Pre-Cana Class Rant

[Debora123]

I don’t think the TLM or has anything to do with the subject at hand. However, the language is not incomprehensible.
Why would you suggest that?

She/he suggested it because unless you specifically take Latin classes to learn how to speak the language, you’re not going to understand what they are saying in a Latin mass.

 

[russet1]

She/he suggested it because unless you specifically take Latin classes to learn how to speak the language, you’re not going to understand what they are saying in a Latin mass.

That does not mean it is incomprehensible. It just means that SOME people have not learned it. Which I guess is the same for EVERY language on earth.

 

[Johanna_C]

Our priest regarded pre-cana as such a joke, he had us skip it and meet with him instead. He gave excellent orthodox advise.

I guess we were the lucky ones.

 

[Debora123]

That does not mean it is incomprehensible. It just means that SOME people have not learned it. Which I guess is the same for EVERY language on earth.

It’s a little different because no country actually speaks Latin as their first language. You have to specifically take classes to understand it, and I think that’s why the poster referred to is as “incomprehensible.” Though I guess she/he can correct me if I’m wrong. Most people at a Latin mass don’t understand what is being said, so it is incomprehensible for the majority of the people there.

 

[russet1]

It’s a little different because no country actually speaks Latin as their first language. You have to specifically take classes to understand it, and I think that’s why the poster referred to is as “incomprehensible.” Though I guess she/he can correct me if I’m wrong. Most people at a Latin mass don’t understand what is being said, so it is incomprehensible for the majority of the people there.

I don’t think this has anything to do with the topic. I would be happy to discuss this via PM or you could start a thread.

I am always fascinated by the hostility to a valid Mass. I myself go to the Ordinary Form. But I do not disparage the other forms in all their uniqueness and beauty.

 

[adrift]

She/he suggested it because unless you specifically take Latin classes to learn how to speak the language, you’re not going to understand what they are saying in a Latin mass.

Raised when that is all there was.

I don’t remember anyone saying they didn’t understand. Granted we had missles that had Latin on one side and the translation on the other but we understood. Most did not take classes. Most everyone knew the responses even if it was just the altar boy responding. I learned to sing in Latin. I knew what I was saying even though I did not know the language.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t think this has anything to do with the topic. I would be happy to discuss this via PM or you could start a thread.

I am always fascinated by the hostility to a valid Mass. I myself go to the Ordinary Form. But I do not disparage the other forms in all their uniqueness and beauty.

I’m not “hostile” - I go to Latin Mass from time to time myself (thus proving the point that non-holy people go to Latin Mass, too!), and I go to Confession in Latin most of the time - but the implication was that people who go to Latin Mass are more holy or more faithful than those who do not - which is absolutely not true. Latin doesn’t make you “more holy” - it just makes you sound better educated to those who can’t understand what you’re saying.

 

[russet1]

I’m not “hostile” - I go to Latin Mass from time to time myself (thus proving the point that non-holy people go to Latin Mass, too!), and I go to Confession in Latin most of the time - but the implication was that people who go to Latin Mass are more holy or more faithful than those who do not - which is absolutely not true. Latin doesn’t make you “more holy” - it just makes you sound better educated to those who can’t understand what you’re saying.

Ok. But you said it was an incomprehensible language. Perhaps I should just assume you used the wrong word and didn’t mean for it to sound like you were itching for a scuffle on the subject. I think both you and I would agree the form or language the form is in really has no bearing on the issue at hand. I think that was your point anyway. but it sounded odd.
Just to be clear. My parish insists on holy days of obligation to alternate readings in different languages. None of which are Latin but one specifically, Basque, is understood by less people at the Mass in our parish than Latin.

Perhaps the Church still has Latin as an official language to be able to minister to it’s most sinful sheep in the flock. lawyers.

What has your experience with Pre Cana (I realize this term, “Pre Cana” may be “incomprehensible” to you so I will translate to a spoken language used in our Masses: ezkontza aurretik )classes in your parish been?

(come on, ya gotta give me clever kudos for that.)

 

[jmcrae]

What has your experience with Pre Cana (I realize this term, “Pre Cana” may be “incomprehensible” to you so I will translate to a spoken language used in our Masses: ezkontza aurretik )classes in your parish been?

(come on, ya gotta give me clever kudos for that.)

