praying to virgin mary and the saints

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lol i dont mean like old 1500 english, i mean like old 1800 english
A word is only what it is defined as by the people at the time or the “context” I still frankly disagree with your interpretation. but that is a nice dig up of the Lords prayer:thumbsup:
For example
Rom 1:10
in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
NIV
“I pray you, please hurry up.”
Rom 1:10
in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
NIV

Eph 1:18-19
8 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe
NIV
“I pray you, please hurry up.”
Rom 1:10
in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
NIV

Eph 1:18-19
8 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe
NIV

3 John 2
Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well
NIV
ect ect.
In these cases as any other phrase used, they are clearly referring to praying to God.
“I pray you hurry” again is not saying in anyway “I pray to you to hurry”
 
JonNC said:
You are exactly right. Some people might say I don’t have a dog in this hunt, and should let Catholics debate ibetrippin07. But the accusations he makes, if I don’t refute them, leads people to believe that he respresents all Protestants.
And frankly, be it Catholic or nonCatholic, I just don’t like this style of apologetics.
Jon
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Jon, I really have to commend you.

You always offer a well balanced, and civil response in these discussions, and I always enjoy reading your responses.
 
ibetrippin07 said:
“I pray you hurry” again is not saying in anyway “I pray to you to hurry”
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Yes, it is. But that’s ok. Let’s use your definition.
A word is only what it is defined as by the people at the time or the “context”
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The people we are discussing are Catholics, and they define pray at this time, and in the **context **of invocation of saints, as making a request that said saints pray for them.
Chrstian charity requires that we believe what they tell us, even if we disagree with the practice.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Welcome to CAF. From a non-catholic Christian: Understanding that invocation and veneration of saints has a history, both east and west, back to the very early church, a non-accusatory, charitable, and honest understanding is required, that:
  • The rosary is meditative prayer, most of which is not to or about Mary.
  • In your church, do you ever ask others to pray for someone in need? That is what Catholics are doing when they ask for saints to pray from them. When one says Catholics “pray” to Mary, the usage of pray here is defined, “to ask or request ernestly”, and not the same as prayer to God.
  • Lutherans have staues and crucifixes and pictures of Jesus, and sometimes Mary and the saints, too. It is not a violation of scripture, as no one is worshipping these things. They are not idols.
  • There are no false idols in Catholicism. They pray to and believe in the same triune God that all Christians do.
Hope that helps from a Protestant perspective.

Jon
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Thanks to JonNC for his most charitable reply & excellent explanation.
I can only wish that most of my fellow Catholics in the pews could answer this as well as he did. Coming from a Lutheran (who obviously has taken the time to study his faith), his explanation is an example for all of us.

Having been Protestant half of my life, Mary was still a hold-out question for me for years after I became Catholic. I knew and respected her for her role in God’s plan, but I had absolutely no relationship with her.

Then some things happened in my life which led to a most profound conversion experience. To my utter amazement I met Mary squarely in the middle of my path to a real conversion for Christ. I can tell you I was not ready for it, did not expct it, and certainly did not WANT it. But there she was.
She’s been leading me to her Son ever since. Every day of my life. I do not profess to understand the relationship she has with Him, or why/how He pours His grace on her to bring to us. But I will say this, I can no longer deny that her prayers have some serious power.

So, I do pray to God in the Trinity, but I always ask the BVM to join me and intercede for my intentions.
From my own conversion, I know this: Sadly, some of the most beautiful things of the faith can only be known through personal experience. Until we get past our own agenda & really open ourselves up to ASK for His grace, we will never know what is possible.
Some things we learn so slowly.
+Peace,
Bob
 
Ok this is basically where i stand, I do not belive that saints/ mary can pray for anyone once they are dead, i belive that they are caught up into Heaven and are there to worship and give him praise forever and ever. I do not belive saints or any man for that matter can forgive you of your sins and also I do not belive that God has any other person creature or thing communicate between Him and man besides Christ and here is why…
Matt 6:6-8
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Here Jesus himself is telling you when you pray do it alone and pray to your father.

Matt 6:9-13
This, then, is how you should pray:

"'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
I know we are all aware of this one but i would like you all to note, the clear topic of prayer here is to Our Father in heaven. No saints nothing of that sort.

