Praying to the dead (uncannonized)

[Potato1]

Ok I understand that and why we can pray to saints such as St Anthony, Saint Michael, St Jude, St Joseph and the like.
Can we pray to other deceaced? Realatives, historical figures, and if so could one pray to someone that was not Catholic. Are there any Church teachings on this?

 

[LilyM]

Of course we can - how could all those canonised saints intercede to perform the required miracles for their canonisation if people didn’t pray to them before they were canonised, eh? :hmm:

It’s a natural human instinct to pray to those we know who have lived holy lives and passed on. Ancestor ‘worship’ is common to so many cultures it’s not funny - surely it’s a sign of innate knowledge that through God the living and the dead are intimately connected.

No sincere prayer is wasted, if it be for God’s glory, and He’s certainly glorified by our belief in the Communion of Saints!

 

[Potato1]

True and i would hve no prob praying to say Mother Theresa or JPII but what if they are not Catholic. My father was a non practicing mormon, could we pray to Martin luther, Ghandi, Muhammed?!!! I am just fuzzy on this.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

I could be mistaken, but I think you are not supposed to start praying to a deceased person until they have been declared venerable. This declaration is made by the local bishop and is the result of extensive research into the person’s life.

As for praying to deceased non-Catholics, no way. If there are any in Heaven, it is a result of an extraordinary act of grace that we cannot be aware of.

 

[LilyM]

I could be mistaken, but I think you are not supposed to start praying to a deceased person until they have been declared venerable. This declaration is made by the local bishop and is the result of extensive research into the person’s life.

As for praying to deceased non-Catholics, no way. If there are any in Heaven, it is a result of an extraordinary act of grace that we cannot be aware of.

No - a miracle performed at the intercession of a deceased person is required for them to even be declared Blessed in the first place, how is such obtained without prayer to that person?

 

[Scotty_PGH]

No - a miracle performed at the intercession of a deceased person is required for them to even be declared Blessed in the first place, how is such obtained without prayer to that person?

Re-read what I wrote. There is a distinction between *venerable *and blessed.

Venerable is before the miracle, blessed is after.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

**Servant of God **- then the Bishop must declare them venerable, then:

Venerable - now the Bishop can encourage devotion, after which there must be a miracle, then:

**Blessed **- now there must be a second miracle, then:

Saint

 

[Potato1]

So that is a big n.o. for praying to a non Catholic. Could someone please provide documentation for me, I have looked for this answer and had considerable trouble finding it. I posted in AA but ya know how that goes…

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Ok I understand that and why we can pray to saints such as St Anthony, Saint Michael, St Jude, St Joseph and the like.
Can we pray to other deceaced? Realatives, historical figures, and if so could one pray to someone that was not Catholic. Are there any Church teachings on this?

I asked my priest about this once. My grandmother had recently died, and I asked if I could pray to her. He assured me that I could. I never did; it didn’t feel right and I don’t think Grandma would have approved.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

I asked my priest about this once. My grandmother had recently died, and I asked if I could pray to her. He assured me that I could. I never did; it didn’t feel right and I don’t think Grandma would have approved.

Good for you. Unfortunately we can no longer just assume that our priests have been catechized any better than the average layperson. That priest certainly gave you incorrect advice. Maybe he thought it was the kind, sensitive thing to tell a grieving person who misses her grandma. But he does even greater harm by giving un-Catholic instruction to a member of his flock.

I’m sure you already know this and do this, but by all means, never stop praying for the repose of your grandmother’s soul!

 

[LilyM]

**Servant of God **- then the Bishop must declare them venerable, then:

Venerable - now the Bishop can encourage devotion, after which there must be a miracle, then:

**Blessed **- now there must be a second miracle, then:

Saint

I stand corrected

Be that as it may, official devotion, such as that which a Bishop can instate or encourage among the faithful in his diocese, is an entirely different thing to** private** prayers.

Take the unapproved apparitions of Medjugorje for example. The local bishop has forbidden official church-sponsored pilgrimages there, and is within his rights to do so. He has not, because he cannot, forbid private individuals from visiting and praying there.

So official devotion is the only thing the Bishop has jurisdiction over. Provided we’re not overstepping the bounds, for example, into worship of a person rather than God. And you’re right in that PUBLIC prayers to someone who hadn’t been declared Venerable would indeed be wrong.

Private prayers to Grandma or whoever are perfectly OK. As Catholics we should take as role models and intercessors those who lived the Catholic faith well rather than thsoe of other faiths.

 

[mozier]

Officially, no.

Unofficially, sure. My parents have both passed on from this life, and I have “felt” their intercession whenever I have looked up and prayed. Once, when my old van broke down and I needed a new car, I prayed, “Dad, I cannot do this alone. I never did have your mechanical know-how, but I sure could use it now. I believe you are in heaven, so please put in a good word to The Lord for me and help me out so I don’t get ripped off.” And sure enough, I ended up with a new car that has been wonderful to me.

Recently, my mother passed on, and during a tough period, I prayed, “Mom, I know how you suffered in this life and how you certainly did your purgatory here with your disease. I have no doubts where you are, and that you are surely hanging out with Mary right now, so I would appreciate you two going to Jesus and asking for this help at this time.” I was then blanketed by a warmth I cannot explain further, other than I felt my mom’s presence!

So I may not have my bishop’s blessing, and I cannot prove it further than my own testimony, but I know it to be true.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Private prayers to Grandma or whoever are perfectly OK. As Catholics we should take as role models and intercessors those who lived the Catholic faith well rather than thsoe of other faiths.

