praying to virgin mary and the saints

[twopekinguys]

If saints are anyone who has died and gone to Heaven, can you pray to your grandparents or other people in your family who have died? And, can anyone who has ever lived know for sure that they are or are not going to Heaven?

To the first part of your question–the answer is Yes. Anyone who is in heaven is a saint, and you can pray for their intercession. I think in most cases, we all believe our loved ones are in heaven, so they are merely undeclared Saints, but Saints none the less.

To the second part of your question. There is no way with 100% accuracy that we can say anyone is in heaven, or isn’t. However, with that being said, the church does teach that the Saints recognized by the Church are in Heaven in the presence of our Lord. The process of declaring someone a Saint is a lengthy and very detailed process, and is not taken lightly.

However, in reality, the only way you’re going to have that answered with 100% accuracy, is to get to heaven ourselves. In the meantime, I will trust the Church’s determination on their sainthood.

I hope this helps.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Why do you continue to reply when your have no clue what you are saying. I know what mediator means and those believers that are with Christ are not interceding for us. If you really study the bible you would know that christ is interceding for us to the father. i really think you have a hard time understanding scripture. Please read it slowly and meditate on what Christ is saying. For example Jn 3:16 "that whoever believes in him shall NOT perish but HAVE eternal life. Eph 2:8-9, I know i have been saved because of what God’s Word says not by someone like you who continue to spread lies about God’s Word. Every time I see a reply from you i pray that no one follows your lies. Please take some time off and really study God’s Word. I think your ego has gotten in the way. Remember there is greater condemnation for those who do not share the truth of God’s Word.

Wow! Most of Elvisman’s response was simply quotations from scripture. Your response does nothing to address the clear contradiction between what is written in scripture and what you are preaching.

Jesus Christ is our One Mediator. He is not our One-and-Only Intercessor or we could never ask our brothers and sisters here with us to pray on our behalf, right?. We all believe that He is the One in whom all Christians are incorporated. He is the Vine and we are the branches. He is the head and we are the body. So, if Christ is “interceding” and we christians are all “in christ” then are we not all interceding in Him to the Father? If that is so, and I think scripture supports this, then how could any prayer request to a saint in heaven NOT include Christ? (The simple answer is that it cannot exclude Christ.) Your attempt to meld these terms (mediator and intercessor) is simply not supported because intercessory prayer is only possible because of Christ’s Mediatorship and our incorporation into Him. His unique mediatior status does not contradict prayer to the saints, it compels and supports the notion that we are all spiritually of one body and cannot ignore each other in our requests before the Father.

Regarding salvation (OSAS), to add to Elvisman’s comment above, note that in John 3:16, the verb is in the active tense… It does not say that you are saved if you once believed. It speaks of active and enduring belief. The belief that is being spoken of in Jn 3:16 is not a once-in-the-past altar call or a blessed spiritual encounter (both good things that one should have as part of their christian life). The the belief spoken of in John is an active and enduring faith that is manifest in the good works that we do in response to that grace. No one here is doubting the gift of eternal life offered by God. What orthodox Catholics acknowledge, however, is that the gift of grace that incorporates us into the body of Christ requires our response. Your soteriology speaks of salvation as a wedding ceremony. The gospel speaks of salvation as marriage - a covenantal love that is active and enduring - not a one-time imputed righteousness but a real and enduring change of person. Dont’ get me wrong. The wedding ceremony is a wonderful event. But a good wedding ceremony is only the beginning of a marriage, just as a real encounter with Christ is just the beginning of a person’s walk with the Lord.

All I see from your response is a personal attack. IMO that is not very persuasive. But perhaps my ego is getting in the way too.

Peace,
Robert

 

[JonNC]

I know i have been saved because of what God’s Word says not by someone like you who continue to spread lies about God’s Word. Every time I see a reply from you i pray that no one follows your lies. Please take some time off and really study God’s Word. I think your ego has gotten in the way. Remember there is greater condemnation for those who do not share the truth of God’s Word.