We were both Protestant at the time of our wedding, since I had not yet converted to the Catholic faith. Our marriage classes focused on communication skills. It was assumed that we knew about sex, and that we knew how to do it. They asked whether we had any questions about birth control; no one did. We had already decided to use the Billings Method, and we didn’t discuss it with anyone there.

They showed us a set of videos demonstrating right and wrong ways to communicate, based on the level of importance of the message. They emphasized that we needed to be “on the same page” regarding finances, children, and holiday customs. They mentioned that things seem to work out best when both members of the couple practice the same religion and come from similar cultural backgrounds - this makes it way easier to decide what traditions to pass on to the children, and you don’t have to worry about a grandparent stepping in and messing up the message.

They treated us to lunch at a gay bar - I think because it happened to be the only place that served food within walking distance of the place where the class was being held - but the regular patrons were completely freaked out to see this gaggle of heterosexual couples taking over their space. One of them actually climbed into the rafters to avoid possible physical contact with a woman. :bigyikes:

At the end of it we packed up the books, and as far as I know they are still in our wedding box.

 

[Debora123]

I don’t think this has anything to do with the topic. I would be happy to discuss this via PM or you could start a thread.

I know it’s not on topic. You did talk about it though, and don’t forget, my comment was in response to YOUR initial post.

I am always fascinated by the hostility to a valid Mass. I myself go to the Ordinary Form. But I do not disparage the other forms in all their uniqueness and beauty.

Actually, the hostility began the other way around when a poster here suggested the OP go to a Latin Mass so that she can be around “real Catholics.” After a comment like that, of course us English mass goers are going to defend ourselves.

 

[russet1]

Actually, the hostility began the other way around when a poster here suggested the OP go to a Latin Mass so that she can be around “real Catholics.” After a comment like that, of course us English mass goers are going to defend ourselves.

I suppose you are right that it was the other way around. But I thought the argument was easily dismissed whereas it seems there is a group of people who take it too far the other way and rag on latin. There is no need for an “English mass goer” (Technically there is not really a mass with that title. But you are probably meaning the Ordinary form) to defend. I myself am a Ordinary form attendee, and I don’t feel the need to defend anything. Especially since the EF is so rare anyway. There is no threat there.
Not to fan any flames or anything but I sincerely doubt that any marriage prep at a Latin Mass Parish would not include a meal at a gay bar Hopefully we would be able to say that about any Catholic marriage prep. Latin, English, polish or other…

 

[GangGreen]

For people who have gone to pre-cana classes… are they at all overseen by clergy/religious or is it all laypeople?

 

[mandajane]

Mine was laypeople

 

[Gordon_Sims]

For people who have gone to pre-cana classes… are they at all overseen by clergy/religious or is it all laypeople?

Ours was entirely laypeople, half of whom didn’t show up.

 

[SusanneT]

I am at a loss for words. Today my FH and I took our all day pre-cana class and I am flabbergasted by the amount of misinformation and reinforcement of horrible catechization that went on.

This class was listed as being for “non co-habitating couples”. My FH and I were the only couple there that were not co-habitating. Whatever, no real big deal in my opinion. We all need a pre-cana class requirement. So most of it was basic stuff we expected, until they got to the co-habitation, pre-marital sex, and NFP portion. I’m just going to list off the things that shocked me.

Cohabitation:
-The class was told that the church didn’t like it if you co-habitated, but you do what you have to do.
-They spent a lot of time recommending ways to make co-habitating more like living apart (seperate bedrooms, do something different to denote the change when you’re married, etc)

Pre-Marital Sex
-This entire section was passed off as a joke. The male pre-cana instructor said “The Church frowns on pre-marital sex, but…” then he laughed, and half the room laughed too.

NFP
-The female pre-cana instructor spent 20 minutes trying to explain the Sympto-Thermal Method, the whole time referring to it as “the Rhythm Method” and the hand out she gave us was about the Billings Method.
-English was not her first language, so I get how she might be confused, but I feel like this is something that should have been like… 1000% clear.
-She then said “It’s against Church teaching to use birth control, but you do what you have to do to make sure you decide how many children you have and when. The Church understands.”

I was flabbergasted. They spent more time on fun little “getting to know you” games, than they did on anything of substance. How can we be surprised when people don’t follow Church teaching if, even in the PRE-CANA CLASS, they are not being given correct information. It was clear a lot of these couples were very poorly catechized. Quite a few at my table were saying how they were only having a Catholic wedding because mom/grandma wanted one, and they didn’t believe in this stuff. (insert laugh from rest of the table while FH and I look on in shock)

I don’t know what to do. On the feedback form I wrote about the inaccuracies that were presented, but the pre-cana coordinators collected them, and apparently take them home, so who knows if anyone in charge of the program will hear anything.

