories that Gaod made time run backwards when the Gates of Heaven were finally opened by Christ. An idea that is not supported in Catholic teaching. Stay on topic as forum rules require.

 

[Church_Militant]

This article may help somewhat.
The Intercession & Communion of Saints

 

[promethius]

Aside from being utterly incorrect, it is quite rude to presume what I do know and do not know.

I would actually think that since you’re still writing things like “Gaod[sic] made time run backwards when the Gates of Heave were finally opened by Christ.” that it becomes clear that you AREN’T understanding what I’m getting at.

Time wouldn’t run backwards, because to God there IS NO TIME.

In addition, what you write about what I have written, in your very condescending and heterodox posts, is actually contradicted by what I wrote. In short, you are ignoring what I wrote in order to spank me and promote teaching that is not Catholic.

you’re right. I contradicted what you stated because what you stated only makes sense if God is trapped inside of time with us. Since the church does NOT teach that position, I pointed out that God is outside of time, ergo temporal limitations which YOU have chosen to place on the saints in Matthew 17 do not apply.
What do you have to back up your theory? Nothing but assertion.
What do I have to back up mine? Scripture stating that they were there at that time, education in philosophy of religion by the President of the Board of Catholic Instruction in the US himself, and a degree in physics to back any scientific understanding of multiple world, string, and corresponding theories.

I’d say that the following fits more into the category of condescending:

Finally, your posts are utterly off topic. If you want to discuss your sci-fi theories, start another thread. This is a thread about praying to saints.

actually, this is entirely on topic, since you’ve asserted that the scriptures are wrong and that Moses couldn’t have actually appeared in Matthew 17 because of the fact that “heaven was closed at the time.” Since your assertion is in obvious contention with the reality of what happened, I’m attempting to defend the scriptural basis of prayer to the saints by going into why you’re wrong to assert that scripture is flawed. There is nothing Sci-Fi about it.

I think perhaps watching the video “imagining the tenth dimension” by Dr Rob Bryanton, might help you to understand what is scientifically being stated to you here: youtube.com/watch?v=HvgwR9ERCBo&feature=channel_page

Stay on topic as forum rules require.

then recant your suggestion that scriptures are in error because Moses couldn’t have been there due to the fact that the “Gates of Heaven were closed”

 

[promethius]

Imagine seeing what you did yesterday ,today, and tomorrow all at the same time?! Wow! That just boggles the mind.

and the theologists aren’t alone in that regard. Physicists are continually grappling with the idea of how you can have a closed system universe which displays four distinct physical dimensions (others as well) can exist “surrounded by” an existance which is composed of no dimensions whatsoever…

I put “surrounded by” in quotations as well, because without length, width, height, and time, there’s not really such a thing as “surrounding” anything.

Of course, the field of physics admits that this is all speculative. We don’t know that the place outside our finite universe is composed of NO dimensions, merely that it’s physical laws are different than ours. The point of interaction between those regions is what interests us…

 

[rpp]

then recant your suggestion that scriptures are in error because Moses couldn’t have been there due to the fact that the “Gates of Heaven were closed”

This is a false statement and calumnious statement. I never said or implied anything of the kind. It is impossible for any well-meaning person to draw this conclusion from the posts he is referring to.

You owe me an apology for the lies you have stated about my posts.