Praying to saints.

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It says golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of saints. It means that the prayers are going into God some how, just like when you burn incense on earth. The elders are worshiping God, verse 5:9 And they sang a new son, saying:

The only communcations I see going on is them praising God.
But those Elders, who are dead, are getting in the way of those prayers. Those prayers are not going directly to Jesus. Lets say the Elders DON’T say anything. They are still carrying those prayers. THEY received them, THEY carry them. How did they get them?

How did the Elders get those prayers? Someone had to give them those prayers, that’s how. One of the saints gave the Elders the prayers. It’s the only way it makes sense when you think about it.

Why else is there a middle-man, especially considering that apparently we are to pray directly to Jesus? If we prayed directly to Jesus the Elders would not have to carry those bowls.

Don’t be a slave to the literal letter of the law. Or else someone will point out to you that no where in Scripture does it say Scripture alone is the Sole Rule of Faith.
 
You say that you are not praying to saints in heaven. You say that you are ASKING SAINTS in heaven to pray for you. Asking and praying. It still means you are communicating with someone who is dead. In the sense that if a saint died today, that saint would be dead in body.
But not dead in spirit, which means they are not dead. You mean to tell me those in heaven are dead and cease to be a Christian? You don’t cease to be a Christian upon your earthly death, my friend.

We’re sending a letter to the Elder/Saint, the Elder/Saint puts the letter inside of that bowl. The bowl gets carried to Christ.

It’s right there in Revelations 5, you know.
 
I still think the bottom line here is that your whole premise assumes that if it’s not directly stated in Scripture, then it is therfore not worthy of belief.

Catholics simply don’t believe this, at all. We believe that there is divine revelation outside of Scripture called Sacred tradition, which started out as oral tradition but was later written down. Prayer to the Saints is implied in the Bible and the practice is confirmed through Sacred Tradition.

The debate here is not truly about prayer to the Saints being found in the Bible, because even if it’s not directly stated in the Bible Catholics don’t see that as a reason that it’s wrong. The debate is really about whether or not Sacred Tradition should be accepted as Divinely Inspired.
 
Absolutely. What Catholic said only the Bible was divinely inspired?

BTW, lowercase c catholic merely means universal and refers to all Christians of all denominations. Those here on this website are uppercase C Catholic, meaning they are in union with the Bishop of Rome. Just for future reference.
…And furthermore, unlike the Mormons, whom you mentioned, the Church has no inspired Scripture but the Bible. Sacred Tradition was originally oral tradition that the Church wrote down. But even books with accurate teachings on Sacred Tradition may be accurate, but not divinely inspired. Mormons claim the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired.

“The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.”

-St. Augustine

I just cut and pasted what you wrote earlier… “the Church has no inspired Scripture but the bible” it doesn’t matter to me, your probably now going to say that Scripture only means BIble writings
 
If a viewpoint can not be defended only with the Bible than that view is a false doctrine.
Hhmmm tell me where in the bible does it say the world is round? Last time I checked it’s no where to be found, yet through science we know this is fact. Tell me where in the bible does it say that the book called the bible is the soul authority? Or in this cal Sola Scriptura.
Maybe it should be in the Apologetics forum.

My bible is different than the catholic bible. Catholics did not give me my Bible God did. Do not take the glory away from God.
Yes your bible is different because in the 16th century protestants removed books from the Bible. Let’s see what the Bible has to say about that?
I warn everyone who hears the prophetic works in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. Rev 22:18-19

Here is some history fo ya:). During the time of Jesus, the Apostles, and the real early Church fathers, there was no book called the Bible. Most of the teachings of the Apostles were thought and spread by orally. Letters and Epistles where some of the only writings of the Apostles. Most of the writings were we get the bible from where from their followers (Church fathers). The Canons in the first 300 years were all spread out throughout the land, and there were MANY of them, some false and others authentic. It’s not until the council of Rome (382) under Pope Damasus 1st produces Damasian list with 46 OT and 27 NT books.
Year 383 Pope Damasus commissions Jerome to produce the Latin Vulgate Bible (Latin bible). In 393 The Synod of Hippo approves Damasian List which totals 73 books. 397 Council of Carthage reaffirms Synod of Hippo/Damasian List. In 405 Jerome completes the Latin Vulgate Bible, and 419 The books of the Bible are settled at the Council of Carthage. Canon of sacred Scripture is CLOSEd, 46 OT and 27 NT; This is considered official scripture forever Now what century did you bible appear? Sometime in the 16th century during the Protestant Reformation?
 
I still think the bottom line here is that your whole premise assumes that if it’s not directly stated in Scripture, then it is therfore not worthy of belief.

Catholics simply don’t believe this, at all. We believe that there is divine revelation outside of Scripture called Sacred tradition, which started out as oral tradition but was later written down. Prayer to the Saints is implied in the Bible and the practice is confirmed through Sacred Tradition.

The debate here is not truly about prayer to the Saints being found in the Bible, because even if it’s not directly stated in the Bible Catholics don’t see that as a reason that it’s wrong. The debate is really about whether or not Sacred Tradition should be accepted as Divinely Inspired.
Yes. And far from the Bible saying that the revelations of Scripture were complete, it explicitly said that Christ had not yet taught everything and that the Holy Spirit would be sent in the future to continue the teachings.
 
Okay, what’s your point? You have not yet proven that anything Catholics believe is contrary to the Bible. Catholics would agree with you.
I have proven that the bible does not tell us to ask saints in heaven to pray for us.

The bible teaches us how to pray, you know that. It never says to ask saints in heaven to pray for us.

If you ask saints to pray for you, that means you are communicating to them. That means you are praying to them, what other form of commucation would it be?

Asking and praying, come on now stop labeling to make your non existant point.
 