I have quickly reviewed this thread again, and can find no instance of someone telling a lie.
Elvisman and I do not always agree, but he is speaking his faith, not telling lies. Lies require an intent to deceive, which is not present here.
I find this kind of accusation lacking in charity, regardless of who makes it - Catholic or non-Catholic.

Jon

 

[freedomwriter]

I have quickly reviewed this thread again, and can find no instance of someone telling a lie.
Elvisman and I do not always agree, but he is speaking his faith, not telling lies. Lies require an intent to deceive, which is not present here.
I find this kind of accusation lacking in charity, regardless of who makes it - Catholic or non-Catholic.

Jon

When a person continues to provide misinterpretations after being shown where they are wrong, they begin to be lies. This is not the only thread that i have come across that he will not listen. For me not to expose these misinterpretations would show a lack of charity. It does not matter if they are catholic or not. If I am wrong in the scriptures i have no problem accepting that. Some people do and they need to be exposed.

 

[freedomwriter]

Wow! Most of Elvisman’s response was simply quotations from scripture. Your response does nothing to address the clear contradiction between what is written in scripture and what you are preaching.

Jesus Christ is our One Mediator. He is not our One-and-Only Intercessor or we could never ask our brothers and sisters here with us to pray on our behalf, right?. We all believe that He is the One in whom all Christians are incorporated. He is the Vine and we are the branches. He is the head and we are the body. So, if Christ is “interceding” and we christians are all “in christ” then are we not all interceding in Him to the Father? If that is so, and I think scripture supports this, then how could any prayer request to a saint in heaven NOT include Christ? (The simple answer is that it cannot exclude Christ.) Your attempt to meld these terms (mediator and intercessor) is simply not supported because intercessory prayer is only possible because of Christ’s Mediatorship and our incorporation into Him. His unique mediatior status does not contradict prayer to the saints, it compels and supports the notion that we are all spiritually of one body and cannot ignore each other in our requests before the Father.

Regarding salvation (OSAS), to add to Elvisman’s comment above, note that in John 3:16, the verb is in the active tense… It does not say that you are saved if you once believed. It speaks of active and enduring belief. The belief that is being spoken of in Jn 3:16 is not a once-in-the-past altar call or a blessed spiritual encounter (both good things that one should have as part of their christian life). The the belief spoken of in John is an active and enduring faith that is manifest in the good works that we do in response to that grace. No one here is doubting the gift of eternal life offered by God. What orthodox Catholics acknowledge, however, is that the gift of grace that incorporates us into the body of Christ requires our response. Your soteriology speaks of salvation as a wedding ceremony. The gospel speaks of salvation as marriage - a covenantal love that is active and enduring - not a one-time imputed righteousness but a real and enduring change of person. Dont’ get me wrong. The wedding ceremony is a wonderful event. But a good wedding ceremony is only the beginning of a marriage, just as a real encounter with Christ is just the beginning of a person’s walk with the Lord.

All I see from your response is a personal attack. IMO that is not very persuasive. But perhaps my ego is getting in the way too.

Peace,
Robert

Never said anything about intercessory prayer for each other did I. My point is prayer to someone who is called a saint. My point is that they are dead and with christ. They cannot hear your prayer. So why pray to someone who can’t hear your prayers and not go straight to Christ. I also didn’t say that just by believing in Christ you are saved alone. We are to show fruits of our salvation in Christ. This is not a personal attack. Just trying to expose those misinterpretations and if your ego gets in the way where you feel you are unteachable then take that up with the Lord. God Bless Brother:thumbsup:

 

[JonNC]

When a person continues to provide misinterpretations after being shown where they are wrong, they begin to be lies. This is not the only thread that i have come across that he will not listen. For me not to expose these misinterpretations would show a lack of charity. It does not matter if they are catholic or not. If I am wrong in the scriptures i have no problem accepting that. Some people do and they need to be exposed.

The fact the he won’t listen to you is irrelevent. He is listening to and responding based on his belief, and from what I can tell, it is in line with his communion’s teachings, and it’s pretty certain he’ll listen to the Magisterium before you. Simply because you disagree with that teaching does not make it a lie. The accusation makes you appear uncharitable and, frankly, eliminates any possibility that you will convince anyone, including Protestants. This is true for anyone who resorts to this kind of name-calling.

