praying with non-Catholics

[ctos]

In a January 2007 “U.S. Catholic” article, Bob Smietana effectively urges Catholics to pray with non-Catholics:

“There is also danger in praying together. Some Christian groups have in the past forbidden their members from praying with outsiders. … There is more danger, however, in not praying. When we don’t pray together, when we only pray with those who are “good enough,” when we don’t acknowledge that our standing before God is grace, we become afraid of God’s mercy. We stop believing in grace.”

He also says that to become one: “Begin by seeing our fellow Christians as companions rather than competitors.”

He suggests taking meals together:

“Eating together also can erase boundaries. … Jesus understood the power of eating together and often was criticized during his earthly ministry for sitting at table with the wrong kind of people.”

I find these comparisons with Our Lord rather worrying. In the same issue Bryan Cones is critical of closed Communion:

Unfortunately we have just seen some further additions to the list of who can’t receive Communion, and on it will be no small number of Catholics. A document approved by the U.S. bishops at their November meeting discourages from Communion those who “knowingly and obstinately” reject “the defined doctrines of the church” or its “definitive teaching on moral issues.” … In our attempt to protect the defenseless eucharistic Jesus from sinners, we inevitably drive away the very people Jesus spent his time with.

Even from the earliest days of the Church, adherence to the teachings was a requirement. Pre-baptism education was rather lengthy, from what I understand.

But what about this praying with non-Catholics? This idea makes me shudder. It makes me shudder because the non-Catholic simply doesn’t understand what he’s doing. And I’m being lumped in with what he’s doing. What’s really scary is that one day I want to apply for entry into the seminary. I’m very nervous that they’re going to make me do this kind of thing routinely or accept it in principle. How should I understand ‘praying with non-Catholics’? To do that effectively makes faith a purely personal matter, something psychological, and makes “praying” into an exterior on which point we are supposedly all identical. I feel that when the Catholic prays with the non-Catholic, he imagines himself to be on a higher plane of truth, but in fact is degrading himself and should really be having pity and mercy for the unbeliever, and doing everything possible to tell him the Truth.

 

[Tonks40]

I have no qualms about praying with non-Catholics. I’ve done at meals, for special petitions, etc. Of course, I’m the only one who makes a Sign of the Cross at the end of the prayer (if it’s a prayer that signifies an overall good) .

 

[conan025]

By far, the best apologetic for our Protestant brothers and sisters is to show them Catholics who love Jesus and know their faith. This kind of personal interaction will do more than anything else to break down those remaining prejudices. I should know, that’s what began to change the mind of this former Lutheran.

 

[O.S.Luke]

In retreat settings where Catholics and Protestants are present, we always celebrate the prayer offices, since a daily eucharist would split the retreat in half.

Christians won’t pray with other Christians? How absurd… and possibly detrimental to one’s soul.

As far a “closed communion” (an oxymoron, at best)… it is the height of arrogance to think that Jesus and the Eucharist needs our protection - as if!!!

In my opinion, of course.

O+

 

[gcnuss]

You might find this interesting, a quote from A Covenant Between the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Northwestern Ohio Synod and the Roman Catholic Church, Diocese of Toledo:

With confidence in the power of th Holy Spirit and the coming of the Reign of God, we dedicate ourselves to prayer, study and action.
I. United in prayer we will:

• Pray for each other as we celebrate the Eucharist in our respective communions…;
• Develop opportunities for joint groups of Luthean Christians and Catholic Christians to share in prayer and reflection on the Holy Scriptures;
• Continue to encourage joint observances such as Thanksgiving, the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, the World Day of Prayer, Lenten devotions, …;

This only a portion of the whole document, but it gives an idea of the ways in which we can reach out to each other to celebrate what we share.

 

[ctos]

By far, the best apologetic for our Protestant brothers and sisters is to show them Catholics who love Jesus and know their faith. This kind of personal interaction will do more than anything else to break down those remaining prejudices. I should know, that’s what began to change the mind of this former Lutheran.

This is very interesting. If you can elaborate at all I would be grateful. I guess I can sense what you mean about personal interaction and knowing our faith, but, is “remaining prejudices” really an accurate expression? I’m not trying to bait you or anything, not at all. It is my understanding that it is not a question of Lutherans erroneously pre-judging the Catholic faith or vice-versa. Rather, Catholics correctly judge what Lutherans believe, and Lutherans incorrectly judge what Catholics believe. Perhaps if you can explain more fully what you are talking about, I can begin to create a model for it in my mind that I can build on and use in accordance with the mind of the Church. I find this aspect very confusing. All help appreciated.

 

[ctos]

In retreat settings where Catholics and Protestants are present, we always celebrate the prayer offices, since a daily eucharist would split the retreat in half.

Christians won’t pray with other Christians? How absurd… and possibly detrimental to one’s soul.

As far a “closed communion” (an oxymoron, at best)… it is the height of arrogance to think that Jesus and the Eucharist needs our protection - as if!!!

