praying to virgin mary and the saints

[JonNC]

=Bob4BVM;5425498]Sorry Jon, I did not mean to generalize, but I see that I did. Yes, the many Lutherans I know generally have a great respect for the Eucharist. (Not sure about where the LCMS stands on this, I’ve have some of them challenge me on it).

No need to apologize. As I said, it was a good post. I’m LCMS, and I’d be real interested in hearing on what points of the EUcharist my brothers and sisters may have challenged you.

A healthy devotion (NOT worship ! ) to the BVM is encouraged by the RCC, but is certainly not a requirement. For me, Mary was the last brick in the wall of my fully accepting everything in the RCC. I guess I respected her , but I was always uneasy when they mentioned her in a Mass or something, and hearing the Rosary said kind of bugged me, as well…
…It is my hope that all Christians, all people of faith for that matter, might someday recognize her as the Mother of us all, given to us by Jesus at Calvary.

Mariology, IMHO, should not be church dividing. We need to dialogue on this issue and begin to grow a greater respect for each other’s piety regarding the BVM.

I wish you the Peace of Christ

And also with you,
Jon

 

[fbl9]

The book of Proverbs 10:7" The memory of the just will be blessed, the name of the wicked will rot." Can any one (other than John nc) tell us how the memory of the just is blessed.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

We had no Rosary at the time of the Bible…Jesus give the Keys to heaven to Peter its called Apostolic SUCCESSION,NON-CATHLOICS DO NOT HAVE IT.

Well, Orthodox are non-catholics, and they DO have apostolic succession. They have vaild sacraments. They don’t hold the pope as infallible, they don’t entertain indulgences, the rosary, and they don’t believe in purgatory.

So, here we have a church that is NOT the catholic church, has valid orders and sacraments, and most importantly apostolic succession.

Hmmmm… so where does that leave someone listening to catholics who claim they are the one and only church founded by Christ Himself???

 

[Zooey]

You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments

How can you read this and still pray to a saint/make statutes of Mary and pray to her? was it not anymore clear in the OT whenever the jews made themselves an idol or prayed to something other than God, they were punished severely. Technically speaking, if Christ rose and is in Heaven, mary died and is in heaven and the apostles died and went to heaven then why ignore this “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above” ???
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 Tim 2:5. IF you dont belive this scripture is relevant to the idea of praying to anything else for intercession besides Jesus then what was it doing there?

As a non-catholic, I see no evidence that Catholics or Orthodox violate the 1st commandment. I think it is the second council of Nicea that deals with iconoclasm.

Please explain your definition of prayer.

Does the Lincoln Memorial violate this?

So, you have never asked someone to pray a prayer for someone else to get well?

The argument you make here, and more, the tone in which you make it, is more convincing that Catholics are right on this issue than their’s are.

Jon

dictionary.reference.com/browse/pray

In other words, prayer can also be directed to persons, as it also means to ask. That is the form of prayer one is talking about here - a request, the same kind of prayer/request as when you ask someone to pray for a loved-one.

Exactly, and neither is a statue of the Virgin Mary worshipped.

What will we be praying about? Do you think we will be praying for the well-being of those who are on earth?

Hate? How did I show hate to anyone? How you type is irrelevent. What you typed was my concern. Understand what they do with statues (they don’t worship them). Understand what they mean by prayer to saints (it isn’t prayer like we all do to God). Before you criticize.
This has been a reasonably charitable thread, and I would prefer it stays that way.
Jon

Thank you, Jon!!

Please explain to me where else i would use “prayer” outside of worship… THEN we could argue if there’s a difference between prayer and adoration…

I still insist that one show me where prayer would be used outside of a worshiping context.
I dont know if you mean something like yea i was at Jims the other day and we were “praying” as in talking back and forth to each other…

however the main point with the statutes is that the saints, and mary, that you pray to (which btw im still waiting on a way to use prayer outside of a religious or worshipping sense…) you are putting them on a high pedestal even though they themselves were put on a low pedestal from thier own writings

Well, since you ask:
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prithee which leads us to:
bartleby.com/101/327.html
clicknotes.com/macbeth/T34.html
thinkexist.com/quotation/break-heart-i-prithee-break/530234.html