Very much wrong! Please find a traditional priest and speak with him on this matter. You can never assume someone is in Heaven (and thus capable of hearing your prayers), until the Church has declared that they are! This includes Grandma! Until Grandma is declared a venerable, it is your responsibility as a Catholic to pray for the repose of her soul!

 

[LilyM]

Very much wrong! Please find a traditional priest and speak with him on this matter. You can never assume someone is in Heaven (and thus capable of hearing your prayers), until the Church has declared that they are! This includes Grandma! Until Grandma is declared a venerable, it is your responsibility as a Catholic to pray for the repose of her soul!

I do that as well, of course. As is my duty, as you said.

Not assuming grandpa and uncle (in my case) are in heaven, it’s a hope and a feeling, not an assumption.

And unless there’s something in the Catechism - any Catholic Catechism - or some Papal or conciliar document saying that praying to uncanonised persons is wrong then it ain’t official teaching and no priest, traditional or otherwise, has any business saying it is. Please point me to such a statement if there is one.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

And unless there’s something in the Catechism - any Catholic Catechism - or some Papal or conciliar document saying that praying to uncanonised persons is wrong then it ain’t official teaching and no priest, traditional or otherwise, has any business saying it is. Please point me to such a statement if there is one.

This is an odd question. If the Church tells you that you may pray to a deceased person after they’ve been declared venerable, is it not clear that you should not do so before then?

 

[Skeingirl70]

I remember during my wedding rehearsal, a nun who was a family friend encouraged me to “pray to” my mother (who died many years ago). I sort of winced and looked around to be sure that my husband’s mother (who is Southern Baptist & somewhat anti-Catholic) didn’t hear, because she would have thought Sister was encouraging me to worship my dead mother. Of course Sister meant no such thing; she meant I should ask my mother to pray for me.

Point of the story: when you “pray to” a dead loved one, you’re simply asking that person to pray for you. Therefore, I can’t see that it is not allowed.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

I remember during my wedding rehearsal, a nun who was a family friend encouraged me to “pray to” my mother (who died many years ago). I sort of winced and looked around to be sure that my husband’s mother (who is Southern Baptist & somewhat anti-Catholic) didn’t hear, because she would have thought Sister was encouraging me to worship my dead mother. Of course Sister meant no such thing; she meant I should ask my mother to pray for me.

Point of the story: when you “pray to” a dead loved one, you’re simply asking that person to pray for you. Therefore, I can’t see that it is not allowed.

Let me explain: When your mother dies, you can hope she is in Heaven or Purgatory, but you can never assume that she is unless the Church declares it so. So until your mother has been declared venerable, you cannot pray ***to ***her. You must instead pray ***for ***her. If a priest or a nun teaches otherwise, they are teaching in contradiction to the Church. They may think they are comforting you, but they are really doing far more damage by spreading error. Unfortunately, this is so common nowadays that these very priests and nuns are almost certainly unaware of their own error.

The way I’ve spelled it out is the way the Church teaches on this subject. I don’t think there’s anything else I can add to make it more clear.

 

[LilyM]

This is an odd question. If the Church tells you that you may pray to a deceased person after they’ve been declared venerable, is it not clear that you should not do so before then?

Yet again - let’s clarify. You and the Church have said PUBLIC prayer to a person is not permitted before they are declared Venerable, since it is only on matters of public prayer that a Bishop has authority.

So things such as inserting their name among the saints in a Mass or holding a public novena to them or some such is what is not allowed. I understand and accept fully that this is both not permitted and wrong.

Private prayer to an individual one believes to be either in purgatory or in heaven is absolutely not wrong or impermissible. A bishop has no right nor authority to either permit or forbid such private devotions. Their sphere is ONLY public prayer and worship.

One certainly can and many do pray privatey TO the souls in Purgatory as well as FOR them - do a google search, there are novenas and such out there addressed to them. For private use only, of course.

The thing is souls in Purgatory can pray for others just as well as we can. They are living members of the Body of Christ just as we are, no? So it stands to reason they can pray for other members of that body as we do. If they can pray for us then we can pray TO them as well as FOR them.

The one and only thing they can’t do is pray for or earn any merit for themselves.

 

[Fidelis]

Yet again - let’s clarify. You and the Church have said PUBLIC prayer to a person is not permitted before they are declared Venerable, since it is only on matters of public prayer that a Bishop has authority.

So things such as inserting their name among the saints in a Mass or holding a public novena to them or some such is what is not allowed. I understand and accept fully that this is both not permitted and wrong.

Private prayer to an individual one believes to be either in purgatory or in heaven is absolutely not wrong or impermissible. A bishop has no right nor authority to either permit or forbid such private devotions. Their sphere is ONLY public prayer and worship.

One certainly can and many do pray privatey TO the souls in Purgatory as well as FOR them - do a google search, there are novenas and such out there addressed to them. For private use only, of course.

The thing is souls in Purgatory can pray for others just as well as we can. They are living members of the Body of Christ just as we are, no? So it stands to reason they can pray for other members of that body as we do. If they can pray for us then we can pray TO them as well as FOR them.

The one and only thing they can’t do is pray for or earn any merit for themselves.

This is the correct answer. You may ask anyone in the Communion of Saints to pray for you. If they are not canonized saints, however, you cannot make it a public act of devotion.

If you have good reason to expect such a person not to be in heaven (such as Hitler or Stalin), it would probably not be a good use of your time.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

This is the correct answer. You may ask anyone in the Communion of Saints to pray for you.

I guess you and I have different understandings of what exactly the Communion of Saints is. One does not join that Communion by simply dying, which is the only criterion you are imposing before one may begin praying to Grandma.