In my opinion, of course.

O+

With respect, I find this kind of viewpoint rather worrying, and terrifying that I should be forced to enter into it. I can’t even tell what faith you proclaim. Perhaps your signature manifests that you are a Methodist; Methodists don’t believe in closed communion. That is, they don’t believe in requiring adherence to the doctrines of faith prior to receiving communion. I think the Church, from the very beginnings, has required assent to the faith prior to permitting reception of Communion–and that was real Communion from presbyters or bishops anointed from the Apostles.

What do you mean, “daily eucharist would split the retreat in half”? Do you mean, you are involved in ecumenical retreats in which Catholics and Protestants engage together in various prayers, but without Mass (for Catholics)?

 

[ctos]

Any help teaching me how to pray with non-Catholics would be much appreciated. Thank you very much. I know that this issue will come up in the future, and I have to get my head around it.

 

[ABostonCatholic]

Praying with non-Catholic is such a broad topic.

Since most of my family is Baptist, I pray with them all the times, especially at meals. Baptists tend to pray spontaneously in prayers of praise and supplication. Very little theology goes into their prayers, so you’ll rarely (I think) be in a situation where you shouldn’t unite your prayers with theirs.

The dangers your run into in general are no different than when praying with Catholics. So if you’re praying with a Baptist who prays for “protection of a woman’s right to choose” it’s just as wrong for us to unite ourselves to that prayer as if they are a Catholic (I’m always afraid someone is going to pray for that in masses where they let the people shout out prayers!)

I’ve also prayed with Episcopals during their evening prayer, which is very similar to Catholic’s, so I felt comfortable.

I’ve never prayed with a non-Christian, but that can be acceptable, too, at times.

What’s important to remember about prayer is that ANYONE and EVERYONE can talk to God. So why can’t/shouldn’t we, as Catholics, talk to Him with them?

 

[Orionthehunter]

In retreat settings where Catholics and Protestants are present, we always celebrate the prayer offices, since a daily eucharist would split the retreat in half.

Christians won’t pray with other Christians? How absurd… and possibly detrimental to one’s soul.

As far a “closed communion” (an oxymoron, at best)… it is the height of arrogance to think that Jesus and the Eucharist needs our protection - as if!!!

In my opinion, of course.

O+

OS, my friend (I hope I can call you that even though I only know you through your usually very thoughtful and charitable posts), you miss the point of closed communion in the Catholic Church.

In the Catholic Church, the Eucharist is defined by the Church (individuals no matter their sincerity don’t get to define it as they interpret scriptures or as they “believe it should be”). In addition to being an actual “communion” with Christ and His universal flock and a sacramental expression of thanksgiving, sacrifice, and the presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, the Eucharist is an expression of unity in the belief in the Deposit of Faith entrusted to the Church.

My friend, while always welcome to join us during the Mass to pray with us, unless you become Catholic, you are unable to come into our church and fully express unity with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Why would you want to lie and lead others to believe you assent to the teachings of the Church? If I was in a Jewish temple for a ceremony of a friend or relative, why would I want to recite a prayer or otherwise participate in something that is restricted to Jews?

I often go to service in Protestant churches for funerals, weddings, baptisms and other reasons that revolve around friends and family. I love you as a brother in Christ and I celebrate what joins us and we hold in common. But, despite an invitation to participate in Communion at these services, I won’t as it would pretend that what separates us is insignificant or irrelevant and to do so would be a lie for me. Because I sincerely believe what separates us is real and painful, it insults me when you find it insignificant or call it arrogance.

Pastor Luke, with affection and sincerity, I hope you understand why I find it disingenuous and insulting and you will respect my beliefs and what my faith teaches. At the same time, I applaud you for your participation in ecumenical retreats, etc. There is a time and place for us to be together in prayer and fellowship in celebration of what unites us (Jesus Christ). The Catholic Mass just isn’t the place.

 

[conan025]

This is very interesting. If you can elaborate at all I would be grateful. I guess I can sense what you mean about personal interaction and knowing our faith, but, is “remaining prejudices” really an accurate expression? I’m not trying to bait you or anything, not at all. It is my understanding that it is not a question of Lutherans erroneously pre-judging the Catholic faith or vice-versa. Rather, Catholics correctly judge what Lutherans believe, and Lutherans incorrectly judge what Catholics believe. Perhaps if you can explain more fully what you are talking about, I can begin to create a model for it in my mind that I can build on and use in accordance with the mind of the Church. I find this aspect very confusing. All help appreciated.

My point is that personal interaction with Catholics who know their faith can go a long way to dispelling these misconceptions that others have. I think back to those Catholics who were in my college Campus Crusade group, for example. Granted, this is not for everyone, and there may be doctrinal risks, as others have noted. It is our calling, however, to build bridges with others, affirming whatever can be affirmed.