And then we have:

I am His Highness’ dog at Kew; Pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you? — Alexander Pope

---

Note #4, #5, also the list of synonyms at:

**dictionary.reference.com/browse/pray **

I take it that Shakespeare can be cited as a perfectly secular use? Not to mention Alexander Pope & the wee doggie?? Despite his:wink: surname??)

ibetrippin07:

Jesus even called Mary “woman” you ever call your mother that in a respectful fashion? dont think so…

Why, yes!!
For you see, when you do your homework, you find that “woman” here is used as the equivalent of “ma’am”, & I have said “Yes, ma’am, whatever you say” to my dear mother many times…especially when she was my:tada: high school English teacher!!

 

[Zooey]

I showed you a definitiion, provided a link, that clearly shows that “pray” can and was used toward people as meaning a sincere request. “I pray you, please hurry up.” Now, it isn’t often used that way anymore, but that doesn’t matter. “Gay” still means “happy”, even though it isn’t often used that way anymore.
I’m sort of curious why you won’t believe Catholics when they say, point blank, that they don’t worship saints and statues.

Well, all Christians hold Paul and the great apostles and martyrs in high regard, or at least they should. They are great examples of faith and obedience.

So, you won’t be asking fellow worshippers at your place of worship to pray for a sick friend because you can go directly to God yourself. The point here is, even though I don’t think those alive in Christ in heaven can hear prayer, I do understand that that is what Catholics are doing - asking for intercessory prayer.

Wow! For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Everytime I have sin, I have denied Christ. How fortunate your are.
Of course, you probably have never faced the threat of crucifixion for professing you know Him.

Just wow.

Jon

http://bestsmileys.com/hugging/4.gif

:sad_yes:

You are exactly right. Some people might say I don’t have a dog in this hunt, and should let Catholics debate ibetrippin07. But the accusations he makes, if I don’t refute them, leads people to believe that he respresents all Protestants.
And frankly, be it Catholic or nonCatholic, I just don’t like this style of apologetics.
Jon

Yes, it is. But that’s ok. Let’s use your definition.

The people we are discussing are Catholics, and they define pray at this time, and in the **context **of invocation of saints, as making a request that said saints pray for them.
Chrstian charity requires that we believe what they tell us, even if we disagree with the practice.

Jon

Gabriel of 12;

Sure; Lawyers pray in court daily, in fact in most cases the defense attorney’s beg mercy to his “honor” or “your worship” when in Europe. Praying is part of the legal verbage used in court legal documents etc.

And you know what? I looked at that picture, and I didn’t give a rap what “brand name” was on it…All I wanted was to :crying:“fall on my knees and cry ‘Holy! Holy Holy’ to the Lamb of God.”:byzsoc:
I know when I see real love for Our Lord, and that church has it. In spades.

 

[Zooey]

http://bestsmileys.com/crying/12.gif http://bestsmileys.com/crying/12.gif"And I looked, and behold! A great multitude whom no one could number…" "One of the elders said to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from? And I said, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are those who have passed through great tribulation,and come out, and washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb”.:byzsoc::byzsoc:

Incredible response. Brought chills up my spine.

It could be said that the gates of Hell could not prevail…

Thanks, you made my day,
Jon

JonNC:

EDIT: BTW, our church has a beautiful, large crucifix that hangs from the ceiling over the altar.

We have three wonderful tapestries, one of Christ, one of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and one of the Last Supper.
I had the privilege of working some of the stitches in the Last Supper, at the home of my dear friend Phyllis, who has since gone on to meet Our Lord.
We had one person–just one–who objected to having Mary there…It was hung downstairs, in the fellowship hall. She said, “Anywhere but there!”…and my pastor said, “Anywhere? All right, we can do that”…and so we put that beautiful face of the Mother of Christ right in the front entrance where every single person who walks into the church can see…and everyone says what an inspiration it is, to “come in a church that looks like a church”.

 

[freedomwriter]

Excuse me. But your other friend could not answer my question maybe you can. Can you explain to me why GOD COMMANDED to make angels. Ex. 25:18-20. I asked this question earlier and it was totally ignored. So maybe you can answer it.