Jon

 

[elvisman]

When a person continues to provide misinterpretations after being shown where they are wrong, they begin to be lies. This is not the only thread that i have come across that he will not listen. For me not to expose these misinterpretations would show a lack of charity. It does not matter if they are catholic or not. If I am wrong in the scriptures i have no problem accepting that. Some people do and they need to be exposed.

**I listen to the Scriptures and the Gospel and the faithful writings of the Fathers who propagated it. **
I reject the traditions and precepts of men (Protestant “Reformers”) who rebelled against Jesus’ Church.

Never said anything about intercessory prayer for each other did I. My point is prayer to someone who is called a saint. My point is that they are dead and with christ. They cannot hear your prayer. So why pray to someone who can’t hear your prayers and not go straight to Christ. I also didn’t say that just by believing in Christ you are saved alone. We are to show fruits of our salvation in Christ. This is not a personal attack. Just trying to expose those misinterpretations and if your ego gets in the way where you feel you are unteachable then take that up with the Lord. God Bless Brother:thumbsup:

**According to you - the saints in Heaven can’t hear us. According to the Scriptures they are witnesses who most certainly can hear and see us (Heb. 12:1, Rev 5:8, 8:4).
**Therefore you are wrong.

You are also wrong about their prayers not being efficacious (James 5:16) because they certainly ARE righteous now in heaven.

Lastly - you are DEAD wrong about them being simply “dead” and, therefore useless to us (Romans 12:4-5, 1 Cor. 12:12-27).

Would you now be willing to admit that you’re “wrong in the scriptures”, as you claimed above?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Never said anything about intercessory prayer for each other did I.

Your argument against prayer to the saints in heaven begins with the premise that you should only go directly to Jesus. If you ask your christian friends for their prayers, you are NOT going directly to Jesus. Your position is inconsistent. Do you not see that?

freedomwriter:

My point is prayer to someone who is called a saint. My point is that they are dead and with christ. They cannot hear your prayer.

You have not proven this to be the case. Indeed, scripture tells us we are baptized into Christ and we are one body. Are you saying that one part of the body of Christ is dead, or are you willing to concede that Christ is alive as are all of His members?

freedomwriter:

So why pray to someone who can’t hear your prayers and not go straight to Christ.

First, you have not shown that members of the body of Christ who are present with the Lord in heaven cannot hear our prayers. To the contrary, the scriptures suggest that we who are united together in one mystical body cannot ignore each other. Can the hand say to the foot, “I have no need of you?” Of course not. So, those members of Christ’s body who are in heaven are also linked to each of us who remain on earth.

freedomwriter:

I also didn’t say that just by believing in Christ you are saved alone. We are to show fruits of our salvation in Christ.

Do you believe that salvation is a one-time event, and that once a person is “saved” they cannot lose that salvation? If not, please be specific in explaining where you differ on any point.

freedomwriter:

This is not a personal attack.

Well it looked like it when you stated: “Why do you continue to reply when your have no clue what you are saying.” and “…not by someone like you who continue to spread lies about God’s Word.” and “Every time I see a reply from you i pray that no one follows your lies.” Accusing elvisman of being a clueless liar seems like a pretty straightforward personal attack.

freedomwriter:

Just trying to expose those misinterpretations.

They are not misinterpretations IMO. Your personal attack in response to elvisman (as opposed to a response on the merits) suggests the same. And I’ve been studying and praying about this issue for quite a while

freedomwriter:

and if your ego gets in the way where you feel you are unteachable then take that up with the Lord.

Oh, I do… I do. I pray that the Lord always leads me in the ways of truth.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

When a person continues to provide misinterpretations after being shown where they are wrong, they begin to be lies. This is not the only thread that i have come across that he will not listen. For me not to expose these misinterpretations would show a lack of charity. It does not matter if they are catholic or not. If I am wrong in the scriptures i have no problem accepting that. Some people do and they need to be exposed.

