Pre-Destined?

[Saint_Sinner]

I wasn’t trying to offend you. I’m sorry that I did. The world you propose would not have any consequences for sins, for not loving God and our neighbor. Since you keep asking this question, I was trying to ascertain whether you felt that God should have created a world where there were no consequences for our actions. God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He could do anything He wants. As I said before, He could have created us without free will and programmed us to love Him with no exceptions. The world was perfect before Adam and Eve turned against God.

That’s not really what I’m talking about either. Sorry I’m not being clear.

This is really more of a hypothetical. I’m in rather deep discussions with an atheist friend and this relates to a question he keeps drilling down on. I finally said that I just don’t know but maybe God could not make a universe where everyone did not go to Hell given that He wanted there to be free will and us to choose to love Him. I know that God is perfectly just and is perfect Love Himself. How do I explain (if we can) how He is and that He would make some of us knowing that we were going to choose Hell (if you think that God can make or unmake any of us). Is every one of us neccesary to the universe the way it is? If so, then is the Catholic Church more Deist than I realized? If not, why would he make us for such a frustrated end?

Does that make better sense?

 

[PJM]

First let me say that I am a Catholic who is working really hard at improving her faith. I have an honest and sincere question that has been troubling me for some time and would like to know the truth.

God knows all… He always has. I believe that.

But… that being said, God knew from the moment I was born what decisions I would make, and what caused me to make those decisions. He already knew all the sins I would ever commit, and whether I would be sorry for them.

If that is true, then God knew from before I was born whether I would be saved or not. A step further back, God knew before creation who all would be saved and who wouldn’t. He already knew he would send Jesus to die for our sins.

Why though? If God knew everything about us all before he made us, some are predestined to be saved. Yes, I know we have free will, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t already know what my free will is. So, what is the point of “anything” if it’s already written? Can I really do anything that wills surprise God? Doesn’t he already know my ever move for the rest of my life? He already knows whether I’ll be lucky enough to get to confession moments before my death?

Please… I am not trying to be snarky, or disrespectful. I have gone over this in my mind SO many times, and I am just unable to come up with any answers. I am hoping someone here can help.

Thank you,
Michelle

Hi Michelle,

Your answer lies in the very Nature of god who is and has to be “all everything good Perfectly.”

ALL = completely without exception

**Everything **= God can and must be only and all good. Otherwise He could not and would not be God.

Good = all that is not evil, bad, spiteful, hurt-full, or sinful

** Perfectly ** = means no room for improvement, no room for anything bad or evil

So now we must ask is "predestination a “good” or an “evil / bad” thing?

What does predestination require? That God take back one of the gifts that all humanity has; namely “our freewill.” Which is one of the ways we are made “in the image and likeness of God,” which in turn means we tend to be inherently good, but have a counter-balance “concupiece”, natural Tendency to sin, as a result of Adam and Eve’s sin.

It is a Bad thing, because it would admit and give evidence that God made a mistake in giving us a “freewill”. God is Perfect cannot error!

It is a “bad thing” because God would actually without cause, send people to hell or heaven, with no regard as to what kind of life they lived.

It is a “bad thing” because we would have no say in the matter, and that would make God both unjust and unfair, which God cannot be.

So NO, predestination is not, nor could it be a part of God’s Divine Plan for us.

The fact that God is “all-knowing” must be considered with the equal facts that God is “all-fair and all-just.” Simply because God knows, in no way determines where we end up for eternity. That friend, is a decision that you and I make for ourselves by our personal decisions; God only affirms what we ourselves have decided.

 

[tonyrey]

I know that God is perfectly just and is perfect Love Himself. How do I explain (if we can) how He is and that He would make some of us knowing that we were going to choose Hell (if you think that God can make or unmake any of us).

The answer is that we are procreators, i.e. co-creators with God. There only three ways for God to avoid creating individuals who choose to go to hell:

1. To refrain from creating the human race.
2. To refrain from giving some members of the human race a soul.
3. To annihilate those who choose to separate themselves from Him.

 

[Saint_Sinner]

The answer is that we are procreators, i.e. co-creators with God. There only three ways for God to avoid creating individuals who choose to go to hell:

1. To refrain from creating the human race.
2. To refrain from giving some members of the human race a soul.
3. To annihilate those who choose to separate themselves from Him.

