Pre-Destined?

[MikiBee]

First let me say that I am a Catholic who is working really hard at improving her faith. I have an honest and sincere question that has been troubling me for some time and would like to know the truth.

God knows all… He always has. I believe that.

But… that being said, God knew from the moment I was born what decisions I would make, and what caused me to make those decisions. He already knew all the sins I would ever commit, and whether I would be sorry for them.

If that is true, then God knew from before I was born whether I would be saved or not. A step further back, God knew before creation who all would be saved and who wouldn’t. He already knew he would send Jesus to die for our sins.

Why though? If God knew everything about us all before he made us, some are predestined to be saved. Yes, I know we have free will, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t already know what my free will is. So, what is the point of “anything” if it’s already written? Can I really do anything that wills surprise God? Doesn’t he already know my ever move for the rest of my life? He already knows whether I’ll be lucky enough to get to confession moments before my death?

Please… I am not trying to be snarky, or disrespectful. I have gone over this in my mind SO many times, and I am just unable to come up with any answers. I am hoping someone here can help.

Thank you,
Michelle

 

[MarcoPolo]

Why though? If God knew everything about us all before he made us, some are predestined to be saved. Yes, I know we have free will, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t already know what my free will is. So, what is the point of “anything” if it’s already written? Can I really do anything that wills surprise God? Doesn’t he already know my ever move for the rest of my life? He already knows whether I’ll be lucky enough to get to confession moments before my death?

Hi Michelle, what you are describing is the predestination theology known as Molinism—that God foreknew before all of time who would respond to His grace and thus be saved. I happen to like that particular school of thought. That, as you said, doesn’t make our free will any less free. We are still within the bounds of time, so we must still strive for the prize. And as to what the point of it all is, is to spend eternity with Him.

 

[AdriannaJean]

He may know, but we do not, that is what makes us free. If I had a crystal ball, saw into the future and saw that tomorrow my sister would stub her toe, if I didn’t tell her anything, would she still be free to make the decisions that would lead to her stubbing her toe? If we knew our fate then it would be different, if I knew I was saved I could slack off because I knew I was going to be saved, but I don’t know so I still have to work towards it.

 

[4Horsemen]

First let me say that I am a Catholic who is working really hard at improving her faith. I have an honest and sincere question that has been troubling me for some time and would like to know the truth.

God knows all… He always has. I believe that.

But… that being said, God knew from the moment I was born what decisions I would make, and what caused me to make those decisions. He already knew all the sins I would ever commit, and whether I would be sorry for them.

If that is true, then God knew from before I was born whether I would be saved or not. A step further back, God knew before creation who all would be saved and who wouldn’t. He already knew he would send Jesus to die for our sins.

Why though? If God knew everything about us all before he made us, some are predestined to be saved. Yes, I know we have free will, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t already know what my free will is. So, what is the point of “anything” if it’s already written? Can I really do anything that wills surprise God? Doesn’t he already know my ever move for the rest of my life? He already knows whether I’ll be lucky enough to get to confession moments before my death?

Please… I am not trying to be snarky, or disrespectful. I have gone over this in my mind SO many times, and I am just unable to come up with any answers. I am hoping someone here can help.

Thank you,
Michelle

Hello MikiBee!

From what I’ve read on the forum, there are threads that get into the idea of the nature of free will and why God bothered to create us when He already knew the outcome, as well as every detail, pertaining to each of our lives. Your focus is on pre-destination, on God’s end of it more than on our end as free human beings who choose (if I’m assuming correctly). You wonder if you can do anything that will surprise God. Naturally, the answer is no, since God is omniscient–all-knowing, among other attributes.

IMHO, God loves us so much that He wanted us to be happy with Him in Heaven. The old catechism answered the question of why God created us, “to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world and be happy with Him in Heaven.” (close enough). God says in Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you.” (And I don’t think He just meant Jeremiah). Seems like God must like company (although the Blessed Trinity makes three). A facile explanation, but it has merit. Afterall, He loves us to the point of shedding blood for us, knowing that some will choose separation, eternal separation, although He affords every opportunity for us to choose Truth, Goodness & Beauty, the very reflection of Himself. So although He knows our fate before the fact, He desires that those whose names are “written in the book of life”(those who have freely chosen “to know, love and serve Him in this world”) to come to fulfillment and be happy with Him forever.