Now if we are going to condemn lets all go to hell together. Many and I mean MANY PROTESTANT Church’s have a three dimensional nativity scene at Christmas time. Please do not tell me you don’t I have seen them. And if we Catholics have to PROVE our point all we have to do is visit every protestant church we see and take pictures. But this is not necessary because protestants know its true.

So now we are in the same boat, lets at least be measured by the same rule. So please do not accuse Catholic’s of something you yourself do. My husband belonged to a protestant church and there is a picture of Jesus in the church? Whats up with that.

Because there is no idolatry going on in these situations. God FORBIDS the WORSHIP of images as Gods. He does not ban the making of images. You guys better go back and read the bible, and then check out your own church. THen you can throw stones. Did you ever watch a religious movie, look at a painting of Jesus, Then if you did you are doing the same thing as you accuse us of. SO it looks to me like we are all going to hell then. According to your teaching.

You better wake up and watch the stones you are throwing. God never forbid the making of religious images. He forbided the worshiping of them. You tell me is a Statue of Jesus Christ a false image? When you see a Statue of Jesus Christ do you deny that he is the Son of GOd? Well sorry we don’t. Maybe you deny Jesus I don’t know. But if you don’t then how can you say that a statue of him is a false image? Did Jesus Christ not reveal himself as the image of Man. And did the Blessed Mother not reveal herself as a Women? Now you answer my questions. Do you believe that the Blessed Mother was a women and Jesus Christ as a Man. When a Catholic prays in front of a Statue they know who they are praying to GOD UP ABOVE. They know that statue is a reminder and not God himself. That is indeed what you are accusing us of!

You are right in that no one was praying or worshipping the cherubim. The problem that Protestants have is the forbidden prayer to anyone else but to Christ Himself. Many catholics pray to mary or to others when we should be praying to Christ alone. Hope this helps.

 

[JonNC]

You are right in that no one was praying or worshipping the cherubim. The problem that Protestants have is the forbidden prayer to anyone else but to Christ Himself. Many catholics pray to mary or to others when we should be praying to Christ alone. Hope this helps.

Check my post #244.

There and in other posts on this thread the distinction has been clearly made that the type of “prayer” to Mary and the saints is simply requests for intercession. It is not prayer in the sense that we all use to go to God.
Continually repeating, after continually being corrected, that Catholics pray to Mary in a way that is reserved for our Lord, starts to appear uncharitable.

Jon

 

[murtad]

Catholics pray the rosary and recite prayers to Virgin Mary. Also, Catholics pray to the saints. Another thing, catholics also use statues of the saints, Virgin Mary, and of Jesus. But dosent’ this contradict what the bible says? Instead of praying to Mary and the saints for help, why not just pray to God? And why have false idols?

Why are you engrossed about Catholics praying to saints, when even Muslims pray to Mohamed by adding the words S.A.W. after his name!?

You need to discriminate between Prayer and Worship. The former refers to intercession, while the latter is for God only.

In book of Romans Chapter 16, Verse 6, Saint Paul commands us “Pray to Virgin Mary, who has worked hard among you”.

In conclusion, prayer to saints is Biblical and all Christians must do it.

 

[SemperReformada]

Why are you engrossed about Catholics praying to saints, when even Muslims pray to Mohamed by adding the words S.A.W. after his name!?

You need to discriminate between Prayer and Worship. The former refers to intercession, while the latter is for God only.

In book of Romans Chapter 16, Verse 6, Saint Paul commands us “Pray to Virgin Mary, who has worked hard among you”.

In conclusion, prayer to saints is Biblical and all Christians must do it.

Romans 16 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 16:6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.

Romans 16 (Douay Rheims)
16:6 Salute Mary, who hath laboured much among you.

I don’t know exactly which translation you are using but…I don’t get it.

Anyway, to say that prayer to the saints is biblical it appears that you force an inference on the texts that just simply isn’t there. If you want to claim tradition leads you down this path that’s one thing but if you choose to pray to the saints in heaven it certainly isn’t based on anything found within the scriptures.

 

[JonNC]

Why are you engrossed about Catholics praying to saints, when even Muslims pray to Mohamed by adding the words S.A.W. after his name!?