It can take years to see results. Ever since my own college experience, Catholic-bashing has been something I can’t stand. I always felt the need to set the record straight when I heard someone attacking the Church. This year, I’m finally in R.C.I.A.

 

[catsrus]

Every single person (protestant or “other”) with whom I’ve ever discussed religion, has ALWAYS complained about our “closed communion”.
I have explained in simplistic terms and usually just get a “hummmph!”
I’ve become so tired of explaining…

 

[conan025]

The Lutheran Church-Missouris Synod I grew up in has the same policy. It never made sense to me, either. It seemed so narrow and legalistic, until I realized it has always been the position of the Church. See Justin Martyr, for example. It is also the practice of the Orthodox churches.

Even Catholics, of course, should not receive the Eucharist if they are unprepared.

 

[O.S.Luke]

With respect, I find this kind of viewpoint rather worrying, and terrifying that I should be forced to enter into it. I can’t even tell what faith you proclaim. Perhaps your signature manifests that you are a Methodist; Methodists don’t believe in closed communion. That is, they don’t believe in requiring adherence to the doctrines of faith prior to receiving communion. I think the Church, from the very beginnings, has required assent to the faith prior to permitting reception of Communion–and that was real Communion from presbyters or bishops anointed from the Apostles.

Nobody is forcing you into it.

My faith proclaims the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds. And the following invitation is given (from the liturgy):

Christ our Lord invites to His table all who love him, who earnestly repent of their sin and seek to live in peace with each other. Therefore, let us confess our sin before God and one another: [prayer of confession, pardon, and peace].

It’s not the United Methodist’s Eucharist… it is Christ’s.

What do you mean, “daily eucharist would split the retreat in half”? Do you mean, you are involved in ecumenical retreats in which Catholics and Protestants engage together in various prayers, but without Mass (for Catholics)?

Yes. We usually follow the canonical hours, but no Mass or Eucharist/Holy Communion. We have from time to time practiced a love feast (from the Moravian tradition).

We non-Catholics don’t like putting priests on the spot regarding Mass… although, more often than not, this upsets the priests more than it does the non-Catholics.

O+

 

[O.S.Luke]

OS, my friend (I hope I can call you that even though I only know you through your usually very thoughtful and charitable posts), you miss the point of closed communion in the Catholic Church.

I know the point all too well, my friend. But you are kind to offer explanation.

Because I sincerely believe what separates us is real and painful, it insults me when you find it insignificant or call it arrogance.

I can’t see Jesus refusing anyone at the table. If Peter (who denied Him) and Judas (who betrayed Him) were served, how can I not serve a professing Christian? To me, that is an insult to the sacrament - denying a means of grace. I’ve studied sacramental theology and church history all of my life. I fear the separations of Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants are very grieving to God.

The Catholic Mass just isn’t the place.

Jesus is truly present. How could we refuse to offer Him to the very people who need him?

We’ll disagree, my friend. I hope charitably.

Pax vobiscum,

O+

 

[homewardbound]

Every single person (protestant or “other”) with whom I’ve ever discussed religion, has ALWAYS complained about our “closed communion”.
I have explained in simplistic terms and usually just get a “hummmph!”
I’ve become so tired of explaining…

I don’t get why they would complain. All Protestant churches I’ve been to will not allow non-members to partake in communion.

 

[ctos]

I can’t see Jesus refusing anyone at the table. If Peter (who denied Him) and Judas (who betrayed Him) were served,

Ah: but Judas betrayed Him after receiving Communion.

From the earliest times of the Church people were excommunicated for their sins, much as a child might be dismissed from table for bad behavior, only as a punishment that they might contemplate their sins and come back with contrition.

Anyway:

Your posts have helped me. I feel especially aided by ABostonCatholic’s post. I wonder if we could expand it a little. What about liturgical settings. For example, what about a Catholic priest and a Protestant minister. What may they do together?

 

[homewardbound]

Jesus is truly present. How could we refuse to offer Him to the very people who need him?

It would be a great insult to God to offer His Body and Blood to those who do not believe it is anything but a symbol. Anyone who partakes in the Eucharist and doesn’t believe in the Real Presence can’t possibly get anything from it, except to be greatly offending to God.

 

[O.S.Luke]

It would be a great insult to God to offer His Body and Blood to those who do not believe it is anything but a symbol. Anyone who partakes in the Eucharist and doesn’t believe in the Real Presence can’t possibly get anything from it, except to be greatly offending to God.

What about those who DO believe in the Real Presence? My tradition does.

 

[ctos]

What about those who DO believe in the Real Presence? My tradition does.

Oh come on you’re just using words. That’s really what bothers me about praying with non-Catholics. They try to use the same words, but they don’t know the meaning, and I worry that by being in the same prayer with them I’m effectively contributing to their ignorance, or serving as an occasion of their sin. OTOH, ABC has suggested that anyone can talk to God, even praying with “Catholics” can be risky, and as long as what we are praying for is acceptable and as long as our prayer does not manifest a heresy, it’s okay.