I hope this explanation helped somewhat. Someone well-versed in apologetics/theology would be handy.

Many Blessings,
4Horsemen

 

[geometer]

I have prayed to see future events, and I had visions of those events. The visions were almost exactly the same as the actual experiences that happened to me.

Because of these experiences of seeing future events and then living them out, I believe that most of our experience is preordained. But, I have also prayed for various miraculous events to happen.

If you pray to see the future you may see something that would cause you to sin. This actually happened to me. I prayed to have a vision of the next days lottery number, as it would be posted on the wall of a business that runs a lottery machine. I had the vision. I was a bit awed by the vision. It occured inside my forehead. I saw a man that I knew who worked at the business write the three digit number on the wall pad where the daily numbers were written.

A few moments after seeing that, I thought that I would put some money on the number. I was immediately filled with an enervating darkness. I was frozen where I stood, and had to turn my though away from the idea that I would place a bet of that number.

Then I thought to my self that, well it may be a sin for me to bet the number, but maybe I could give the number to someone else. I thought of someone who plays the lottery, and then thought to call her on the phone. And, I was stuck again by darkness. It was the same.

The sin must be that of covetousness. That is the only thing that I could imagine that it could be. I backed away from the thought of calling her, the darkness went away.

I called the business the next day and talked to the man that wrote the number on the wall. I asked him what the number was, and he said to me you know the number, you tell me. I recited the number that I had seen in the vision. He said that was the number…

However, praying for something to happen, even a miraculous thing, I believe is much less hazardous. I have never had that much trouble when praying for a future event. I have felt resistance to prayers, but have not been stuck by darkness by praying.

Perhaps we only truly have free will if we pray. Otherwise I believe we simply follow along with what is preordained.

Pray bigger,

Vincent

 

[MikiBee]

I’m having trouble wondering why God would create someone He knew before he created them, that they would spend etenity in hell. Why would He put a soul through eternal torment? There would be nothing that person could ever do in their life to redeem themselves, because God knew when he created them that they would go to hell. I’m having a hard time understanding that.

 

[Abbadon]

Perhaps god needs some to go to hell for some to go to heaven? He couldn’t just have created a universe were everyone went to heaven, because everyone believed now could he?

 

[KoCLLB]

There has been times when I have wondered " Why does God put us here on earth if He knows if we are going to heaven or hell?" I think God gives us lots of opportunities in our lives to make the right choice. Free will is a funny thing. I have a mormon mother, a lutheran father, I was never baptized until i came into the catholic church in 1999. God knew all this would happen but I never would have imagined it. Just remember God loves us all. He gave us free will and loves to see us grow in faith and love toward Him.

 

[Abbadon]

There has been times when I have wondered " Why does God put us here on earth if He knows if we are going to heaven or hell?" I think God gives us lots of opportunities in our lives to make the right choice. Free will is a funny thing. I have a mormon mother, a lutheran father, I was never baptized until i came into the catholic church in 1999. God knew all this would happen but I never would have imagined it. Just remember God loves us all. He gave us free will and loves to see us grow in faith and love toward Him.

Well maybe you had that wonderful turn of events but what about the people who were as children raped by preists and since the catholic church payed off thier parents and put a gag order and then simply moved the preist to another church, and as a result you felt betrayed and have never trusted organised relegion again. What about those people? As a result of this act by another person, which god knew would happen it is highly unlikely that after such treatment that little girl would ever trust in the church ever again.

 

[tonyrey]

Well maybe you had that wonderful turn of events but what about the people who were as children raped by preists and since the catholic church payed off thier parents and put a gag order and then simply moved the preist to another church, and as a result you felt betrayed and have never trusted organised relegion again. What about those people? As a result of this act by another person, which god knew would happen it is highly unlikely that after such treatment that little girl would ever trust in the church ever again.