This is kind of where I ended up. I came to the conclusion that it was impossible. That God could not have done anything differently since He would have.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by MikiBee
I am, though, still terrified of dying with an unconfessed sin… lol. I don’t want my whole life of trying my absolute hardest to do good by God to account for nothing because I may have not made it to confession in time, or that I may have forgotten to confess a particular sin. I really do need to just trust in God’s mercy, and not have such extreme anxiety over it. It’s just that eternity itself hard to fathom. I don’t want to spend all of eternity in hell because of something like that. Am I right to be so scared?

Dear friend in Christ Jesus,

John 16: 2 “The hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, every man to his home, and will leave me alone; yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me. 33 **I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” **

We should be neither too afraind nor to confident. {Because we are “human” and prone to sin, BUT God is GOD and prone to forgivness!

First off, all unintentional unconfessed sins are FORGIVEN! IF you recall one later {speaking here of unconfessed mortal sins only} just tell the priest that for forgot to Confess this sin in you’re last Confession.

Second, lead you’re life as an informed and FULLY practicing Roman Catholic, and pray daily for the grace of “a happy death”. God hears and answers prayers that are for our Spiritual betterment,

Third, make a habit of regular and regular Confession, say once every month.

God who is and has to be all Just and all Fair, will guide you’re actions if you walk with Christ, know that HE WILL BE WALKING WITH YOU!

Humbly, in TRUE humility thank God everyday of you’re life!

Love and prayer’s

Pat

 

[PJM]

QUOTE] tabsieI can’t make any claim to know anything that anybody else doesn’t, but some things in the Bible always made me wonder exactly how the “pre-destined” thing worked myself.

Look at Abraham: “If there are only 5 good people, are you still going to destroy the city?”
“No, if you find five good people, I won’t destroy the city.”

Look at Jonah: God would have destroyed the city and everyone in it, human or animal, if Jonah hadn’t gone and preached to them, and thus saved them all.

I don’t begin to pretend that my assessment might be “right,” but it’s something that I’ve considered. God is totally all powerful. He’s not constrained by ANYTHING. And time doesn’t really exist,

If God is all-powerful, and He is, then it would seem to ME (this isn’t Catholic teaching, so you can discard it if you want to) that God should be able to modify things within time, so that the outcome differs depending on His absolute Divine Will.

NOTE: Because of the length of the post and my reply this will be on two cosecutive post… it’s too important to shorten it further.

Thank you for pointing out that this “is NOT a Catholic teaching.” Actually its not even “Chrsitian” " in that it denies the Very Divine Nature of God.

Simply put we can define God’s Nature as " Only Everything good… Perfectly."

What we are saying is that **God, by God’s own Divine Nature must be, has to be **“all good” and cannot do or cause evil. [He can and does PERMIT Evil but that is NOT causing it.]

So in you’re premise, God being as you say “All-Powerful” could modify things to come into line with His Will for us." Actually, God cannot do this, because if He did, He would not be the "Only and all Perfect God that God must be.

In order to do as you suggest {because we are human we cannot truly know and understand the mind and heart of God … Isaiah 55: 6-9,} we tend to these type of judgements, somewhat naturally. But God has endowed every human person with Super natural Spiritual gifts, for a very specific purpose. These gifts include our minds, intellects, the ability to reason, our freewills, and that which annimates all of these gifts and also our physical bodies; our very souls. We should note that no two human beings are exactly alike, because of these spiritual gifts.

**These gifts are given to humanity, that "we might know, love and serve the Lord in this world so that we can be happy with Him in the next. **

Isaiah 43: 7 "every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made."

Isaiah 43: 21 “the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”

So God would have to give up being God if He were to overide our freewill and intellect, given to us precisely to PROVE our Love of Him.

It is precisely with this understanding that we can know with complete certitude, that “Biblical Predestination” speaks only "of God being “all-knowing” and thus aware of what decisions we will make, without influencing our decisions towards evil.