Acts 8:22-24
Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin." 24 Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.
Now here is a clear act of the apostles telling him to pray to the Lord. before you go and take the “pray to the Lord for me” thing out of control consider this, in the book of Job, God told his friends that unless Job prayed for them they would be screwed and so Job prayed for them so that they would be fine. This is all over the bible and in fact God does accept prayer for another person from a righteous person however he does not accept praying to a person to pray for them you see the difference? sorta? i hope so because this is a big point and if you dont quite understand it plz ask me to elaborate or else this will go in circles unnecessarily forever…

Acts 26:29
Paul replied, "Short time or long-I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.
Here Paul is praying that everyone would become as him, clearly Paul is not putting himself above anyone else, Paul is a very humble man. to think that Paul would want you to pray to him to pray to God just seems a little too far a stretch.

Rom 8:26-27
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.

the Spirit intercedes. we are saints and we are the church and the Spirit himself intercedes for us, I dont think it gets more clear than that.

Eph 2: 20 “Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the spirit”
maybe this one is a slight bit off the topic but nontheless, this is going back to the idea that all are part of the church or “holy temple” here. the apostles and prophets are the foundation, here they are likened to the same idea and so if thats the case why dont you pray to Abraham Isaiah Ezekiel or any of the OT prophets? We are all one in the same to bring one glory to God.

Eph 6:19-20
Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
If anything here is an example where the apostles ask for prayer which is quite the contrary to what you guys are trying to tell me.
Col 4:3-4
3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains. 4 Pray that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should.
1 Thess 5:25-26
Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss
another example of the above comment. theres several more showing the apostles wanted people to pray for them but im not going to be picky and put up EVERY scripture.

James 5:14-16
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
here James is referring to having people pray over and for you as in people who are still alive. nothing is mentioned about praying to anyone for prayer or anything like that. we are encouraged to pray for each other and are told again that a righteous mans prayer is effective as seen in Job and the scripture i mentioned above and several other places.

thats all iv got for now sorry for the length, happy diggin! look forward to a good scriptural response.
 
JonNC said:
Yes, it is. But that’s ok. Let’s use your definition.

The people we are discussing are Catholics, and they define pray at this time, and in the **context **of invocation of saints, as making a request that said saints pray for them.
Chrstian charity requires that we believe what they tell us, even if we disagree with the practice.

Jon
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no, the people we are discussing are the people in the bible and the people who said “i pray you…” at the time and what they meant not what you see them say and take it to mean.
 
ibetrippin07 said:
Ok this is basically where i stand, I do not belive that saints/ mary can pray for anyone once they are dead, i belive that they are caught up into Heaven and are there to worship and give him praise forever and ever. I do not belive saints or any man for that matter can forgive you of your sins and also I do not belive that God has any other person creature or thing communicate between Him and man besides Christ and here is why…
Matt 6:6-8
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Here Jesus himself is telling you when you pray do it alone and pray to your father.

Matt 6:9-13
This, then, is how you should pray:

"'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
I know we are all aware of this one but i would like you all to note, the clear topic of prayer here is to Our Father in heaven. No saints nothing of that sort.
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So you don’t believe that we should pray in groups/Churches?
Where do you go on Sunday to worship? Your bedroom?

Do you think Jesus was kidding when he gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or hold them bound (John 20:21-23)? **
What exactly do you think he meant?
 
ugh this is the last time i answer something frivolous and ridiculous like this.
CATHOLICS DONT SPEAK A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE THAN PROTESTANTS, YOUR NOT A SEPARATE RACE OF PEOPLE. ENGLISH IS ENGLISH, LATIN IS LATIN, GREEK IS GREEK.
no more on this i can stand how this is going on your guys head so easily
 
Im not replying to posts that clearly did not read all that i wrote just fyi :eek:
 
ibetrippin07 said:
I still insist that one show me where prayer would be used outside of a worshiping context.
I dont know if you mean something like yea i was at Jims the other day and we were “praying” as in talking back and forth to each other…
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Gabriel of 12;

Sure; Lawyers pray in court daily, in fact in most cases the defense attorney’s beg mercy to his “honor” or “your worship” when in Europe. Praying is part of the legal verbage used in court legal documents etc.
 