You are may well be right but what does that prove? That we are predestined?

 

[4Horsemen]

I have prayed to see future events, and I had visions of those events. The visions were almost exactly the same as the actual experiences that happened to me.

Because of these experiences of seeing future events and then living them out, I believe that most of our experience is preordained. But, I have also prayed for various miraculous events to happen.

If you pray to see the future you may see something that would cause you to sin. This actually happened to me. I prayed to have a vision of the next days lottery number, as it would be posted on the wall of a business that runs a lottery machine. I had the vision. I was a bit awed by the vision. It occured inside my forehead. I saw a man that I knew who worked at the business write the three digit number on the wall pad where the daily numbers were written.

A few moments after seeing that, I thought that I would put some money on the number. I was immediately filled with an enervating darkness. I was frozen where I stood, and had to turn my though away from the idea that I would place a bet of that number.

Then I thought to my self that, well it may be a sin for me to bet the number, but maybe I could give the number to someone else. I thought of someone who plays the lottery, and then thought to call her on the phone. And, I was stuck again by darkness. It was the same.

The sin must be that of covetousness. That is the only thing that I could imagine that it could be. I backed away from the thought of calling her, the darkness went away.

I called the business the next day and talked to the man that wrote the number on the wall. I asked him what the number was, and he said to me you know the number, you tell me. I recited the number that I had seen in the vision. He said that was the number…

However, praying for something to happen, even a miraculous thing, I believe is much less hazardous. I have never had that much trouble when praying for a future event. I have felt resistance to prayers, but have not been stuck by darkness by praying.

Perhaps we only truly have free will if we pray. Otherwise I believe we simply follow along with what is preordained.

Pray bigger,

Vincent

It is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to pray to know future events. St. Teresa of Avila, among many other saints, warned of such foolhardiness. The visions or locutions people have, in this regard, may very well come from evil sources (like devil/evil or "unclean spirits as Jesus refers to them). It’s like playing with fire. Always ask for God’s will in humility, and He will show you the way–not always the way we desire.

 

[4Horsemen]

I’m having trouble wondering why God would create someone He knew before he created them, that they would spend etenity in hell. Why would He put a soul through eternal torment? There would be nothing that person could ever do in their life to redeem themselves, because God knew when he created them that they would go to hell. I’m having a hard time understanding that.

Greetings MikiBee!

God so loves each and everyone of us that He wants ALL to be saved. However, with the “fall” of humanity through our first parents, we are subject to infirmities of many kinds, whether by nature or self-inflicted through our choices (free will). So, yes, we are “pre-destined”, in a sense, by our genes as well as environment. God knows our situation. We still make choices, regardless of the circumstances in which we live, whether good, bad or neutral.

The only way I can answer why God would “put a soul through eternal torment” is to say He doesn’t. It’s our final act of either humility or Satan’s non serviam, “I will not serve” that determines our fate. Look at it this way: God is like a parent who wants the best for His children. Some children (even in the best of families–meaning taught morals) just stray, and their parents agonize over them, just like God was in agony over us. But, in and through His love, He allows us to decide for ourselves. Afterall, He didn’t create us to be puppets.

God Bless,
4Horsemen

 

[MikiBee]

Greetings MikiBee!

God so loves each and everyone of us that He wants ALL to be saved. However, with the “fall” of humanity through our first parents, we are subject to infirmities of many kinds, whether by nature or self-inflicted through our choices (free will). So, yes, we are “pre-destined”, in a sense, by our genes as well as environment. God knows our situation. We still make choices, regardless of the circumstances in which we live, whether good, bad or neutral.

The only way I can answer why God would “put a soul through eternal torment” is to say He doesn’t. It’s our final act of either humility or Satan’s non serviam, “I will not serve” that determines our fate. Look at it this way: God is like a parent who wants the best for His children. Some children (even in the best of families–meaning taught morals) just stray, and their parents agonize over them, just like God was in agony over us. But, in and through His love, He allows us to decide for ourselves. Afterall, He didn’t create us to be puppets.