** Catholic Holy Eucharist, and the Sacrament of Confession are clear and abiding evidence that God does go way out of the way to save us. BUT IT IS ALWAYS our personal choice, and God simply affirms what we ourselves have decided will be our eternal fate!**

It helps me to think of Predestination as a framework. God knows what He wants to have done and He picks and chooses when and where and how He lets things happen. He has absolute control.

NO!, God could have, but does not have “absolute control” because God CANNOT violate our freewill and intellect, and still be a “perfect God.” Can’t happen!

He knows both what will happen and what might have happened.

NOT if it effects ones Salvation, which is and must always be one’s own personal, uninfluenced decision!

So let’s say that I’m predestined to go to Hell. I live a rotten life, keep doing horrible things, deny God, etc. Now, God is all merciful, too. So he throws my way a friend who’s a good Catholic who loves God and enjoys sharing His Word with others. She’s also someone I can put up with because she’s got a great personality, and I “forgive” her for being Catholic.

"Predestion" simply does not exist…PERIOD!

Please see next post

 

[PJM]

Page two of previous post

Now imagine my friend prays and prays and prays that I be converted. I’ve already decided, I’m going to Hell. I don’t want God or need Him, thank you very much. But my friend is stubborn. First off, God loves her and wants to give her good things. Second, God loves me despite the fact that I make Him roll His eyes on a daily basis.

He is ALL POWERFUL. If He so chooses, why couldn’t He alter my destiny out of love for his faithful Daughter and out of an attempt to keep me out of hell? He throws something else my way, a book on Christianity that makes sense. I start to think, “Well, maybe,” and then I start feeling guilty about my behavior. He’s opened the door wide and is inviting me in. Now, I could say, “No,” and well, there you have it. Back to Hell.

Yes, you’re personal choice, NOT God’s!

If, however, given everything He’s poured onto me, I turn and say, “Okay, I’d like to believe, but I need help. God, help me.” And I set about converting to Catholicism and start going to Mass, saying [going to Confession PJM] confession, etc.

God actively changed the outcome. The framework was there - I was born, I met my friend, I married so-and-so, I had X number of kids, etc. The outcome was going to be damnation. But, since God is the absolute author of everything, he has the ability to change destiny if a human, given free will, desires to do God’s will.

**No friend, He does not! Becaue He is God, he cannot! **

This isn’t one of those, “Everything’s in flux, we make our own destiny, God can’t see the future,” bits. That’s bogus. God can do anything at any time.[only GOOD PJM] We know He actively alters matter and energy, and we call those alterations “miracles.” Why shouldn’t time be the same way? A miraculous change comes over me through God’s graces, and I change my mind. I’m not interested in damnation anymore, because God has been calling to me. He isn’t forced to follow some strict outline, or else he’s not all powerful. [God is all powerful only to the extent of also being “all-good.” PJM ] At the same time, He knows exactly what He wants, and will arrange everything perfectly to suite His desire and needs.

From you’re lips to Gods ears friend, it CAN"T happen as you say!

Jesus would have been born no matter what, and the redemption of mankind would have taken place under any circumstances. But God has absolute control over when and where and can decide what factors He’s looking for to make everything perfect. And nothing can be changed, at all, without His Will being involved. It’s His power, not ours.

Nope you’re wrong but this is too far off topic to address.

I guess my feeling is just that pre-destination, the way that Calvinists see it, is awfully darn limiting to a limitless God. And we are not supposed to fall into that trap; we always have free will. People are not “doomed” to go to Hell because God arbitrarily decided, “I’m going to save X and X and X but those other guys, naaah.”

Yea, we finally agree on something

Like I said, I don’t know that my interpretation is right. I just think that God can do anything, so He should be able to change things according to what He wants to do. It’s how He keeps control over every situation.

It’s a nice thought, but God’s too big, too perfect to fit into the box you want to put Him in:thumbsup:

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Luke_K]

Number 15 of the 15 promises of Mary to Christians who recite the rosary:

“Devotion to My Rosary is a great sign of predestination.”

How is this explained? Did St. Dominic just make this one up?

 

[nkbeth]

Praying the Rosary is a good sign you’re on the road to Heaven. You’re not necessarily going to go there, and God is not telling you that, but it is a good sign, a good start, and a great help.

