Praying to the dead (uncannonized)

[Fidelis]

I guess you and I have different understandings of what exactly the Communion of Saints is. One does not join that Communion by simply dying, which is the only criterion you are imposing before one may begin praying to Grandma.

I have exactly the understanding of the Communion of Saints that the Church teaches. From the Catechism:

1474…The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."

1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others…

958 Communion with the dead. “In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them.” Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I think Scotty may be wrong about the venerable declaration, but I do think that perhaps the person’s cause must be open (ie, they’re granted the title “Servant of God”). Also, no bishop declares the candidate venerable, except the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Fidelis]

I think Scotty may be wrong about the venerable declaration, but I do think that perhaps the person’s cause must be open (ie, they’re granted the title “Servant of God”). Also, no bishop declares the candidate venerable, except the Bishop of Rome.

Again, that is true for public, communal devotion, but not for individuals privately.

Would you say that the person who visits their dead mother’s grave or gazes at her picture and “talks” to their deceased mother is doing something verbotten and would be condemned by the Church for doing so? That is essentially what we are talking about here.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Again, that is true for public, communal devotion, but not for individuals privately.

Would you say that the person who visits their dead mother’s grave or gazes at her picture and “talks” to their deceased mother is doing something verbotten and would be condemned by the Church for doing so? That is essentially what we are talking about here.

No, and I admit that I have asked my grandmothers to pray for me before, much as I did while they were living. But we could ALSO cross a dangerous line here, couldn’t we?

 

[Potato1]

It amazes me that the Church appars not to address this during this day and age. As a convert I often wonder about my father who was not Catholic, he was a mormon though he was not practicing. I of course realize the practicality of praying for him, but to him… My common sense tells me that one of the reasons for cannonizations and paton saints is so we have people that we know can help us with our cause. The Church herself seems to be very explicit on who is “cannonized” and in heaven, I inow that emotionally I would like to pray to my dad, But is that really prudent and where do you draw the line, ghandi? Muhammed? Brigham Young? While the Church doent condemn even Hitler it sure does not aknowledge anyone who is not Catholic A.D. in heaven. Even in this thread, people seem only to deal with “Catholic” grandparents and such, what of those of us who do not have “catholic” histories.

 

[Fidelis]

No, and I admit that I have asked my grandmothers to pray for me before, much as I did while they were living. But we could ALSO cross a dangerous line here, couldn’t we?

Yes, I think one could cross a line, just like in ANY religious practice.

I think if one’s request for prayers from granny turned into full-blown cultic devotion, even in private, this would be a problem. But I think problems could result for any religious person regarding almost ANY religious practice who is poorly catechized and lacks prudence and perspective. This goes for everything from “worshipping” statues to practicing Sola Scriptura. There is nothing inherently wrong with either statues or reading the Bible --in fact both are good-- but the ignorant and the unstable can pervert their use.

ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia–the abuse of something good does not, as a consequence, invalidate it’s proper use.

 

[Fidelis]

I know that emotionally I would like to pray to my dad, But is that really prudent and where do you draw the line, Ghandi? Muhammed? Brigham Young? While the Church doent condemn even Hitler it sure does not aknowledge anyone who is not Catholic A.D. in heaven. Even in this thread, people seem only to deal with “Catholic” grandparents and such, what of those of us who do not have “catholic” histories.

As I said above, if you have good reason to expect such-and-such a person not to be in heaven (such as Hitler or Stalin or even a granny who died a notoriously unrepentant sinner, or was unabashedly atheistic, or made it a point to blaspheme God at every turn), prudence would dictate that it would probably not be a good use of your time to pray to them.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Yes, I think one could cross a line, just like in ANY religious practice.

I think if one’s request for prayers from granny turned into full-blown cultic devotion, even in private, this would be a problem. But I think problems could result for any religious person regarding almost ANY religious practice who is poorly catechized and lacks prudence and perspective. This goes for everything from “worshipping” statues to practicing Sola Scriptura. There is nothing inherently wrong with either statues or reading the Bible --in fact both are good-- but the ignorant and the unstable can pervert their use.

ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia–the abuse of something good does not, as a consequence, invalidate it’s proper use.

Your last paragraph should be writ large over all these fora. And I’m going to be quoting you.

 

[Evan]

I think if one’s request for prayers from granny turned into full-blown cultic devotion, even in private, this would be a problem.