But didn’t God know everything I am going to do in my life even before he created me? So, for example, God knew BEFORE he created me whether I was going to follow Him or not. So let’s say I don’t believe in God-- God knew that BEFORE he made me, therefore he did make me knowing I wouldn’t believe, thus he made me for the sole purpose of damnation. That is what I struggle with.

I know several people who don’t believe in God-- but God made them that way. Yes, they have the will to choose not to believe, but God knew they wouldn’t believe before he made them. He knew they wouldn’t choose to believe in him. Therefore they are born to suffer ETERNAL damnation. How is that love?

I know God can’t make anyone love him. I know it is our choice. BUT-- God being all-knowing, knew this from the beginning of time, so he’s just creating some people who he knows won’t make it. One step backward… God knew from the beginning of time and creation who all would make it to heaven, and who wouldn’t.

I understand that God can’t force us to love him, and that he can’t make it so we all get to heaven just for the fact that we’re born. It’s really hard for me to put my thoughts into words, and I feel like I’m being misunderstood. I just want to know why God would make people to fail. It seems we don’t really have a choice at all, and that we truely are puppets. Yes, we have free will and can choose what we want to do, BUT, God already knows all those decisions, so no matter what we do here on earth, our salvation was determined before we were created.

 

[4Horsemen]

But didn’t God know everything I am going to do in my life even before he created me? So, for example, God knew BEFORE he created me whether I was going to follow Him or not. So let’s say I don’t believe in God-- God knew that BEFORE he made me, therefore he did make me knowing I wouldn’t believe, thus he made me for the sole purpose of damnation. That is what I struggle with.

I know several people who don’t believe in God-- but God made them that way. Yes, they have the will to choose not to believe, but God knew they wouldn’t believe before he made them. He knew they wouldn’t choose to believe in him. Therefore they are born to suffer ETERNAL damnation. How is that love?

I know God can’t make anyone love him. I know it is our choice. BUT-- God being all-knowing, knew this from the beginning of time, so he’s just creating some people who he knows won’t make it. One step backward… God knew from the beginning of time and creation who all would make it to heaven, and who wouldn’t.

I understand that God can’t force us to love him, and that he can’t make it so we all get to heaven just for the fact that we’re born. It’s really hard for me to put my thoughts into words, and I feel like I’m being misunderstood. I just want to know why God would make people to fail. It seems we don’t really have a choice at all, and that we truely are puppets. Yes, we have free will and can choose what we want to do, BUT, God already knows all those decisions, so no matter what we do here on earth, our salvation was determined before we were created.

It does seem like a paradox, i.e. having free will yet being programmed to do what we do. So something is wrong here. As I mentioned in an earlier post, we are determined, in a sense, by nature and nuture, genes and environment. You said you understand that God can’t force us to love Him and just make us all go to Heaven. My thinking is that we are here in a battle, a spiritual battle, as St. Paul so vehemently writes, “between principalities and powers. . .” So as Christians, we are the Church Militant, working for the greater honor and glory of God. At the final Judgment is where we will witness the honor and glory and power (and all God’s attributes). He already won the victory, as we’ve heard so often, but the battle still rages.

It may seem that we don’t have a choice and we are puppets, but just looking at my own life, I see what choices I made and where they have led. And I’ve considered that I might have made other choices and wonder where they would have led. IMO, if everyone chose God and followed His dictates continuously, we’d have a perfect world. Trouble is, we are imperfect people; that is our nature due to sin.

If that doesn’t help, maybe someone with a background in theology could add to this discussion.

Many blessings,
4Horsemen

 

[nkbeth]

I’m having trouble wondering why God would create someone He knew before he created them, that they would spend etenity in hell. Why would He put a soul through eternal torment? There would be nothing that person could ever do in their life to redeem themselves, because God knew when he created them that they would go to hell. I’m having a hard time understanding that.