I agree there is no calvinistic-predestination but the Church (St. Augustine, St. Thomas, the old Catholic Encyclopedia etc) clearly say there is predestination. But they just as clearly say

1. You can’t know you’re predestined.
2. It doesn’t take away 1 iota from your free will.
3. You aren’t eternally doomed to hell by God

When we do good, including working our way to heaven, it is God who does good in us, even while we do it ourselves. We can’t say “my free will choice is good, and that goodness came only from me”. Our free wills are God’s but he moves them freely, not as a puppet-master.

This is a mystery! We keep trying to look through God’s eyes and say “well He couldn’t have done it this way”. But we have to admit both “our wills are free” and “all good things (and good choices) come from God” even though we can’t understand.

Evil choices come only from ourselves.

This is what I understand now.

 

[Luke_K]

Nevermind, I think I figured it out.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia: "To say that there exist probable signs of predestination which exclude all excessive anxiety is not against her teaching. The following are some of the criteria set down by the theologians: purity of heart, pleasure in prayer, patience in suffering, frequent reception of the sacraments, love of Christ and His Church, devotion to the Mother of God, etc. "

Basically, saying the rosary is a sign that we’re living a good life and desire God, and thus are on the right path towards heaven. Since God created us with our free will, and is outside time, he knows from eternity which of the souls he created would be freely willing to come to him.

So devotion to the rosary is like God telling us from his eternal knowledge that we’re not far from the kingdom of heaven.

EDIT: Thanks, nkbeth, I wrote this before you posted your reply, but we apparently figured similar conclusions!

 

[PJM]

=Luke K;5252517]Number 15 of the 15 promises of Mary to Christians who recite the rosary:

“Devotion to My Rosary is a great sign of predestination.”

How is this explained? Did St. Dominic just make this one up?

Really great question:tiphat

While we can’t “read his mind,” we can nevertheless put into words the concept of an IPRC Saint.

The idea, the very concept of “predestination” is contrary to the mind, heart and will of God.

We can know this with certitude of belief because God "is only and all everything good PERFECTLY.’

Logic affirms that both “fairness and justice” are forms and manifestiations of “Goodness” and they therefore must be part of the intrinsic Nature of God.

We then can deduce that were God not to practice PERFECT fairness and perfect Justice, he would cease being God.

And continuing in basic logic, we can now conclude that Saint Dominic had in mind a different understanding. What might that have been?

Please notice he said " a sign" he did not say a guarentee!

Mary, the Mother of God is the PERFECT Intecessor. Jesus cannot say “NO” to His Mother, because She too is PERFECTED, and can request nothing Contrary to the Natural and Perfect Will of Her Son.

What is being assumed here is that one regulary and faithfully prays the Rosary, one of the Church’s truly GREAT prayers, in specific response to our BVM’s specific promises has in effect established a “conditional contract of personal Salvation” The conditions on Mary’s half of the contract is to plead for “super-abundant graces for you”, and to be with you at the moment of your death.

You’re side of the contract is to CONTINUE to live a life worthy of Salvation by a IPRC, avoid Mortal sin, die in the state of grace, utilize the Sacraments, and in general keep living out you’re life as you currently are.

There does seem to be a special grace of “immediate perfection” [consider the good theif who died with Jesus] that Mary is able to invoke through the Divine Merits of Her Son Jesus, that work like a “plenary indulgence.” That certainly is within the Power of God to grant His Mother, and indeed a reasonable reward for extrodinary living of you’re faith, and consistant with Divine Justice.

The “extrodinary living” of ones Faith is presumed to be as a result of complete willful compliance with the request of Mary to pray Her Rosary accoring to very specific conditions.

Again a wonderful question, and I hope this answers you’re concern?

Love and prayer’s
Pat

 

[Luke_K]

Thanks for your reply too, PJM.

I seem to like the Molinist interpretation of predestination. Two quotes specifically from the Catholic Encyclopedia cleared things up for me:

"This hypothetical decree reads as follows: Just as in time eternal happiness depends on merit as a condition, so I intended heaven from all eternity only for foreseen merit.—It is only by reason of the infallible foreknowledge of these merits that the hypothetical decree is changed into an absolute: These and no others shall be saved. "

And from St. Ambrose: “He did not predestine before He foreknew, but for those whose merits He foresaw, He predestined the reward”

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Predestination

 

[severntofall]

Again the answer is trust in God. Pray, love him and trust in Him.