So, by your standard if someone has been shown that the scriptures they are interpreting can be interpreted another way, and yet they continue to hold to the meaning they originally understood… they are a liar? Well, you have been shown that the scriptures you rely on do not support your position, and yet you retain the original interpretation you brought with you to these forums? At what point did you become a liar?

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

The fact the he won’t listen to you is irrelevent. He is listening to and responding based on his belief, and from what I can tell, it is in line with his communion’s teachings, and it’s pretty certain he’ll listen to the Magisterium before you. Simply because you disagree with that teaching does not make it a lie. The accusation makes you appear uncharitable and, frankly, eliminates any possibility that you will convince anyone, including Protestants. This is true for anyone who resorts to this kind of name-calling.

Jon

Agreed.

 

[freedomwriter]

I listen to the Scriptures and the Gospel and the faithful writings of the Fathers who propagated it.
I reject the traditions and precepts of men (Protestant “Reformers”) who rebelled against Jesus’ Church.

According to you - the saints in Heaven can’t hear us. According to the Scriptures they are witnesses who most certainly can hear and see us (Heb. 12:1, Rev 5:8, 8:4).
Therefore you are wrong.

You are also wrong about their prayers not being efficacious (James 5:16) because they certainly ARE righteous now in heaven.

Lastly - you are DEAD wrong about them being simply “dead” and, therefore useless to us (Romans 12:4-5, 1 Cor. 12:12-27).

Would you now be willing to admit that you’re “wrong in the scriptures”, as you claimed above?

Those scriptures from Rev 5:8 and 8:4. Where does it say that they are holding the prayers to the saints? I read it as prayers of the saints. James 5:16 those prayers are to be prayed to who, dead believers? It is The Lord v.14 Again in Rom 12:4-5 where do you see that the living are to pray to those who have gone on to be with the Lord? Same goes with I Corinthians. This passage is talking about the unity of the church.

 

[elvisman]

Those scriptures from Rev 5:8 and 8:4. Where does it say that they are holding the prayers to the saints? I read it as prayers of the saints. James 5:16 those prayers are to be prayed to who, dead believers? It is The Lord v.14 Again in Rom 12:4-5 where do you see that the living are to pray to those who have gone on to be with the Lord? Same goes with I Corinthians. This passage is talking about the unity of the church.

**By George - you FINALLY got it!!
The UNITY of the Church is what the Communion of Saints is all about, my angry, anti-Catholic friend.

The problem is that you and many of your Protestant brothers think that those who are no longer on this earth have somehow been kicked out of the Body of Christ. That they are simply dead and have knowledge of nothing.**
**Not so. The passages I provided show that they CAN indeed see and hear us and are offering prayers to God on our behalf.

Since you cling to the belief that they are are no longer part of the Body of Christ and that nobody can intercede on your behalf except for Jesus - you should refrain from asking abybody else to pray for you . . .

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Those scriptures from Rev 5:8 and 8:4. Where does it say that they are holding the prayers to the saints? I read it as prayers of the saints.

Read what you just wrote… the saints in heaven are holding the prayers of the saints on earth in bowls that they then offer to God… THAT is a vision of the body of Christ in prayer. Christians on earth and christians in heaven together offering their prayers to the father. That is what the communion of saints is about. That is why Catholics can include the saints in their prayers… because it is God’s plan to have them included.

freedomwriter:

James 5:16 those prayers are to be prayed to who, dead believers?

Well, the saints in heaven ended up with prayers in their golden bowls. The passage is not specific as to whether the saints on earth prayed directly to Jesus, or asked a saint in heaven to pray for a special need, or simply asked a saint in heaven to intercede (in Christ) to the Father on his or her behalf. As that is the case, I imagine that the saints (being the mystical body of Christ) have all kinds of prayers and petitions in their bowls that all end up being offered to God. This is consistent with Catholic teaching… all prayers ultimately end at God, whether they are directed to God directly (through Christ) or whether they begin as a petition to a saint in heaven to intercede.

freedomwriter:

It is The Lord v.14 Again in Rom 12:4-5 where do you see that the living are to pray to those who have gone on to be with the Lord? Same goes with I Corinthians. This passage is talking about the unity of the church.

