I
ibetrippin07
Guest
i called you statute worshipers when?
- Status
I
ibetrippin07
Guest
NO in fact the only apologetics class i ever attended was Gary M’s, hes a pretty well known catholic apologist too you should look him up if you doubt me.
however the main point with the statutes is that the saints, and mary, that you pray to (which btw im still waiting on a way to use prayer outside of a religious or worshipping sense…) you are putting them on a high pedestal even though they themselves were put on a low pedestal from thier own writings “Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” Rom (7:24). I don’t know about you but instead of praying to paul or asking paul for help im just going to go to the same guy Paul went to for help…
Lets be honest, i can say in my lifetime i have not yet denied Christ and yet Peter did it 3 times? Hes supposedly the leader of the early church? Dont get me wrong i still respect the guy, everyone screws up but the point is they are not that high esteemed, they were great people but nothing to be prayed to and nothing to have statues made for…
Jesus even called Mary “woman” you ever call your mother that in a respectful fashion? dont think so…
however the main point with the statutes is that the saints, and mary, that you pray to (which btw im still waiting on a way to use prayer outside of a religious or worshipping sense…) you are putting them on a high pedestal even though they themselves were put on a low pedestal from thier own writings “Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” Rom (7:24). I don’t know about you but instead of praying to paul or asking paul for help im just going to go to the same guy Paul went to for help…
Lets be honest, i can say in my lifetime i have not yet denied Christ and yet Peter did it 3 times? Hes supposedly the leader of the early church? Dont get me wrong i still respect the guy, everyone screws up but the point is they are not that high esteemed, they were great people but nothing to be prayed to and nothing to have statues made for…
Jesus even called Mary “woman” you ever call your mother that in a respectful fashion? dont think so…
T
twopekinguys
Guest
You say you “know Catholics quite well”. Have you discussed this issue with them, or are you merely going by observations and assumptions?
The whole argument about worshipping or praying to statues has been discussed here at CAF over and over and over again, and I’m sure you could find those threads very easily, and see the same responses over and over.
Let me put it to you in plain english. Catholics, and Orthodox do not pray to statues or icons. Never have, never will. These are merely reminders of the person they represent, and help us stay focused in prayer. Don’t tell me your mind has never wandered or drifted during prayer. We all can get distrated in prayer.
Having a statue or icon in your home is no more idolatry than having a picture of a loved one, alive or living in your home. They are reminders of that individual, and that is it.
Do you have a cross in your home? Do you worship it? I’m sure you will say no.
Remember, the cross itself did nothing. However, what Jesus did on the cross is everything.
As for the word “pray” out of a religious context, try Shakespeare. He used the word frequently in that manner. It was used in place of the word “ask”, or “request”, quite often.
It is also used in some legal documents, “praying” that the court side with a particular position. We pray (ask) the court…
I
ibetrippin07
Guest
two, my who life has been spent arguing with people of all faiths on all issues. one of my best friends is catholic and him and i converse about these topics extensively
again dont assume who i am thats extremely disrespectful and dont put words in my mouth saying Catholics worship statutes, I never have nor probably ever will say that so just stop…now
again dont assume who i am thats extremely disrespectful and dont put words in my mouth saying Catholics worship statutes, I never have nor probably ever will say that so just stop…now
T
twopekinguys
Guest
What I find interesting about your statement is “my who life has been spent arguing …”
Arguing is not discussing with the intent of understanding the opposing view.
I do have to agree with Jharmek’s comments about your previous post where you stated
If you weren’t calling us statue/idol worshippers, what were you saying?
I
ibetrippin07
Guest
Stop putting words in my mouth or i will simply stop talking to you in particular. Peter denied Christ 3 times, Im sure iv commited sins peter didnt commit, all sins are filthy rags to God. Point is that even the apostles were not perfect and Paul even called himself “the worst” 1 Tim 1:15. and to raise them up to some pedestal where they should be prayed to is disrespectful and to some extent blasphemous. When did the Jews pray to Abraham? hm? Gods been the same God for eternity, why now would he make it that you should pray to prophets or apostles?
Matt 12:48-50
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
NIV
according to this Christ does not acknowledge Mary as his mother but all those who do the will of God indeed are…
Matt 12:48-50
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
NIV
according to this Christ does not acknowledge Mary as his mother but all those who do the will of God indeed are…
I showed you a definitiion, provided a link, that clearly shows that “pray” can and was used toward people as meaning a sincere request. “I pray you, please hurry up.” Now, it isn’t often used that way anymore, but that doesn’t matter. “Gay” still means “happy”, even though it isn’t often used that way anymore.
I’m sort of curious why you won’t believe Catholics when they say, point blank, that they don’t worship saints and statues.
Well, all Christians hold Paul and the great apostles and martyrs in high regard, or at least they should. They are great examples of faith and obedience.
So, you won’t be asking fellow worshippers at your place of worship to pray for a sick friend because you can go directly to God yourself. The point here is, even though I don’t think those alive in Christ in heaven can hear prayer, I do understand that that is what Catholics are doing - asking for intercessory prayer.
Wow! For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Everytime I have sin, I have denied Christ. How fortunate your are.
Of course, you probably have never faced the threat of crucifixion for professing you know Him.
Just wow.
Jon
I
ibetrippin07
Guest
pick picky
aw how nice of you to inform me
aw thats nice that you and Jharmek found each other now if you could stay relevant to the topic…
simply saying that the catholic church has practically made idols of mary and the apostles by making statutes of them, offering prayers to them and asking favors of them.
