Praying to saints

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Even Some Jews Today are praying/asking the deceased dzaddik to pray on their behalf.
Google> ‘‘Is it ok to ask a deceased dzaddik to pray on my behalf’’

I don’t see in scripture that the Apostles Prayed to OT saints or NT saints that have passed on. Nor did they teach this in scripture. If they also did not teach this Orally. How Can this be a Apostolic teaching ?
It might be a bit of a cop-out, but we don’t find the words “Incarnation”, “Trinity”, or even “Godhead” in the Scriptures. That does not mean we reject them out of hand.

Invocation of departed Christians is a matter of extrapolation from the texts, not absolute commandment. If Heaven rejoices when a sinner repents; so, Heaven is aware of events on Earth; St. Paul asked Christians to pray for him, and thus we ask Christians everywhere to pray for us - including those who know what’s going on in Earth, as the Lord said in Luke 15. 🙂

Catholics don’t believe in the Regulative Principle, by the way, but the Normative Principle.
 
It might be a bit of a cop-out, but we don’t find the words “Incarnation”, “Trinity”, or even “Godhead” in the Scriptures. That does not mean we reject them out of hand.

Invocation of departed Christians is a matter of extrapolation from the texts, not absolute commandment. If Heaven rejoices when a sinner repents; so, Heaven is aware of events on Earth; St. Paul asked Christians to pray for him, and thus we ask Christians everywhere to pray for us - including those who know what’s going on in Earth, as the Lord said in Luke 15. 🙂

Catholics don’t believe in the Regulative Principle, by the way, but the Normative Principle.
Many Jews today do not ask the departed to Pray on their behalf. It was not part of their early tradition. Only Some Jews today do ask the departed to pray on their behalf because of Later tradition around 200 CE. From extrapolation from their texts.
I can see in one sense that Perhaps it is not wrong at all to ask the saints in heaven to pray on our behalf. I would have thought they would be doing that regardless like Jesus does
What i am concerned about is when some monk asks a certain saint in heaven to come to him and talk to him and the saint comes and meets him and talks to him.
 
If they did not teach this orally, do you think their disciples, the Church Fathers, made that up?
Slightly later Church fathers that was not around when the Apostles were around have tended to disagree with each other over things. Can you give me a direct reference from the Apostles disciples. The disciples while the Apostle were alive ?
 
Many Jews today do not ask the departed to Pray on their behalf. It was not part of their early tradition. Only Some Jews today do ask the departed to pray on their behalf because of Later tradition around 200 CE. From extrapolation from their texts.
I can see in one sense that Perhaps it is not wrong at all to ask the saints in heaven to pray on our behalf. I would have thought they would be doing that regardless like Jesus does
What i am concerned about is when some monk asks a certain saint in heaven to come to him and talk to him and the saint comes and meets him and talks to him.
Thankfully no one asks for that in real life… just in myths, legends, and pious stories. I certainly don’t need one of the saints to come teach me. God will suffice, in His holy Church. The saints will pray… because they love us. That is all. 🙂

The Jews couldn’t have asked the departed to pray because the bonds of death were not yet broken. We can only do this because of Christ. It’s no wonder we don’t find it in the Old Testament - it wasn’t possible, the Lord hadn’t yet destroyed death.
 
Praying to the Saints in Heaven sounds nice, however, prayers to the dead are pagan custom and talking to the dead is witchcraft.

May people in the last 2000 years have been imprisoned, tortured, and executed for communing with the dead.

Praying to the dead treats the spirit of the target person as a deity.
Talking to the dead is something Wicca people try to accomplish. Neither is Christian.
The 4th century church probably used this practice to attract the Pagans into the faith.

King Saul tried to conjure up Samuel’s Spirit after the prophet had died and Samuel was very displease. 1Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

We are to pray for each other, however, Saints in Heaven who behold God’s face don’t likely pray to each other and they don’t need us to pray for them.

Also, the title “Queen of Heaven” is also a pagan term for a mother goddess. See Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19, 25. Mary cannot answer prayers because she is one of us a flawed human being. She is to be admired for her faith and self sacrifice. Only God answers Prayers. The Heavenly Saints and angels are aware of us by the grace of God who hears and answers prayers. We do not need to go around him.

Let us all direct our prayers to the Father through his Son and our legitimate mediator.
 
Hi everyone,

So I’m sure this question has been asked a whole lot of times on this forum. If it has, you can refer me to a link where it’s been answered and I would be happy with that. But, I was wondering why do Catholics pray to saints, or to Mary, etc.? Why can’t you just pray to Christ directly? Like I’ve heard the idea that because St. Anthony or Mary is actually closer to God than we are, then he is more likely to listen to them than us. But why do you have to be in Heaven to be “closer to God”, why can’t you be close to him right now by reading the Bible as God’s Word, and giving to God whatever is on our heart? I’ve always heard the most direct way to a point is a straight line, so I would think it would be true even with this?