Yes, the unity of the Church in Christ. No Catholic is claiming that a prayer to a saint is some sort of “end run” around Christ. The Catholic posiiton is that because christians everywhere are united in one mystical body of Christ our prayers and petitions for each other in that unity of Christ have merit.

Peace,
Robert

 

[freedomwriter]

**By George - you *FINALLY ***got it!!
**The UNITY **of the Church is what the Communion of Saints is all about, my angry, anti-Catholic friend.

The problem is that you and many of your Protestant brothers think that those who are no longer on this earth have somehow been* kicked out* of the Body of Christ. That they are simply dead and have knowledge of nothing.
***Not ***so. The passages I provided show that they CAN indeed see and hear us and are offering prayers to God on our behalf.

Since you cling to the belief that they are are no longer part of the Body of Christ and that nobody can intercede on your behalf except for Jesus - you should refrain from asking abybody else to pray for you . . .

You still don’t make any sense LoL my angry anti protestant friend. Two of the last scriptures doesen’t even talk about prayers to the dead sorry Saints. Who do you think these prayers are from the living or dead? You haven’t shown anything in the scriptures that you have provided. Again where does it say in Rev that those prayers are to those in the presense of Christ. I believe those are the prayers to God that they are holding. If not like you say, Why even bother then to pray to God. You see it doesn’t make any sense. Protestants don’t need anyone to intercede for us other than Christ. God Bless my angry friend:thumbsup: I am praying for you

 

[freedomwriter]

Read what you just wrote… the saints in heaven are holding the prayers of the saints on earth in bowls that they then offer to God… THAT is a vision of the body of Christ in prayer. Christians on earth and christians in heaven together offering their prayers to the father. That is what the communion of saints is about. That is why Catholics can include the saints in their prayers… because it is God’s plan to have them included.

Well, the saints in heaven ended up with prayers in their golden bowls. The passage is not specific as to whether the saints on earth prayed directly to Jesus, or asked a saint in heaven to pray for a special need, or simply asked a saint in heaven to intercede (in Christ) to the Father on his or her behalf. As that is the case, I imagine that the saints (being the mystical body of Christ) have all kinds of prayers and petitions in their bowls that all end up being offered to God. This is consistent with Catholic teaching… all prayers ultimately end at God, whether they are directed to God directly (through Christ) or whether they begin as a petition to a saint in heaven to intercede.

Yes, the unity of the Church in Christ. No Catholic is claiming that a prayer to a saint is some sort of “end run” around Christ. The Catholic posiiton is that because christians everywhere are united in one mystical body of Christ our prayers and petitions for each other in that unity of Christ have merit.

Peace,
Robert

God is the only proper object of our prayers: Nowhere in scripture is a prayer of anyone on earth actually addressed to anyone but God. The only prayer in the Bible addressed to a saint was from hell and God did not answer it Luke 16:23-31!
Prayer is an act of religious devotion and therefore only God is the proper object of such devotion Rev 4:11 Jesus taught us to pray to " our Father who art in heaven" The God of Isaiah declared “Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth for I am God; there is no other!” Isa 45:22
Prayer to anyone else is idolatrous: Prayer is a form of worship and only God should be worshiped Ex 20:3
It is forbidden as witchcraft: The OT condemns all attempts to communicate with the dead along with other condemnations of witchcraft Dt 18:10-12, Lev 20:6, 27; 1 Sam 28:5-18, Isa 8:19-20
Denial of the mediatorship of Christ: To use any mere human being to mediate with God is an insult to the all-sufficient, divinely appointed mediatorship of Jesus Christ. I Tim 2:5, Jn 10:9, 14:6/ Hebrews 4:15-16 assures us that in Jesus “we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness”
Finally It is an insult to the Holy Spirit: To pray to the dead is a denial of the work of the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:6, Eph 2:18

 

[elvisman]

You still don’t make any sense LoL my angry anti protestant friend. Two of the last scriptures doesen’t even talk about prayers to the dead sorry Saints. Who do you think these prayers are from the living or dead? You haven’t shown anything in the scriptures that you have provided. Again where does it say in Rev that those prayers are to those in the presense of Christ. I believe those are the prayers to God that they are holding. If not like you say, Why even bother then to pray to God. You see it doesn’t make any sense. Protestants don’t need anyone to intercede for us other than Christ. God Bless my angry friend:thumbsup: I am praying for you

Question: If you have an open line to God and don’t need or want their help - WHY would they be taking those prayers to him for you?? Why would they be holding them??