I
ibetrippin07
Guest
maybe you just dont get it m8, my point is all are equal all are called to be saints and all are to worship Jesus Christ. All are instruments who are no greater than the previous or latter. The plumber that study’s his bible everyday and actively worships Jesus is just as important as the pope…I showed you a definitiion, provided a link, that clearly shows that “pray” can and was used toward people as meaning a sincere request. “I pray you, please hurry up.” Now, it isn’t often used that way anymore, but that doesn’t matter. “Gay” still means “happy”, even though it isn’t often used that way anymore.
I’m sort of curious why you won’t believe Catholics when they say, point blank, that they don’t worship saints and statues.
Please show me an act of praying that does not involve worship, still waiting…
Well, all Christians hold Paul and the great apostles and martyrs in high regard, or at least they should. They are great examples of faith and obedience.
I know that…
So, you won’t be asking fellow worshippers at your place of worship to pray for a sick friend because you can go directly to God yourself. The point here is, even though I don’t think those alive in Christ in heaven can hear prayer, I do understand that that is what Catholics are doing - asking for intercessory prayer.
yes its fine to ask people on this earth for intercessory prayer but when you say a “hail mary” you are talking to mary without seeing her, clearly you have a faith that she is hearing this otherwise you wouldnt say it therefore you are putting a faith in Mary that she will help in forgiving of your sins. tbh you should probably realize mary is probably in heaven and worshiping God nothing more…
Wow! For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Everytime I have sin, I have denied Christ. How fortunate your are.
Sinning is not saying “I dont know who Christ is”. That is its own sin, 1st commandment…Again point is that the apostles are to be honored but not to be even close to the same level as Christ. Christ is far supperior to all and all were made equally to be his insturnments
Of course, you probably have never faced the threat of crucifiction for professing you know Him.
You dont know what i go through…
Just wow.
Jon
but w/e
T
twopekinguys
Guest
Ah here come the snappy come backs…gotta love em. Especially when you are confronted with your own words, as has been shown to you from the beginning.
If you want to have a civil discussion on the thread, that is great, we are all for it. But your little snarky comments dilute your credibility.
You have been told that Catholics, and Orthodox do not worship statues or icons. What makes you think otherwise?
You have been told that the word “pray” can be used outside of a religous/worship context, why can’t you believe that?
Based on your comments so far, you are not interested in disussing as much as you are wanting to come in here and tell us how wrong we are.
I
ibetrippin07
Guest
I showed you a definitiion, provided a link, that clearly shows that “pray” can and was used toward people as meaning a sincere request. “I pray you, please hurry up.” Now, it isn’t often used that way anymore, but that doesn’t matter. “Gay” still means “happy”, even though it isn’t often used that way anymore.
I’m sort of curious why you won’t believe Catholics when they say, point blank, that they don’t worship saints and statues.
Well, all Christians hold Paul and the great apostles and martyrs in high regard, or at least they should. They are great examples of faith and obedience.
So, you won’t be asking fellow worshippers at your place of worship to pray for a sick friend because you can go directly to God yourself. The point here is, even though I don’t think those alive in Christ in heaven can hear prayer, I do understand that that is what Catholics are doing - asking for intercessory prayer.
Wow! For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Everytime I have sin, I have denied Christ. How fortunate your are.
Of course, you probably have never faced the threat of crucifixion for professing you know Him.
Just wow.
Jon
really? seems as far as your going your not more relevant to the topic than me? can we stay focused here?
I
ibetrippin07
Guest
you said “I pray you, please hurry up.” this is not the same as saying i pray to you, its old English that you are taking out of context. People used God in alot of their talk and language. This sentence is simply a short way of saying Im praying that you hurry up. in other words the person is figuratively praying to God that you hurry up! nothing more!
Already did.
No, they believe she will respond to one’s request by praying to God that He will forgive sins. They don’t believe Mary forgives sins. In the Hail Mary, they ask her to: “pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death”. It is a request that she pray to God for them. That you and I don’t believe that she can hear them does not change what they believe.
And if you have broken one commandment , you have broken them all.
Will will hear no argument on this.
You’re right, but I’m still guessing the threat of crucifixion isn’t one of them.
Agreed. Glad you recognize that Catholics, like the pope, do this.
Jon
T
twopekinguys
Guest
Well said Jon and Jharek.
You guys type faster than I do
You guys type faster than I do
I
ibetrippin07
Guest
listen thats fine I stand by what i said. Thats just how I feel. now if you can find in the scriptures something supporting a praying to apostles/mary to pray for you then i might become convinced until then we will simply go in circles on each others opinions…
Give me a few mins i will look up some scriptures relevant to the discussion. Use scriptures to back your opinions or dont waste the keyboard.
Give me a few mins i will look up some scriptures relevant to the discussion. Use scriptures to back your opinions or dont waste the keyboard.
You are exactly right. Some people might say I don’t have a dog in this hunt, and should let Catholics debate ibetrippin07. But the accusations he makes, if I don’t refute them, leads people to believe that he respresents all Protestants.
And frankly, be it Catholic or nonCatholic, I just don’t like this style of apologetics.
Jon
And frankly, be it Catholic or nonCatholic, I just don’t like this style of apologetics.
Jon
S
SemperReformada
Guest
Didn’t we just have a discussion about this yesterday?
Now, good. Make your point. Confess what you believe. Then listen to what others tell you what they believe. You’ll find CAF a much more enjoyable place that way.
Jon
T
twopekinguys
Guest
Ummmmm…Yep
Like the movie “Groundhog’s Day”
- Status