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cs80918
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Okay good so that means you contradicted yourself.
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cs80918
Guest
Maccabees I do not agree because it is not in my Bible.
By the way this is such a wonderful section of the bible that follows: but still these people speaking in these verses are not praying to God because a person on earth has asked them to.
Luke 16: 19-31: “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out,
Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”
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cs80918
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Then why pray/ask a saint then? What is even the point of it?
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cs80918
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Yeah I didn’t read that page, your probably right. I was tired and just pasted it.
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cs80918
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I am the righteousness of God in Christ. I am a friend of God. I am not Jesus. I am not an apostle. I do not compare to either. Are you serious? Come on man. Do you think Jesus or the apostles, would misspell so many words and use such bad grammar as me?
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cs80918
Guest
Most of the points on here have had some form of logic, but this does not qualify as logical.
If I say Jesus was baptised… and I also say I was baptisted does that infer that I am saying I am Jesus? of course not.
If a Catholic says “I was born in Bethlehem” Just because they were born in Bethlehem does that mean they are implying they are Jesus? of course not
That is like saying I am a man. The some says… Are you implying that you are Jesus… because you know he was a man too.
That is like saying I know how to program a computer… oh my gosh sir, are you implying that you are Bill Gates? come on now get with it
If I say Jesus was baptised… and I also say I was baptisted does that infer that I am saying I am Jesus? of course not.
If a Catholic says “I was born in Bethlehem” Just because they were born in Bethlehem does that mean they are implying they are Jesus? of course not
That is like saying I am a man. The some says… Are you implying that you are Jesus… because you know he was a man too.
That is like saying I know how to program a computer… oh my gosh sir, are you implying that you are Bill Gates? come on now get with it
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cs80918
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Probably right. I recognize you and have an understanding of why you make the comments you do. Good for you, I think.
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cs80918
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Again not apart of the protestant bible
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cs80918
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Yes it is and you can even do the research of course you will have to seek non-catholic resources to do this. I believe the Catholic church called the other groups heretics.
There is also a history of individual Christian denominations suffering persecution at the hands of Catholics under the charge of heresy, particularly during the 16th century Protestant Reformation.
Kind of hard to have a huge following when you are being called a heretic and persecuted by Catholics.
The first known usage of the term in a civil legal context was in 380 AD by the “Edict of Thessalonica” of Theodosius I. Prior to the issuance of this edict, the Church had no state sponsored support for any particular legal mechanism to counter what it perceived as ‘heresy’. By this edict, in some senses, the line between the Christian Church and the Roman State was blurred. One of the outcomes of this blurring of Church and State was a sharing of State powers of legal enforcement between Church and State authorities. At its most extreme reach, this new Church authority of legal enforcement gave Church leaders the power to pronounce the death sentence upon those whom they might perceive to be ‘heretics’.
Within 5 years of the official ‘criminalization’ of heresy by the emperor, the first Christian heretic, Priscillian was executed in 385 by Roman officials
There is also a history of individual Christian denominations suffering persecution at the hands of Catholics under the charge of heresy, particularly during the 16th century Protestant Reformation.
Kind of hard to have a huge following when you are being called a heretic and persecuted by Catholics.
The first known usage of the term in a civil legal context was in 380 AD by the “Edict of Thessalonica” of Theodosius I. Prior to the issuance of this edict, the Church had no state sponsored support for any particular legal mechanism to counter what it perceived as ‘heresy’. By this edict, in some senses, the line between the Christian Church and the Roman State was blurred. One of the outcomes of this blurring of Church and State was a sharing of State powers of legal enforcement between Church and State authorities. At its most extreme reach, this new Church authority of legal enforcement gave Church leaders the power to pronounce the death sentence upon those whom they might perceive to be ‘heretics’.
Within 5 years of the official ‘criminalization’ of heresy by the emperor, the first Christian heretic, Priscillian was executed in 385 by Roman officials
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TheNavigator
Guest
Hi cs80918
Ive been reading your posts on here and I dont think anyone here can answer your questions in a succinct way.