The old Catholic Encyclopedia says:

In order to emphasize how mysterious and unapproachable is Divine election, the Council of Trent calls predestination “hidden mystery”. … Predestination is indeed a sublime mystery … the depths of the eternal counsel cannot be fathomed"

It’s OK to think about predestination (and free will) but we can’t think that we can “get our mind around it”. We finally have no idea of what it *really *means to be “outside of time” or omnipotent, all-wise, all-loving or any other of the infinite attributes of God.

We keep thinking about it by making God into some kind of super human with a crystal ball. We say but… but… but…, forgetting we are trying to take apart a mystery. It is somewhat like trying to understand the Trinity or the Incarnation. Finally we just have to trust in God’s truly giving us free-will and never “making us” destined to sin. Our going to heaven or hell is in our hands in reality; we can’t fully know the reality that is God. Trust in God. … I think there is such a thing as thinking about predestination too much. If it troubles you just trust in God.

God who is all-good doesn’t put a man through eternal torment. Jesus Christ redeems each man and leaves him free to obey God or not. How God, allowing evil and causing good, can know through eternity what will happen is a mystery.

 

[MikiBee]

Thank you for that reply. That really puts my heart at ease. It is so true that it is impossible to understand certain things about God-- that so much is a mystery. I don’t want to believe that God would create someone knowing full well that person doesn’t have a chance at salvation. Why would a loving God do that? I am just going to have to let go of trying t understand everything and to just take it on faith.

I am, though, still terrified of dying with an unconfessed sin… lol. I don’t want my whole life of trying my absolute hardest to do good by God to account for nothing because I may have not made it to confession in time, or that I may have forgotten to confess a particular sin. I really do need to just trust in God’s mercy, and not have such extreme anxiety over it. It’s just that eternity itself hard to fathom. I don’t want to spend all of eternity in hell because of something like that. Am I right to be so scared?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I am, though, still terrified of dying with an unconfessed sin… lol. I don’t want my whole life of trying my absolute hardest to do good by God to account for nothing because I may have not made it to confession in time, or that I may have forgotten to confess a particular sin. I really do need to just trust in God’s mercy, and not have such extreme anxiety over it. It’s just that eternity itself hard to fathom. I don’t want to spend all of eternity in hell because of something like that. Am I right to be so scared?

God does not play little games of “gotcha”…like “oops, you didn’t go to confession in time!” If your heart is oriented toward Him, and you know you should go to confession when you sin, and you plan to make the effort to go when you can, then you are His child. Remember the humble man in Scripture who simply beat his chest and said, “Lord, have mercy on me.” We spend our entire lives falling, getting back up, falling, getting back up… Confession is there for our cleansing, and to receive grace to avoid future sins. It is a great gift to be able to confess straight to God through the ministry of the priest!

Also, perhaps an analogy I heard about God being outside of time will help. I heard this from Jimmy Akin on Catholic Answers Live. Think of all of time and space as a giant mural. The far left side of the mural is the beginning of time, and in it are all the creatures and space and everything that happens moves from left to right. The mural depicts all of time until the end of time at the far right. To God, time and space is a singular event. We experience “before” “after”. He does not. So to God, it’s not really proper to think of Him as knowing “beforehand” and “then” creating people He knew were “going to” go to hell. The words in quotes in my previous sentence are not words characteristic of God’s vantage point. They are only words by which we human can attempt to describe His nature. But the language falls short, for language is limited, and we can only speak in analogies, not specifics. So we have free will, and God knows the snapshot of time all at once, and He granted His humans the free will to accept Him or not. Free will, of course, is the hallmark of love, and He wants us to choose Him. Those who go to hell do so of their own rejection of God’s grace, which is an eternal gift, and it is a justice we cannot fathom in this life. I hope that helps.

 

[nkbeth]

I am, though, still terrified of dying with an unconfessed sin… lol. I don’t want my whole life of trying my absolute hardest to do good by God to account for nothing because I may have not made it to confession in time, or that I may have forgotten to confess a particular sin. I really do need to just trust in God’s mercy, and not have such extreme anxiety over it. It’s just that eternity itself hard to fathom. I don’t want to spend all of eternity in hell because of something like that. Am I right to be so scared?