You need to discriminate between Prayer and Worship. The former refers to intercession, while the latter is for God only.

In book of Romans Chapter 16, Verse 6, Saint Paul commands us “Pray to Virgin Mary, who has worked hard among you”.

In conclusion, prayer to saints is Biblical and all Christians must do it.

Two comments,

No translation that I know of says “Pray to Mary…”
bible.cc/romans/16-6.htm
Douay-Rheims Bible says:
“Salute Mary, who hath laboured much among you.”
and the NAB on the USCCB website says:
“Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.”

Paul is sending a greeting (“Tell Mary I said hi”), not telling us request intercessory prayer of her.

I’ve never heard the contention that Chrstians must pray to her, only that the Catholic Church strongly encourages it.

Jon

 

[freedomwriter]

Check my post #244.

There and in other posts on this thread the distinction has been clearly made that the type of “prayer” to Mary and the saints is simply requests for intercession. It is not prayer in the sense that we all use to go to God.
Continually repeating, after continually being corrected, that Catholics pray to Mary in a way that is reserved for our Lord, starts to appear uncharitable.

Jon

Then the question begins with why pray to mary if the Word of God says that there is mediator between God and man that being Christ.

 

[JonNC]

Then the question begins with why pray to mary if the Word of God says that there is mediator between God and man that being Christ.

For the exact same reason that you or I or anyone would ask our fellow Christians to pray for us or a sick loved-one. It is a request for intercession. When I pray for my niece who has Crones, it is intercessory prayer. I am asking Christ to intercede with her.

Now I’m not convinced that those in heaven can hear our individual requestsd for intercession, though scripture says that those who are in heaven (Church Triumphant) pray for us the Church Militant in a general sense. But Catholics believe they can, and they ask them to pray to God for them or their loved ones. That is all they are doing.

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Then the question begins with why pray to mary if the Word of God says that there is mediator between God and man that being Christ.

Gabriel of 12;

Because no one goes to the Father except through Jesus, and the one way Jesus comes to you is through his Blessed Virgin Mother Mary. Mary is the one who has brought Jesus to both hemispheres of the World whether you accept it or not, history and fact still remains that Jesus comes to us Through a Virgin Mary, this is also supported by the Hebrew Prophets of which Jesus fulfilled.

Grasping this mystery, and having a biblical understanding of the Communion of Saints which reveals that Catholics worship the one True God of the living not the dead. I am beginning to understand from reading these non catholic posts about biblical Apostolic Catholic Sacred Tradition and Apostolic biblical interpretation, that they truly have not experienced the "parousia’ because these are lacking a biblical liturgy.

They have a first century misunderstanding of the spiritual biblical understanding of liturgy and Parousia of Jesus Christ and or they have not been informed correctly about the Apostolic Catholic Faith. I dont think arguing against these unchangable Apostolic Catholic doctrines is going to change them because these revealed apostolic doctrines are set in stone “Rock”.

I can see that a 19th century biblical understanding (interpretation) confused with Catholic Christian foundational teaching mixed with anti-catholic sentiments becomes a stumbling block to the Living sacrificial Jesus Christ. Who reveals himself to his body the Catholic church. I dont understand what is the purpose of rejecting truth when they have not experienced the Truth from the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic Church.

Ones 19th century interpretation of scripture does not hold up to biblical revelation from antiquity from both Hebrew and Catholic biblical interpretation. The wind of doctrine does not carry any weight for argument, except to ask the question why? not reject Truth because someone too late in time to protest what is set in stone comes along to protest the “Rock” Jesus built.

Iam learning alot from the non catholics who appear to be arguing from a missing Truth about Jesus Christ himself from his “parousia”. Coming to a biblical understanding from a Hebrew/ Catholic position of Liturgy and parousia, one can only find in the Catholic Church until Jesus returns for his bride. But this maybe getting off topic.

 

[freedomwriter]

Check my post #244.

There and in other posts on this thread the distinction has been clearly made that the type of “prayer” to Mary and the saints is simply requests for intercession. It is not prayer in the sense that we all use to go to God.
Continually repeating, after continually being corrected, that Catholics pray to Mary in a way that is reserved for our Lord, starts to appear uncharitable.