Remember that only mortal sins send you to hell if you die with one on your soul.
From the Baltimore Catechism:
416. What are we to do if without our fault we forget to confess a mortal sin?
If without our fault we forget to confess a mortal sin, we may receive Holy Communion, because we have made a good confession and the sin is forgiven; but we must tell the sin in confession if it again comes to our mind.

Just in case you’re wondering, masterbation is still a mortal sin, as is any sexual act not open to procreation.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I have a problem with this issue. I used to be Presbyterian, but as my first pastor was a Methodist by training, it was hardly ever mentioned. So it doesn’t come from religious indoctrination.

My reasons are more personal.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere that the night my father died, he appeared in my bedroom in my flat. At the end of the episode he gave this terrifying scream and tried to ward something off. I believe He’s been in hell ever since. I’m sure of it.

Now he’d been very cruel, and in his own words had “wrecked my life” and “completely destroyed your (mine) confidence”. But during the episode he said at one stage, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice”. I argued back, saying that couldn’t be right. He replied, “It’s right, all right! You can see that from here.” But later he admitted, “I was WILLING” (to be cruel - in fact, it was almost as though he’d written a policy statement, since he said he’d done what he did quite deliberately).

So there were two sides to the question - predestination and free will.

But a couple of later incidents which flowed from this make me wonder about “free will”.

I do two jobs, one of which is a part time taxi driving. A couple of years ago I happened to be driving in the area where he died. Since there’s been a fair amount of frustration, I prayed, “If there’s anything in what my father said that night, I’d like some sort of confirmation.” Now he died at an address called 7 Rivington Street, Nundah.

An hour or so later I was on a rank in the city (Brisbane which has over a million people). I waited my turn and then a bloke came towards me, a bit the worse for wear for drink. He got in the back and said “Nundah”. I said, “Whereabouts in Nundah”. He told me just to drive, and he’d direct me. So off we went. In due course, we arrived directly across the road from the flat where my father died.

Now I believe that was a bit of sign based on my earlier prayer, only an hour or two beforehand. Now we both had free will - I had to use my free will to be at the rank at the very same time as this bloke had to use his free will to get there at the same time, me sober, him slightly drunk. Yet here we were an hour or two later, in response to my prayer. That’s what I call subtle predestination.

I’ll give you another example. I used to debate atheists on a Google group. At one stage we were debating NDE (Near Death Experiences). Naturally I was getting nowhere, so I prayed I might meet someone who had experienced an NDE.

About two or three days later I was driving a Maxi Taxi in a suburb called Boondall. It was a bit quiet when a job suddenly appeared on the screen for a beachside suburb called Brighton. I procrastinated for a few minutes, but eventually went for it and got it. I went to a place called Eventide, a nursing village. When I got there I found a single bloke, about my age, who had only wanted an ordinary cab. He’d been about to give up when I arrived.

He wanted to got to Royal Brisbane Hospital,which was a fair distance. We’d only been going for a short distance, when he suddenly said, “I’m one of those rare people”. I asked him what he meant. It turned out he’d been technically dead for 10 minutes during an operation. I won’t go into the details too much. But what intrigued me even more was that he went to school with eldest son of the very same uncle who came to tell me my father was dead.

So there we have it - my prayer to meet an NDE person, then two or three days later, a glitch in the booking system reserves a meeting for me which should have gone to an ordinary cab without my even knowing about it, and I’m in a position to talk to this bloke for about half an hour, and he even has a sort of familial relation to my father’s death, or at lest my being humanly told about it.

That’s a bit tall to be coincidence. Yet at every step of the way there was free will involved - a customer wants to call a cab, an operator has the freedom to enter the data correctly or not, I have to be in reasonably close proximity, I have to choose to go for the job, and he has to choose to talk about his experience without my asking.

Predestination vs. free will? You tell me.

 

[4Horsemen]

I have a problem with this issue. I used to be Presbyterian, but as my first pastor was a Methodist by training, it was hardly ever mentioned. So it doesn’t come from religious indoctrination.