Sincerely,
Andrew
If I asked a friend of mine to pray for me yet they were living in sin, just how effective would that prayer be? When I ask a saint to pray for me, I know it will be a strong prayer for they are in perfect union with God.

If I pray by myself, that is one prayer offered to God. If I ask a friend of mine to pray for me, then I have two people praying for me, and so forth. Isn’t that better to have more people who God respects praying for me? Isn’t it better to have more going to Jesus directly?

Now If I ask someone to pray for me, then I am hoping that they are close in union with God.
Who could be more close in union with God then the very mother of God, Mary?

And supposing I am not in the state of grace, now especially it would do me well to ask those in heaven who are in grace to pray for me.

We belong to a family.

Just some thoughts.​

“When evening comes and our day of toil is over, give us rest O Lord, in the joy of many friends.” (hymn)
 
Hi everyone,

So I’m sure this question has been asked a whole lot of times on this forum. If it has, you can refer me to a link where it’s been answered and I would be happy with that. But, I was wondering why do Catholics pray to saints, or to Mary, etc.? Why can’t you just pray to Christ directly? Like I’ve heard the idea that because St. Anthony or Mary is actually closer to God than we are, then he is more likely to listen to them than us. But why do you have to be in Heaven to be “closer to God”, why can’t you be close to him right now by reading the Bible as God’s Word, and giving to God whatever is on our heart? I’ve always heard the most direct way to a point is a straight line, so I would think it would be true even with this?

Sincerely,
Andrew
I attended Easter Vigil two weeks ago. During the Vigil, during the baptism of the RCIA candidates, we sang the Litany of the Saints.

It hit me then how beautiful this practice is in the Catholic Church, and how much Protestants are missing by cutting out this worthy practice.

We have huge support in Heaven. I believe fully that the saints know what we are doing, and pray for us. For instance, I returned to the Church only one week before the feast day of my patron saint, St. Thomas Aquinas. Coincidence? I don’t believe so.

We have such a huge support in the saints in Heaven. I don’t think we even realize how great this support is. They have finished the race, as St. Paul would say. They are victorious. And they can be great models to our own faith life.

Of course it is enough to pray to Jesus. But faith isn’t about what is enough. Every element of faith, every practice, is for the purpose of bringing us closer to the Father through Christ. Sure, it’s enough to attend Mass quickly, receive the Eucharist, go to confession when necessary, etc. But that doesn’t mean that going to daily Mass, praying the Rosary, the Divine Mercy Chaplet, the Divine Office, and other such practices, are meaningless. All of these are to strengthen us in our faith even more. Jesus never advocated doing the minimum possible. No, He wanted us to do the most we could possibly do. Why else did nearly all of the apostles die for their faith? They could have played it safe, but they didn’t.

No, you don’t have to pray to the saints. Technically, you could go all your life without praying to any saint.

But, why wouldn’t you want to? I mean, why do you ask friends to pray for you when something is wrong in your life? Isn’t it enough that you pray?

And anyway, just as many people on Earth will likely pray for you whether you ask for it explicitly or not, I do think it’s the same for the saints. But that’s just my opinion.
 
We pray to our Holy Mother Mary and to the saints asking them to pray and intercede for

us.

I think helpful thing is to study the Hail Mary prayer and other

Marion prayers and then you will see the flow is directed to asking her to pray for us, to

help join us with Jesus.

Direct prayers are to Jesus Christ our Lord and our Father as in the Lords Prayer.

Farther Robert Barron’s Catholicism series is amazing. You can see his website
Word On Fire.com also many clips on You Tube and his website, commentaries etc.

Peace and good to you.
 
Regarding the Protestant view of “Why can’t just pray to Jesus?”:

I grew up in “Southern”, “Independent”, and “Bible” Baptist Churches. I get asked this all the time by my family who still seem to be reeling from the news that I have become a Catholic Christian.

My mom asked me “Why can’t you just pray to God like you were taught is true? You should only pray to God the Father to provide!”, to which I replied: “Mom, what is the first prayer you taught me? ‘Thank you, Jesus, for my food. Amen.’ I was told to pray to Jesus. God the Father was made out to be distant and Jesus to be the friendly one. It’s out of balance.”

There’s something missing from the definition of prayer when someone makes a statement that prayer is only for worship. Even so, the intercession of saints falls in alignment with that shallow definition of it! We are asking the bride of Christ to interceed in prayer to God for us to be conformed to his Image and Will. We DO pray directly to God the Father, Jesus the Christ and to the Holy Spirit. He is the triune God, the only true God. But we ask our brothers and sisters here on Earth and in Heaven above to unite as one in prayer that we may be perfected and be what/who He desires us to be. A three stranded cord is not easily broken, you know!