Answer: Because they intercede on our behalf.

Got it now? Good.

Game. Set. MATCH.

 

[elvisman]

God is the only proper object of our prayers: Nowhere in scripture is a prayer of anyone on earth actually addressed to anyone but God. The only prayer in the Bible addressed to a saint was from hell and God did not answer it Luke 16:23-31!
Prayer is an act of religious devotion and therefore only God is the proper object of such devotion Rev 4:11 Jesus taught us to pray to " our Father who art in heaven" The God of Isaiah declared “Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth for I am God; there is no other!” Isa 45:22
Prayer to anyone else is idolatrous: Prayer is a form of worship and only God should be worshiped Ex 20:3
It is forbidden as witchcraft: The OT condemns all attempts to communicate with the dead along with other condemnations of witchcraft Dt 18:10-12, Lev 20:6, 27; 1 Sam 28:5-18, Isa 8:19-20
Denial of the mediatorship of Christ: To use any mere human being to mediate with God is an insult to the all-sufficient, divinely appointed mediatorship of Jesus Christ. I Tim 2:5, Jn 10:9, 14:6/ Hebrews 4:15-16 assures us that in Jesus “we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness”
Finally It is an insult to the Holy Spirit: To pray to the dead is a denial of the work of the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:6, Eph 2:18

Your problem (along with many, many others) has been your ignorant approach to the Scriptures - not to mention plain English. Prayer isn’t only used for adoration. When somebody asks you a question - they pray for your response.

Let’s see what our very educated Protestant friend Webster has to say about the word, “Pray”:
*****transitive verb *****
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE — often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea "pray be careful"
2 : to get or bring by praying
*****intransitive verb *****
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

You have been shown that Jesus is our only mediator in that only HE could provide the perfect scarifice before the Father for our sins. You keep insisting that nobody else can intercede on your behalf. This goes against the beliefs of every single Protestant denomination. They are constantly asking for prayers from one another.

You have been shown that those in heaven are every bit as much part of the Body of Christ as those of us on earth, but you refuse to believe - even though the Scriptures tell us this.

Your biggest problem here hasn’t been ignorance - it’s spiritual pride.

 

[freedomwriter]

**Your problem (along with many, many others) has been your ignorant **approach to the Scriptures - not to mention plain English. Prayer isn’t only used for adoration. When somebody asks you a question - they pray for your response.

**Let’s see what our very educated Protestant friend Webster **has to say about the word, “Pray”:
*****transitive verb *****
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE — often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea “pray be careful”
2 : to get or bring by praying
*****intransitive verb *****
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

You have been shown that Jesus is our only mediator in that only HE could provide the perfect scarifice before the Father for our sins. You keep insisting that nobody else can intercede on your behalf. This goes against the beliefs of every single Protestant denomination. They are constantly asking for prayers from one another.

You have been shown that those in heaven are every bit as much part of the Body of Christ as those of us on earth, but you refuse to believe - even though the Scriptures tell us this.

Your biggest problem here hasn’t been ignorance - it’s spiritual pride.

Don’t be mad brother lol. You call me an angry anti catholic which i am not, then you call me ignorant. Whats up with that brother:shrug:. All you have to do is respond to the scriptures that i gave in my last replay. I don’t need a dictionary just a response to the scriptures i provided. God Bless you my friend.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

God is the only proper object of our prayers: Nowhere in scripture is a prayer of anyone on earth actually addressed to anyone but God. The only prayer in the Bible addressed to a saint was from hell and God did not answer it Luke 16:23-31!