I’m very glad we didn’t go to anything like this as my husband is very conservative in his views - he would have gone crazy !

I suppose there is an element of just bending to the realities of the situation but surely couples should be taught Church teaching - however unfashionable.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

For people who have gone to pre-cana classes… are they at all overseen by clergy/religious or is it all laypeople?

Unfortunately, although it was mostly lay people for us, we had a segment with a priest that told us something along the lines of: “I won’t tell you that you are going to hell for living together before marriage, those are rules made by some old men in Rome”… (True, we shouldn’t be telling people they are going to hell, we don’t know, but this comment just implied that living together is not sinful and pretty much that our commandments, or at least some aspects of them, were made up by some guys in Rome. The Truth is that premarital sex is grave matter and people could go to hell because of it. I know living together doesn’t automatically mean having sex, but often it is implied when people use that phrase.)
He was the priest in charge of our parish (campus parish). Ours was in parts a waste of time, and in part simply awful. We did write out our objections in the feedback form, and then we told the brother that was preparing us (he was actually excellent) what had been said at the classes, and he was appalled (he was working under that priest), but I wish we would have done more. We were being prepared at the parish on my college campus, but we were getting married somewhere else (in my hometown, far away from that state).

 

[GangGreen]

It’s really alarming when priests even go against Church teachings. I understand if they have their own opinions on things, but when they teach they must teach what the Church teaches, not some new age nonsense. That “old men in Rome” line is something that atheists use. I can’t believe a priest would say that.

Also, for other programs it’s really a shame that there is no oversight from people who are theologically trained. Laypeople who teach have a much better chance of giving misinformation.

 

[Razanir]

-This entire section was passed off as a joke. The male pre-cana instructor said “The Church frowns on pre-marital sex, but…” then he laughed, and half the room laughed too.
-She then said “It’s against Church teaching to use birth control, but you do what you have to do to make sure you decide how many children you have and when. The Church understands.”

These especially seem dangerous. Definitely let someone know about this!

Cohabitation:
-The class was told that the church didn’t like it if you co-habitated, but you do what you have to do.
-They spent a lot of time recommending ways to make co-habitating more like living apart (seperate bedrooms, do something different to denote the change when you’re married, etc)

This one, on the other hand, is technically partially true. As I’ve come to understand it, there is nothing sinful about living as brother and sister, at least if it’s the only viable option. That said, even if you live completely chaste lives together– no hugging, no kissing, having different bedrooms– it’s still a risk of scandal which may be sinful.

 

[GangGreen]

Pre-Cana is about preparing the couple for marriage. So to me teaching about premarital sex and cohabitation shouldn’t be required. The priest who is overseeing the couple’s preparation should bring these things up, but Pre-Cana classes shouldn’t have to cover these things. Pre-Cana is preparation for marriage, things that happen before the marriage shouldn’t necessarily belong in the conversation. Once the couple gets married, cohabitation and premarital sex are no longer a concern to the couple.

However, other things like sexual morality within the marriage are important and should be taught according to Church teachings. This is why oversight by clergy/religious should be required and laity who teach things that are outside of Church teachings should be corrected or removed.

 

[Julianna]

I am sorry you are taking offense to what I said. I am aware you’re “on my side” and thankful for that. When I say “hard liner” I mean someone who is not a Cafeteria Catholic. I am well aware that there are PLENTY of hard liners at the English masses. ALL I am saying is that one is more likely to meet a Cafeteria Catholic at an English Mass than a Latin one. I am not making a value judgement on what type of mass anyone goes to, or saying that because someone chooses the english mass over the latin means they are ‘better’ in any way.

hon, I get what you meant by hard liner. I am not offended. This is the way you choose to go.

In 1981,my DH and I were one of the co-habitating couples. It was known to the priest and no one else in the group. (none of their business) The priest was the instructor and there was another couple who tag-teamed with him. They were in their mid 50’s, children grown and grandchildren. The course was held every Wednesday evening for 6 weeks prior to the marriage. It coincided with the CCD classes for children. There was a schedule according to the wedding date. I do not recall any games, or talk about NFP. I do recall talking about disagreements, arguing, forgiveness, finances, children, in laws.