No one has said you can’t pray directly to God. In addition to that thought, to complete it, Prayer to the Saints is not worshipping them.
To point out the post which cited seeking spirits through divination; to do so would be a grave offense against God. If you’ll note, the king was not getting an answer from God, so he took matters in to his own hands and sought out a witch to do a seance. That is completely different from praying to a Saint and requesting them to pray for us. Saul wanted to conjure up through witchcraft, so he could get a direct answer from Samuel for Samuel to tell him what to do. He didn’t want Samuel to pray for him, he thought to himself that God wasn’t listening, so he was going to get his answers from somewhere else by any means possible.
 
  1. Those who are in heaven are perfectly conformed to the image of Christ. (Romans 8:29, I John 3:2)
  2. Christ lives to make intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25)
Therefore:
  1. Those who are in heaven-- if they are perfectly comformed to His image-- must also be interceding for us.
Lots of people have posted some great material in this thread, Brywan, but I wanted to point out that this was well stated and very succinctly put. I’ll remember this for my own future discussions on this topic, especially if I only have time to give a quick response.
 
I don’t see in scripture that the Apostles Prayed to OT saints or NT saints that have passed on. Nor did they teach this in scripture. If they also did not teach this Orally. How Can this be a Apostolic teaching ?
The intercession of saints is taught through Sacred Tradition and is one of the dogmas of the Church. In light of this, it is considered apostolic teaching, having been passed down mostly in an oral fashion until being committed to writing in Church documents and catechisms.

There are two notable things which support what I have stated above.

1) The ancient Christians believed that martyrs went straight to heaven (and the Bible describes them being at the throne of God; see Revelation 6:9-11). Consequently, when the martyrs were buried, Christians traditionally carved ora pro nobis (i.e., “pray for us”) on their tombs. Many of these tombs and carvings still exist, providing historical evidence of the belief in the intercession of the saints in ancient times.

2) The intercession of saints has been historically taught not only by the Catholic Church but also all the various Eastern Orthodox Churches and all the various Oriental Orthodox Churches. These three branches of Christianity encompass all the Christian Churches which grew from the initial Apostolic Sees.

Consider, for example, this article from the Orthodox Christian Information Center: On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints.

As an example of Oriental Orthodox teachings, here is a statement about the beliefs of Coptic Christians:
Copts venerate (not worship) saints and icons, which are images of saints and Christ painted on wood. The Coptic Christian Church teaches that saints act as intercessors for the prayers of the faithful.
(Jack Zavada: Coptic Christian Beliefs and Practices)

Also consider the following material from the Orthodox Answers website. The question was posed, “Do you pray to the saints? Why do you not pray to God only? Isn’t that idolatry?” If you click on this link you will notice that the question was answered by an Orthodox Christian in the exact same way that Catholics typically do.

Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Oriental Orthodox Christians have debated aspects of theology throughout the centuries. Therefore, something that has been historically taught and agreed upon by all three branches of Christianity can be argued to be apostolic by virtue of that fact alone. To say otherwise is to suggest that the intercession of saints is a man-made doctrine that arose in ancient times in one of these Churches and somehow quickly spread over three continents to be fully embraced as a valid belief by all the others. It would be extremely difficult to come up with a credible theory as to how such a thing could have even happened with such astounding efficiency.
Slightly later Church fathers that was not around when the Apostles were around have tended to disagree with each other over things. Can you give me a direct reference from the Apostles disciples. The disciples while the Apostle were alive ?
These specific fathers are known as the Apostolic Fathers. Some of their writings have been preserved but presumably a lot else has been lost to history. Therefore, we have a surviving written account of what they taught on some subjects, but not all. I am on a road trip at the moment and unfortunately away from my patristics library, and lack the time to comb through online versions of their material to see specifically what they said about the subject at hand. Nevertheless, a good overview of how the intercession of saints developed from apostolic times into being declared a dogma of the Church can be gleaned from this article The Communion of Saints.
 
Even Some Jews Today are praying/asking the deceased dzaddik to pray on their behalf.
Google> ‘‘Is it ok to ask a deceased dzaddik to pray on my behalf’’

I don’t see in scripture that the Apostles Prayed to OT saints or NT saints that have passed on. Nor did they teach this in scripture. If they also did not teach this Orally. How Can this be a Apostolic teaching ?
I hope this article ca help you research more…it is from a religions historian…who converted catholic:

calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/

The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.

Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)
 
…I was wondering why do Catholics pray to saints, or to Mary, etc.? Why can’t you just pray to Christ directly?