God is the only proper object of our adoration. The word “prayer” refers to a request. You are confusing the terms.

freedomwriter:

Prayer is an act of religious devotion and therefore only God is the proper object of such devotion Rev 4:11 Jesus taught us to pray to " our Father who art in heaven" The God of Isaiah declared “Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth for I am God; there is no other!” Isa 45:22

You are confusing two issues. Catholics are not requesting the intercession of the saints instead of going to God. They are requesting the intercession of the saints who are in Christ because that is what God has given to us… a family (communion) of saints. Prayer can be an act of adoration to God, but it is not by necessity always an act of adoration. You are confusing terms: (1) prayer = petition (neutral regarding adoration); (2) adoration an act reserved for God alone.

freedomwriter:

Prayer to anyone else is idolatrous: Prayer is a form of worship and only God should be worshiped Ex 20:3

NO. Adoration of anyone else (or anything else) is idolatrous. Prayer can be a vehicle for adoration, but it is not always adoration. Catholic prayers to God can include acts of adoration; Catholic prayers to saints are never an act of adoration; they are petitions for intercession in Christ.

freedomwriter:

It is forbidden as witchcraft: The OT condemns all attempts to communicate with the dead along with other condemnations of witchcraft Dt 18:10-12, Lev 20:6, 27; 1 Sam 28:5-18, Isa 8:19-20

LOL! That’s too funny. I cannot believe you think that a prayer to a saint is witchcraft. Nothing about a prayer asking for a saints intercession is contrary to God. It is an act that takes place entirely within the body of Christ. Your misperception is clearly rooted in some fundamental misconceptions about what prayer to the saints is.
freeedomwriter:

Denial of the mediatorship of Christ: To use any mere human being to mediate with God is an insult to the all-sufficient, divinely appointed mediatorship of Jesus Christ. I Tim 2:5, Jn 10:9, 14:6/ Hebrews 4:15-16 assures us that in Jesus “we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness”

And now you’re back to your original argument despite all the posts explaining to you with patience and charity that Catholics at no time deny the position of Christ as our One Mediator. It is that unique mediatorship that allows the members who make up the body of Christ to pray for each other. Your objection at this point is becoming nothing but a “vain repetition”

freedomwriter:

Finally It is an insult to the Holy Spirit: To pray to the dead is a denial of the work of the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:6, Eph 2:18

LOL! That is just too funny! Honestly, it seems to me that you simply do not want to respond to what has been posted by Catholics and instead simply want to repeat your own position over and over. Really, we’ve dealt with all of your objections. Please try to explain why you find it objectionable without just snipping bits of scripture out of context. Deal with the Vine and branches point of view, Why is it not valid? Deal with the Catholic notion of a mystical body of Christ that is supported again and again in Scripture. Deal with the fact that the scriptures tell us to pray for each other. Deal with the fact that God is the God of the living and not the dead. Deal with the fact that if nothing can separate us from Christ, and that we are to be his members forever why it is that we also cannot petition to God on each other’s behalf? Truly, I find your position nothing but a rationalization of your anti-Catholic position. You have decided to reject the notion of the communion of saints and are now plucking verses from scripture, although the unity of scripture and the tradition of the entire church recognized the practice for the first 1500 years. ONLY some of the protestant denominations reject the notion. Deal with the real Catholic position on the matter, not your phantom issues.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

**Your problem (along with many, many others) has been your ignorant **approach to the Scriptures - not to mention plain English. Prayer isn’t only used for adoration. When somebody asks you a question - they pray for your response.

**Let’s see what our very educated Protestant friend Webster **has to say about the word, “Pray”:
*****transitive verb *****
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE — often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea “pray be careful”
2 : to get or bring by praying
*****intransitive verb *****
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

You have been shown that Jesus is our only mediator in that only HE could provide the perfect scarifice before the Father for our sins. You keep insisting that nobody else can intercede on your behalf. This goes against the beliefs of every single Protestant denomination. They are constantly asking for prayers from one another.

You have been shown that those in heaven are every bit as much part of the Body of Christ as those of us on earth, but you refuse to believe - even though the Scriptures tell us this.

Your biggest problem here hasn’t been ignorance - it’s spiritual pride.

Agreed.