This is exactly how early saints were cannonized. If a cultic devotion grew around their memory and persisted, they were considered a Saint.

 

[Potato1]

As I said above, if you have good reason to expect such-and-such a person not to be in heaven (such as Hitler or Stalin or even a granny who died a notoriously unrepentant sinner, or was unabashedly atheistic, or made it a point to blaspheme God at every turn), prudence would dictate that it would probably not be a good use of your time to pray to them.

So it is an individual decision as to which people are in heaven? I am confused. The Church goes out of her way to declare that an athiest, hitler, stalin or a childmolester next door could be in heaven. On could concievably believe that at the time of His death hitler repented with his last bit of life. So could one pray to him for the unification of europe. Could one pray to George Washington for prudent leadership for the Country. Could one pray to a Muhammed for fidelity to God and the middle east?

 

[Potato1]

Perhaps I mistitled the thread, am primarily concerned with non Catholic dead people.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

So it is an individual decision as to which people are in heaven? I am confused. The Church goes out of her way to declare that an athiest, hitler, stalin or a childmolester next door could be in heaven. On could concievably believe that at the time of His death hitler repented with his last bit of life. So could one pray to him for the unification of europe. Could one pray to George Washington for prudent leadership for the Country. Could one pray to a Muhammed for fidelity to God and the middle east?

My advice to you: Take the safe route and only pray to those saints the Church has infallibly declared to be in Heaven.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Perhaps I mistitled the thread, am primarily concerned with non Catholic dead people.

In that case, what I said above stands: You can NEVER pray to a deceased non-Catholic, as we can only assume they haven’t made it to Heaven. If they have, it would be due to an extraordinary act of grace of which we would be unaware.

In fact, you are not even allowed to pray ***for ***them publicly (i.e., you cannot ask that a public Mass be offered for the repose of their soul, though a Mass may be privately offered for this intention).

 

[LilyM]

So it is an individual decision as to which people are in heaven? I am confused. The Church goes out of her way to declare that an athiest, hitler, stalin or a childmolester next door could be in heaven. On could concievably believe that at the time of His death hitler repented with his last bit of life. So could one pray to him for the unification of europe. Could one pray to George Washington for prudent leadership for the Country. Could one pray to a Muhammed for fidelity to God and the middle east?

It’s not really an individual decision - people either are in heaven or purgatory or they are not. The fact that you pray to them won’t change that, it’s not your call. But it is certainly fine to pray to people that you have good reason to believe are in heaven or purgatory.

And even if you’re mistaken I think God doesn’t mind - after all it is His choice not to reveal to us the names of every person currently residing in heaven or purgatory (or hell for that matter). And He probably does so in order that we will keep up the laudable practice of praying for, with, and yes, to as well, our fellow members of the Body of Christ.

You could always make your prayer conditional - ‘Granny, if you can help me with xyz please do’ or such. Totally inoffensive when you phrase it that way, since it doesn’t express a certainty that they’re in heaven or purgatory.

That all having been said, it’s HIGHLY imprudent at the very least to pray to those who are extremely doubtful cases.

There are numerous canonised saints who have been declared patrons of Europe (Catherine of Siena being one), America (Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, or maybe American saints and blesseds such as Katherine Drexel, John Neumann or Kateri Tekakwitha), patron saints of statesmen/politicians (St Thomas More) or missionaries to non-Christians (St Therese of Lisieux), and patrons of every other blessed thing you could imagine, and some you couldn’t.

They would be the best to pray to about such matters rather than a Hitler or a Muhammad.

 

[Fidelis]

So it is an individual decision as to which people are in heaven? I am confused. The Church goes out of her way to declare that an athiest, hitler, stalin or a childmolester next door could be in heaven. On could concievably believe that at the time of His death hitler repented with his last bit of life. So could one pray to him for the unification of europe. Could one pray to George Washington for prudent leadership for the Country. Could one pray to a Muhammed for fidelity to God and the middle east?

If I were so addle-brained that I could take something so simple and really take it to such unrealistic and ridiculous extremes, this would be the least of my worries. ANY belief, no matter how simple or clear, can be belittled by hypothesizing ridiculous scenarios.

You can’t make anything so fool-proof so that no simpleton will find a way to abuse it. I hope this doesn’t describe you.