Elvisman you clearly did not finish reading what i wrote because in my writing i wrote that its ok to have people pray for you/over you… so i dunno what your talking about as far as John 20:21-23 I dont see what you mean. Clearly Jesus is referring to the idea of a person sinning against you and you forgive them then they are forgiven and if you retain the sins of any they are retained…
Matt 6:12
2 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors
Matt 12:31
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
2 Cor 2:10
If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven-if there was anything to forgive-I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake,
again forgiving people for what they have done to them
Matt 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins
I think John 20:21-23 elaborates well on Matt 6:14,15 dont you?
 
this parable really hits home on what John 20:21-23 is talking about
Matt 18:21-35
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 "Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
 
looks catholic to me and if i can recall you said it was a catholic sect…
this still has nothing to do with saints and mary being prayed to being scripturally correct or not…
goin afk for a few hours to mow the lawn, will be happy to comment back on stuff people feel like sharing
 
That’s exactly right. I think most Protestants, even those of the reformation era, might find that I bit over the top, and not entirely focused on Christ. I think it’s beautiful, but I’m certainly not typical of Protestants in that way.

Jon
 
ibetrippin07 said:
You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments

How can you read this and still pray to a saint/make statutes of Mary and pray to her? was it not anymore clear in the OT whenever the jews made themselves an idol or prayed to something other than God, they were punished severely. Technically speaking, if Christ rose and is in Heaven, mary died and is in heaven and the apostles died and went to heaven then why ignore this “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above” ???
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 Tim 2:5. IF you dont belive this scripture is relevant to the idea of praying to anything else for intercession besides Jesus then what was it doing there?😉
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Read all of the 202 posts that precede yours and you will be able to glean the Catholic position from several different contributors. In summary, we do not ignore the First Commandment (or Second Commandment if you recognize the different numbering). We do not make idols. We do not worship statues or saints. We recognize the saints as being present with Jesus Christ, and recognize that our God is the God of the living and that all christians are incorporated into His body and so are connected in Him spiritually. We believe that we can ask saints on earth and in heaven to intercede on our behalf with petitions of their own to God, in Christ, where we all reside. Catholic doctrine does not “ignore” any part of Scripture. Neither does it misinterpret scripture, but takes it as it finds it and conforms itself to what is being revealed, and what has been revealed to the Apostles and handed on by the Church from generation to generation. To suggest that Catholics are deceiving themselves by praying to saints is to betray your own lack of understanding about the Catholic position on prayers to (as distinguished from “worship of”) the saints.

Peace,
Robert
 
JonNC said:
That’s exactly right. I think most Protestants, even those of the reformation era, might find that I bit over the top, and not entirely focused on Christ. I think it’s beautiful, but I’m certainly not typical of Protestants in that way.

Jon
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before i afk i will say this
A church is not dependent on what it looks like the Smithson chapel is very beautiful and creds to those who make beautiful wonders to bring glory to God. But remember one thing that if a church is not Christ centered it is in no way Christian and being Christ centered is not reflected on a million paintings of Christ but the fruit of that church and its members. How that church behaves and how it serves the Kingdom of God to bring glory to it is how one can judge a church. A church like that could be holy but in all honesty it just seems like a lil too much for my taste like a woman who wears too much makeup, sometimes the women are more beautiful with it off and just being themselves. Same with churches if only people could see the same beauty in a shack of believers in the boondocks or ghettos is just as if not more than the church that try’s to look fancy on purpose. This is an entirely separate discussion that again has nothing to do with this topic but yes thats how i feel about church.
c ya in a few hrs
 
Robert_in_SD said:
Read all of the 202 posts that precede yours and you will be able to glean the Catholic position from several different contributors. In summary, we do not ignore the First Commandment (or Second Commandment if you recognize the different numbering). We do not make idols. We do not worship statues or saints. We recognize the saints as being present with Jesus Christ, and recognize that our God is the God of the living and that all christians are incorporated into His body and so are connected in Him spiritually. We believe that we can ask saints on earth and in heaven to intercede on our behalf with petitions of their own to God, in Christ, where we all reside. Catholic doctrine does not “ignore” any part of Scripture. Neither does it misinterpret scripture, but takes it as it finds it and conforms itself to what is being revealed, and what has been revealed to the Apostles and handed on by the Church from generation to generation. To suggest that Catholics are deceiving themselves by praying to saints is to betray your own lack of understanding about the Catholic position on prayers to (as distinguished from “worship of”) the saints.

Peace,
Robert
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thats cool man too bad you didnt read posts number
247 and 255
bbl peace
 
Incredible response. Brought chills up my spine.

It could be said that the gates of Hell could not prevail…

Thanks, you made my day,
Jon

EDIT: BTW, our church has a beautiful, large crucifix that hangs from the ceiling over the altar.
 
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