Again the answer is trust in God. Pray, love him and trust in Him.

Remember that only mortal sins send you to hell if you die with one on your soul.

If you truly don’t have time to go to confession (eg before you die) even a mortal sin will be forgiven if you are *truly *sorry out of love of God. But don’t neglect to go to confession as soon as you can.

From the Baltimore Catechism:
416. What are we to do if without our fault we forget to confess a mortal sin?
If without our fault we forget to confess a mortal sin, we may receive Holy Communion, because we have made a good confession and the sin is forgiven; but we must tell the sin in confession if it again comes to our mind.

I think that If you are really trying to love God you can focus more on Him and less on hell - especially when it troubles you so much. God won’t forsake you into some last minute trap of sin. Just pray.

 

[Sarpedon]

Why though? If God knew everything about us all before he made us, some are predestined to be saved. Yes, I know we have free will, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t already know what my free will is. So, what is the point of “anything” if it’s already written? Can I really do anything that wills surprise God? Doesn’t he already know my ever move for the rest of my life? He already knows whether I’ll be lucky enough to get to confession moments before my death?

God has the knowledge of our actions outside of time but this doesn’t impact the fact that we, through our decisions, determine within time what that timeless knowledge will consist of.

It’s kind of like a movie. The actors in the movie is free. They move around and make decisions through their free will. At the same time, we can watch those movies. I can know what the actor freely chose to do. My knowledge of his or her actions does not mean that I caused the actor to react in that way.

Since we are within time, we can only know the free actions of individuals in the past. God is outside of time. He sees the grand story of creation all at once timelessly. What God observes timelessly is determined to a large degree by our free actions within time. We create the movie through out free actions within time, and God views the completed story outside of time.

 

[RosaryFan]

First let me say that I am a Catholic who is working really hard at improving her faith. I have an honest and sincere question that has been troubling me for some time and would like to know the truth.

God knows all… He always has. I believe that.

But… that being said, God knew from the moment I was born what decisions I would make, and what caused me to make those decisions. He already knew all the sins I would ever commit, and whether I would be sorry for them.

If that is true, then God knew from before I was born whether I would be saved or not. A step further back, God knew before creation who all would be saved and who wouldn’t. He already knew he would send Jesus to die for our sins.

Why though? If God knew everything about us all before he made us, some are predestined to be saved. Yes, I know we have free will, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t already know what my free will is. So, what is the point of “anything” if it’s already written? Can I really do anything that wills surprise God? Doesn’t he already know my ever move for the rest of my life? He already knows whether I’ll be lucky enough to get to confession moments before my death?

Please… I am not trying to be snarky, or disrespectful. I have gone over this in my mind SO many times, and I am just unable to come up with any answers. I am hoping someone here can help.

Thank you,
Michelle

Hi, Michelle. You don’t sound “snarky”. I often wondered the same EXACT thing. It is truly a mystery that no one can ever explain. Just keep this in mind - God knows what you (and everyone else) is going to do next, but that doesn’t mean your life is already written. You still have free will and God is still trying to be a part of your life as you live it day-by-day. Just because He knows the outcome, doesn’t mean your free will is gone and our existence is pointless. God gently taps us on the shoulder. If we choose to listen and let Him work in our lives, we will be the ones who are surprised (since we can’t surprise God). We have the power to make our day mundane (by not listening to God) or marvelous (by listening to God). Since we do have free will, our outcome is completely and totally up to us, even though God knows of it already, for the simple reason that God is not bound by time and space so all things are present to Him at all times.

God must have thought we were worth the trouble because, as you point out, He KNEW He would have to send His beloved Son to die for our sins. One has to wonder why He would create us knowing that. But He did, and He considers us worthy of such a sacrifice. God created us out of love. He wanted to share His love with us. He wants us, in turn, to know Him, to love Him and to serve Him in this world and to be with Him in the next world. It’s truly a mystery, but one that should give you comfort, not anxiety.