I just cut and pasted what you wrote earlier… “the Church has no inspired Scripture but the bible” it doesn’t matter to me, your probably now going to say that Scripture only means BIble writings
Um…yeah, Scripture means the Bible. That’s always what it meant. I figured I was using a universally accepted term for the Bible there.
 
I have proven that the bible does not tell us to ask saints in heaven to pray for us.

The bible teaches us how to pray, you know that. It never says to ask saints in heaven to pray for us.

If you ask saints to pray for you, that means you are communicating to them. That means you are praying to them, what other form of commucation would it be?

Asking and praying, come on now stop labeling to make your non existant point.
So? My point is perfectly valid. The Bible never once says we CAN’T ask the Saints to pray for us, and it implies that prayer to the Saints is valid, a practice confirmed by Sacred Tradition.
 
Now going back to your original queation

First when a person dies a “saint” if you will, they do not really die, but in fact have more life than us, because God is the God of life not death.
The “Dead” in Christ are Not Dead, but ALIVE!

Matthew 22: 31-32: And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Hebrews 12:1:Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us

(**NOTE - Witnesses have to be alive in order to witness for us, to our Judge, Jesus Christ)

Death is Not a Barrier that Separates us From Our Loved Ones in Christ
Romans 8:38-39 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
I have proven that the bible does not tell us to ask saints in heaven to pray for us.

The bible teaches us how to pray, you know that. It never says to ask saints in heaven to pray for us.

If you ask saints to pray for you, that means you are communicating to them. That means you are praying to them, what other form of commucation would it be?

Asking and praying, come on now stop labeling to make your non existant point.
I’m going to bed now, and I will rest easy knowing that;
  1. You have not yet refuted what I said about the Trinity. The Trinity concept is in the Bible, the word itself isn’t. Just like the CONCEPT of praying to Saints/Elders is in the Bible, but the word itself isn’t. Using your logic, you should not believe in the Trinity.
  2. Those Elders. You have yet to answer;
But those Elders, who are dead, are getting in the way of those prayers. Those prayers are not going directly to Jesus. Lets say the Elders DON’T say anything. They are still carrying those prayers. THEY received them, THEY carry them. How did they get them?

*How did the Elders get those prayers? Someone had to give them those prayers, that’s how. One of the saints gave the Elders the prayers. It’s the only way it makes sense when you think about it.

Why else is there a middle-man, especially considering that apparently we are to pray directly to Jesus? If we prayed directly to Jesus the Elders would not have to carry those bowls.

Don’t be a slave to the literal letter of the law. Or else someone will point out to you that no where in Scripture does it say Scripture alone is the Sole Rule of Faith. *

I hope to see your answer later.

G’night all!
 
Okay, and what about things that are not contrary to the Bible, but that supplement the Bible?

Make sure you keep in mind John 14:26.
The holy spirit teaches us nothing contrary to the word of God.

There are many many many writings, that are not contrary to the Bible and those are great. However; the Catholic traditions,doctrines that are contrary are unacceptable.
 
The Dead Interceding for Us Here on Earth
2 Maccabees 15: 11-16: He armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God." Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

**(NOTE - Here the dead Onias and the dead Jeremiah appear on earth, and it is revealed that Onias and Jeremiah intercede and pray for their people on earth)

Luke 16: 19-31: “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. **The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue;** for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, **Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.**' But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

Revelation 6: 9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar **the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God **and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

(**NOTE – Here the dead saints in heaven are asking God to stop the slaughter of us believers here on earth by taking out the enemy’s footsoldiers).
 
The holy spirit teaches us nothing contrary to the word of God.

There are many many many writings, that are not contrary to the Bible and those are great. However; the Catholic traditions,doctrines that are contrary are unacceptable.
Okay, I agree. None of the Catholic traditions are contrary to the Bible.
 
Re: Inspired Scripture.

I still attest that the only Scripture written by inspired writers is the Bible. Sacred Tradition started out as oral tradition and was later written down, but written down Sacred Tradition is not the same as divinely inspired writing.
 
The holy spirit teaches us nothing contrary to the word of God.

There are many many many writings, that are not contrary to the Bible and those are great. However; the Catholic traditions,doctrines that are contrary are unacceptable.
Um, no Catholic doctrine is contrary to the Bible. The webpage you posted about the Witch of Endor has nothing to do with anything; prayer to the saints is not conjuring ghosts.
 
And my favorite!
The Dead Present Our Prayers from Earth to God in the Form of Incense

Revelation 5:8: And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Hebrews 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses

I hope that we have brought the Truth of the One True Faith. We hope that you joing the Body of Christ and experince the Joy of know you in communion with the Bride of Christ.
 
And my favorite!
The Dead Present Our Prayers from Earth to God in the Form of Incense

Revelation 5:8: And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
I’ve already spent several posts covering that. Thanks for showing up though 🙂
 
God empowered Michael to fight on His behalf. We can agree on this because it is clearly in Scripture. This leads us into two questions;
  • Why would God do that, He can do it Himself, yes?
  • If this guy is running around killing demons because God made it Michael’s job, why not ask him for help? He’s helping God already anyway (this is clear in Scripture as well).
If Mike can help God, he can help us. That simple.

And please answer my question about why those Elders are doing by the Throne in the first place while holding onto our prayers. Are those prayers not supposed to go directly to Jesus? Explain this.
Okay they are holding bowls full of prayers that are like incense, means they are in some way burning. Kind of like in the old testament when God said he smelled the sweet fragrance from animal sacrifices.

I don’t know what your name is but lets say your name is Bob. So Bob you are holding a bowl of incense. Does that mean that your mouth is moving and you are praying? No, it means you are holding a bowl an smoke is coming out of it.

I guess i SHOULD of asked, can you pray directly to God.
 
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