…I’ve always heard the most direct way to a point is a straight line, so I would think it would be true even with this?
Others have already presented in this thread a lot of good material in response to this, so I’ll only add a little “food for thought”. Because our relationship with God and the saints is founded upon love, not everything within it will be focused entirely on what is necessary or what is the most efficient method. Love also motivates us to do things that are beautiful and fitting, even if not strictly necessary. For example, if someone were to ask, “How many times a week is it necessary for a husband and wife to say ‘I love you’ to one another?” we would naturally feel that such a question is absurd. Such a question fails to recognize what love is supposed to be about in the first place. When we want to express to others that we love them, we typically consider what are beautiful and fitting ways, not necessary and most efficient ways. Therefore, whereas we can (and should) pray directly to the divine persons of the Holy Trinity, it is beautiful and fitting to also involve the saints in our prayer life. After all, they are our brothers and sisters. This process draws us closer together in loving union with them because it is a display of Christian fellowship. We all know how important it is to have fellowship with one another on earth (for example, Acts 2:42; Romans 12:10; 1John 4:11), and the intercession of saints allows us to have fellowship with our brothers and sisters in heaven.

Also consider the fact that a loving relationship often involves the virtues of humility and charity. If I ask the saints to pray for me, I am exhibiting humility, because I realize that I need the help of others while on my journey to heaven. If the saints honor my request by praying for me, they are exercising charity. Once again, this shows how the intercession of the saints is a beautiful and fitting aspect of our loving relationship with God and one another.
 
Praying to the Saints in Heaven sounds nice, however, prayers to the dead are pagan custom and talking to the dead is witchcraft.

May people in the last 2000 years have been imprisoned, tortured, and executed for communing with the dead.

Praying to the dead treats the spirit of the target person as a deity.
Talking to the dead is something Wicca people try to accomplish. Neither is Christian.
The 4th century church probably used this practice to attract the Pagans into the faith.

King Saul tried to conjure up Samuel’s Spirit after the prophet had died and Samuel was very displease. 1Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

I

We are to pray for each other, however, Saints in Heaven who behold God’s face don’t likely pray to each other and they don’t need us to pray for them.

Also, the title “Queen of Heaven” is also a pagan term for a mother goddess. See Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19, 25. Mary cannot answer prayers because she is one of us a flawed human being. She is to be admired for her faith and self sacrifice. Only God answers Prayers. The Heavenly Saints and angels are aware of us by the grace of God who hears and answers prayers. We do not need to go around him.

Let us all direct our prayers to the Father through his Son and our legitimate mediator.
Is there not a difference between those that have passed over and not in heaven being dead. And those that have passed over and are in heaven being alive ?
How can it be praying to the dead when they are alive ?

[Treating them as a deity ?] Is not those saints in heaven fully conformed to the Image of Christ > deified and are Gods ?
 
as someone who Anglican roots, I am a bit surprised that you would offer this as “the official protestant position”. There are Anglicans that practice invocation of the saints.

There is no “official protestant position” on anything because there is no “protestant church”.

Finally, when the author says: *Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry. * he is missing the important point that “prayer” has more than one meaning.

Jon
What are the other meanings of prayer?
 
Thankfully no one asks for that in real life… just in myths, legends, and pious stories. I certainly don’t need one of the saints to come teach me. God will suffice, in His holy Church. The saints will pray… because they love us. That is all. 🙂

The Jews couldn’t have asked the departed to pray because the bonds of death were not yet broken. We can only do this because of Christ. It’s no wonder we don’t find it in the Old Testament - it wasn’t possible, the Lord hadn’t yet destroyed death.
Yes most Jews today use the scriptures in the OT regarding the Lord can not Hear the departed even today.

But for some reason some Jews see otherwise.
 
Hi everyone,

So I’m sure this question has been asked a whole lot of times on this forum. If it has, you can refer me to a link where it’s been answered and I would be happy with that. But, I was wondering why do Catholics pray to saints, or to Mary, etc.? Why can’t you just pray to Christ directly? Like I’ve heard the idea that because St. Anthony or Mary is actually closer to God than we are, then he is more likely to listen to them than us. But why do you have to be in Heaven to be “closer to God”, why can’t you be close to him right now by reading the Bible as God’s Word, and giving to God whatever is on our heart? I’ve always heard the most direct way to a point is a straight line, so I would think it would be true even with this?

Sincerely,
Andrew
Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints

Prove Prayer to Saints is Biblical

Prove Mary is my Mother
 
We pray to our Holy Mother Mary and to the saints asking them to pray and intercede for

us.

I think helpful thing is to study the Hail Mary prayer and other

Marion prayers and then you will see the flow is directed to asking her to pray for us, to

help join us with Jesus.

Direct prayers are to Jesus Christ our Lord and our Father as in the Lords Prayer.

Farther Robert Barron’s Catholicism series is amazing. You can see his website
Word On Fire.com also many clips on You Tube and his website, commentaries etc.

Peace and good to you.
Oh oh! maybe I should not post I know posts until I know more:-) But today I heard

“we do not pray to God, we pray in Him”
 
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