I can understand your points, I also had the same notions about the Church myself when I was searching for truth.
I would like to recommend this book to you:
amazon.com/Born-Fundamentalist-Again-Catholic/dp/089870569X
Its an excellent book which will answer many of your questions about Catholics, the Catholic faith and the Church from a former ana-baptist who came to realise the truth
Happy reading!
Ive been reading your posts on here and I dont think anyone here can answer your questions in a succinct way.
I can understand your points, I also had the same notions about the Church myself when I was searching for truth.
I would like to recommend this book to you:
amazon.com/Born-Fundamentalist-Again-Catholic/dp/089870569X
Its an excellent book which will answer many of your questions about Catholics, the Catholic faith and the Church from a former ana-baptist who came to realise the truth
Happy reading!
T
TheNavigator
Guest
And vice versa
Henry VIII also hung many Catholics and Oliver Cromwell persecuted the Irish for being Catholic resulting in 10’s of thousnads of deaths
Always look at research OBJECTIVELY and you will find the truth
Regards
P
paramedicgirl
Guest
I like that you capitalized Sacred Tradition.
I fail to see where tradition contradicts the Bible, when upholding tradition is explicitly mentioned in the Bible in multiple places.Paul upholds tradtion when he says this: 1 Cor 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and **keep my ordinances **as I have delivered them to you.
and again here: 12 Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and** hold the tradition**s which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
and here: 2 Thes 3:6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not **according to the tradition **which they have received of us.
John 21:25 But there are also **many other things **which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
2 Tim 1:13 Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me in faith, and in the love which is in Christ Jesus
Clearly, there are traditions which God upholds as sacred and pleasing to Him, that arise from the teaching of Christ and His Church. What the bible condemns is the upholding of the traditions of men that are frivolous and unprofitable to the soul, that do not elevate one to true piety, but rather spring from the authority of man without regard to the law of God.
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CatholicGuy22
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I saw an early post where you said to pray for you so you can see the truth and i will. But you cant be so hard headed and assume your way is the only way when other people are doing the exact same thing you are doing and end up converting. You must trust God and the people he left in charge. THe Church is made up of men who sin but have never taught false teaching since our existence. We have stood the test of time without falling. Massive empires and countries have fallen but the Holy Roman Catholic Church has stayed. What other Institution has survived this long? None! IT is a truly a miracle of God. I cant make you be CAtholic but i know God knows when your hour will come and so you can truly be united with him. The Catholic CHurch and I pray for you every day so you can come home!
God bless
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JustaServant
Guest
God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
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cs80918
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Yes the catholic church is comparable to the Pharisees… Look up traditions of men in the bible and what Jesus says about that… Look up forbidding to marry in the bible.
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JustaServant
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cs80918
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If there was a point to me finding more references, I could fill this place with an extremely large amount of sources. It still would not matter you will not believe.
You are the type of people spoken of the bible that says if he the dead came back to speak to you personally, you would still not believe.
You are the type of people spoken of the bible that says if he the dead came back to speak to you personally, you would still not believe.
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JustaServant
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cs80918
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There is no use you still will not believe.I like that you capitalized Sacred Tradition.
Paul upholds tradtion when he says this: 1 Cor 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and **keep my ordinances **as I have delivered them to you.
and again here: 12 Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and** hold the tradition**s which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
and here: 2 Thes 3:6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not **according to the tradition **which they have received of us.
John 21:25 But there are also **many other things **which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
2 Tim 1:13 Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me in faith, and in the love which is in Christ Jesus
Clearly, there are traditions which God upholds as sacred and pleasing to Him, that arise from the teaching of Christ and His Church. What the bible condemns is the upholding of the traditions of men that are frivolous and unprofitable to the soul, that do not elevate one to true piety, but rather spring from the authority of man without regard to the law of God.
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cs80918
Guest
When the Pharisees questioned the blind man about Jesus healing him. They tried to use all kinds of religious arguments.
But all he said at the end is… All I know is I was blind, but now I see.
But all he said at the end is… All I know is I was blind, but now I see.
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