My reasons are more personal.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere that the night my father died, he appeared in my bedroom in my flat. At the end of the episode he gave this terrifying scream and tried to ward something off. I believe He’s been in hell ever since. I’m sure of it.

Now he’d been very cruel, and in his own words had “wrecked my life” and “completely destroyed your (mine) confidence”. But during the episode he said at one stage, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice”. I argued back, saying that couldn’t be right. He replied, “It’s right, all right! You can see that from here.” But later he admitted, “I was WILLING” (to be cruel - in fact, it was almost as though he’d written a policy statement, since he said he’d done what he did quite deliberately).

So there were two sides to the question - predestination and free will.
Predestination vs. free will? You tell me.

Hello Bob Crowley,

You certainly gave pertinent examples that, to me, demonstrated that although God knew of each incident beforehand (as well as the prayers said for the intentions mentioned), He didn’t interfere with free will. In the incident concerning your father (may God rest his soul), you seem to believe that his choices led him in the wrong direction to eternal punishment. My advice is to consider that the reason God allowed this apparition is that your father could really be in Purgatory and is crying out to you for prayers and sacrifice to obtain his release. You seem to think your interpretation of this event is final, even though it is not for us to know with certainty anyone’s salvation. Even Judas might have had a last moment realization and conversion. Besides, evil spirits can trick us into believing that which isn’t true (as many saints have testified, chiefly St. Teresa of Avila and St. Faustina, among others). Remember that the devil can appear as “an angel of light.”

To make this more personal, after my mother died, months later when my daughter came home from college, she was in her upstairs bedroom and I was in a downstairs room and both of us awakened during the night hearing a terrible, shocking “voice” that seemed to howl (about 8 times) by my mother’s room–she lived with us). We both came out of our rooms incredulous. I was fearful, yet hopeful in my belief that God allowed this to encourage more prayer and sacrifice for her soul, which I hope with all my heart is in Purgatory. I immediately set up more Masses (2 sets of Gregorian Masses, sets of 30, from two different monasteries plus single Masses at my parish). My mother was deeply religious yet had a prideful streak that manifested itself during her last years as she suffered from dementia. (This is a great grievance to me that I didn’t help her as much as I see I could have from this vantage point).

Continue to pray for your father and have Masses said. I wouldn’t necessarily think that the incident with the man needing a cab is “confirmation” about what your dad said. St. Teresa mentioned that even she was deceived, at times, thinking a vision was from God when it was from an evil spirit. She said that one way she was able to differentiate was the way the false visions gave her a feeling of pride–meaning a certain arrogance, I think, in being privy to supernatural events.

God bless you,
4Horsemen

 

[Bob_Crowley]

While I thank you for your concern for my father, he made the comment durng the proceedings that “It’s too late for me.” He even said “You’ll wonder if you should pray for me. It will be a waste of time.” Secondly the scream he gave was sheer terror. Purgatory is refinement, not terror. It may be very unpleasant, but it will probably be an unpleasantness that we agree to, since we will understand it’s object. His scream was quite hideous, so frightening I started to scream as well.

I suppose my Protestant background comes in here, but I also remember my old Pastor commenting “I think they (Catholics) soft pedal judgment”. And I think he was right.

The reason I’m so interested in knowing whether my father was accurate or not in what he said was that he made some predictions viz. that there’d be two nuclear wars, one limited and one all-out. He said the Moslems would start the first (in a sense) by “flying a couple of planes into a couple of buildings”. I suspect Pakistan might be the place for this.

He also said that Australia would have a war with Indonesia (something our armed forces train for regularly). He said “They’ll kill a lot of people”.

By way of a prediction that did come true - he commented, “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more.” Not long before the pastor died, he said to me in his office, “I own you an apology. You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!” I then reminded him about my father’s appearance, which I’d done before, but pointed out he had just echoed my father’s prediction almost word for word. He was rather shaken. Like I said the pastor was wise and prophetic, but he also had a tendency to discourage people. So that personal predicton was accurate.

There were some other predictions he made of a personal nature, which I’ll keep to myself for the moment. And I’m well aware of the subtlety of the spiritual world - it’s damn devious.