Jon

Where do you find this in Scripture? And why pray to mary when she can not intercede for anyone. Also prayer is a form of worship and we are not to worship anyone else but God.

 

[freedomwriter]

Gabriel of 12;

Because no one goes to the Father except through Jesus, and the one way Jesus comes to you is through his Blessed Virgin Mother Mary. Mary is the one who has brought Jesus to both hemispheres of the World whether you accept it or not, history and fact still remains that Jesus comes to us Through a Virgin Mary, this is also supported by the Hebrew Prophets of which Jesus fulfilled.

Grasping this mystery, and having a biblical understanding of the Communion of Saints which reveals that Catholics worship the one True God of the living not the dead. I am beginning to understand from reading these non catholic posts about biblical Apostolic Catholic Sacred Tradition and Apostolic biblical interpretation, that they truly have not experienced the "parousia’ because these are lacking a biblical liturgy.

They have a first century misunderstanding of the spiritual biblical understanding of liturgy and Parousia of Jesus Christ and or they have not been informed correctly about the Apostolic Catholic Faith. I dont think arguing against these unchangable Apostolic Catholic doctrines is going to change them because these revealed apostolic doctrines are set in stone “Rock”.

I can see that a 19th century biblical understanding (interpretation) confused with Catholic Christian foundational teaching mixed with anti-catholic sentiments becomes a stumbling block to the Living sacrificial Jesus Christ. Who reveals himself to his body the Catholic church. I dont understand what is the purpose of rejecting truth when they have not experienced the Truth from the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic Church.

Ones 19th century interpretation of scripture does not hold up to biblical revelation from antiquity from both Hebrew and Catholic biblical interpretation. The wind of doctrine does not carry any weight for argument, except to ask the question why? not reject Truth because someone too late in time to protest what is set in stone comes along to protest the “Rock” Jesus built.

Iam learning alot from the non catholics who appear to be arguing from a missing Truth about Jesus Christ himself from his “parousia”. Coming to a biblical understanding from a Hebrew/ Catholic position of Liturgy and parousia, one can only find in the Catholic Church until Jesus returns for his bride. But this maybe getting off topic.

Could you please provide scripture. Thanks

 

[JonNC]

Where do you find this in Scripture? And why pray to mary when she can not intercede for anyone.

Where do I find what in scripture? If you are asking me to defend the practice, I will leave that to those practice it - Gabriel of 12 and others have done quite a good job of doing so already. I am simply trying to defend a proper understanding of it. If we are going to disagree with invocation of saints, we have an obligation to understand it.

Also prayer is a form of worship and we are not to worship anyone else but God

See post #209 and a few others in this thread that document the fact that prayer is not always a form of worship. One post mentioned the use of the term prayer in courtrooms. So, again, we must understand the usage of terms in order to challenge the practice. Listen to what Catholics tell you about the belief, then challenge it. It’s useless, and frankly looks silly, to accuse them of believing something they don’t believe.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The book of Proverbs 10:7" The memory of the just will be blessed, the name of the wicked will rot." Can any one (other than John nc) tell us how the memory of the just is blessed.

Nice signature, man! A little “Dio!” lol

 

[Bill_Pick]

Where do I find what in scripture? If you are asking me to defend the practice, I will leave that to those practice it - Gabriel of 12 and others have done quite a good job of doing so already. I am simply trying to defend a proper understanding of it. If we are going to disagree with invocation of saints, we have an obligation to understand it.

See post #209 and a few others in this thread that document the fact that prayer is not always a form of worship. One post mentioned the use of the term prayer in courtrooms. So, again, we must understand the usage of terms in order to challenge the practice. Listen to what Catholics tell you about the belief, then challenge it. It’s useless, and frankly looks silly, to accuse them of believing something they don’t believe.

Jon

If you are going to defend a Bible verse dont you need to get both side or do you just like to get one side,so why are you on a Cathloic board,Are you not looking for the truth or here just to bash Cathloics

 

[Bill_Pick]

fb9 I went back and look at post (I think it was 209) and it was a very good post and I can see you are not looking for the truth and you have been very rude , You are not being very good Christian and are giving a bad name to christians I hope you change in time and become more repectful to people, May Our Lord bless you and your…